Damien

Arcane Mage 6.2

87 posts in this topic

Your statements on a burn phase not working at current gears levels and low levels of mastery compared to the bonus stacks are inconsistent. While I do not have all the numbers needed (mana regen per second, missile proc chance, and so on) to prove the following mathematically, i do know that based on the numbers from the tooltips a burn should work. The burn might be short, but basic math principles says works.

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Your statements on a burn phase not working at current gears levels and low levels of mastery compared to the bonus stacks are inconsistent. While I do not have all the numbers needed (mana regen per second, missile proc chance, and so on) to prove the following mathematically, i do know that based on the numbers from the tooltips a burn should work. The burn might be short, but basic math principles says works.

What is inconsistent in my statements?

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Your statements on a burn phase not working at current gears levels and low levels of mastery compared to the bonus stacks are inconsistent. While I do not have all the numbers needed (mana regen per second, missile proc chance, and so on) to prove the following mathematically, i do know that based on the numbers from the tooltips a burn should work. The burn might be short, but basic math principles says works.

Please share your math! Genuinely interested here? You used the Markov Chain approach?

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hey

 

just to say that the MoP flasks are 114 intellect while the cataclysme flasks gives you 119intellect

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hey

 

just to say that the MoP flasks are 114 intellect while the cataclysme flasks gives you 119intellect

We've been aware of that for some time, but we believe that this is unintended and is going to get fixed very soon. I wouldn't want to tell people to go and waste gold getting Cataclysm enchants and flask, only for them to find out 2 days later that they bought them for nothing.

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I have personally found it MUCH better to only use 2 missile procs at 4 arcane charges even if u have 3 missile procs. Reasons being is it maximizes your time at 4 stacks of arcane charges. 

 

The scenario often presented is you have 3 missile procs. You use only 2; leaving 1 left over. After you have channeled 2 missile procs u are back at full mana and have room to cast arcane blast 2 more times as well as refresh your nether tempest: providing a total of 3 opportunities to gain a second missile proc. Going with the chances you gain a second missile you channel you 2 missile procs and you are back at full mana, and again have room to cast 2 arcane blasts at full mana, from here you barrage dump and repeat. I found this to be the best rotation.

 

 

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So i have been experimenting with the rotations and have found that it is better to use 2 arcane missiles rather than dumping all 3; reason being is it maximizes your time at 4 stacks in conjunction with gaining full benefits of your mastery.

 

The scenario often presented is you are at 4 stacks with 3 missile procs; instead of dumping all 3, only use 2. After channeling your 2 missiles you should be back at full mana and have room to cast arcane blast 2 more times and refresh your nether tempest, giving you 3 opportunities to gain a second missile proc. Going with the chances you get a second missile proc, you channel your 2 missiles and again you are at full mana. From here you cast arcane blast a couple more times, barrage dump your stacks and repeat.

 

Also, only using missiles when you have at least 2 stacks. Using just 1 missile proc then using arcane blast then barrage dumping really messes with your rhythm throughout the rest of fight and hurts your dps. If you only have one stack of arcane missiles by the time you have reached 4 stacks and refreshed your nether tempest you should immediately barrage dump and save you 1 missile proc for your next 4 stack period.

Edited by Kicks

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I have personally found it MUCH better to only use 2 missile procs at 4 arcane charges even if u have 3 missile procs. Reasons being is it maximizes your time at 4 stacks of arcane charges. 

 

The scenario often presented is you have 3 missile procs. You use only 2; leaving 1 left over. After you have channeled 2 missile procs u are back at full mana and have room to cast arcane blast 2 more times as well as refresh your nether tempest: providing a total of 3 opportunities to gain a second missile proc. Going with the chances you gain a second missile you channel you 2 missile procs and you are back at full mana, and again have room to cast 2 arcane blasts at full mana, from here you barrage dump and repeat. I found this to be the best rotation.

This is more or less what the rotation in our guide tells you to do.

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This is more or less what the rotation in our guide tells you to do.

 

I think the guide is over all good, but i do think that the way it explains how to use arcane missiles is a little vague.

 

 

  1. Cast wow_icon_spell_nature_starfall.jpg Arcane Missiles, if you have 4 stacks of wow_icon_spell_arcane_arcane01.jpg Arcane Charge and 3 charges of Arcane Missiles.
  2. Cast wow_icon_spell_nature_starfall.jpg Arcane Missiles at 4 stacks of wow_icon_spell_arcane_arcane01.jpg Arcane Charge.

 

As explained in my original comment, using all 3 procs isn't nearly as good just using 2 since it greatly increases your time at 4 stacks of arcane charges. This is all from my personal testing and i saw quiet a difference when using this specific rotation. If you feel this guide is satisfactory then feel free to ignore me

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I think the guide is over all good, but i do think that the way it explains how to use arcane missiles is a little vague.

 

As explained in my original comment, using all 3 procs isn't nearly as good just using 2 since it greatly increases your time at 4 stacks of arcane charges. This is all from my personal testing and i saw quiet a difference when using this specific rotation. If you feel this guide is satisfactory then feel free to ignore me

That's because you think too much like a human and are extrapolating! tongue.png

Line 1. doesn't say "Cast Arcane Missiles 2 times" or "Cast Arcane Missiles 3 times". It says to cast Arcane Missiles only once, so you get rid of that 3rd charge and make room for another one. So what the guide advises you to do is to give "getting rid of your 3rd charge of Arcane Missiles" a high priority and give "getting rid of your other 2 charges of Arcane Missiles" a lower priority, lower than casting Arcane Blast when you're over 93% mana (to make the best of your 4 stacks of Arcane Charge, as you are suggesting).

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Most common way of handling though is castin 1x AM and 1x AB.
 

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I half/disagree with the use of Nether tempest for all situations AOE, simply because with supernova I offer more raid assistance. I'll give you a couple examples where Supernova has been shining, and I do just as much DPS.

 

First, trash mobs where the adds are weaker and there is one add that requires a lot of DPS. The single target bonus of Supernova (+100% increased damage on the main target) allows me to focus DPS on the main target while doing considerable damage to the adds around it.

 

This also translates well into fights with adds that have casters. The effect of knocking opponents up in the air is also an interrupt. Real life example? On Garrosh, mind controls are interrupted.

 

The other shining example of Supernova is when you're in a high DPS group and you're blowing through everything quickly. You don't have time to sit and drop arcane blasts to build up charges (I explain why I don't use cone of cold below).

 

On a 45 second CD with 2 charges, you can use arcane explosion and drop Supernova in between pulls.

 

For everything else, I use Nether Tempest because of the damage increase of arcane charges (+50% per charge).

 

Bottom line is that I believe Supernova actually does more damage in situations where you can't get up charges. In cases where you can, I only use it when I have four charges (bad practice probably, but my focus is getting up charges on longer fights first - I also explain why below).

 

Also, I don't use my missiles unless I have 2-3 charges. Right now I have the 4-set bonus and by waiting until I have 2-3 procs, arcane charges are x4 100% of the time and it becomes a rotations of missiles and re-applying NT. I don't drop all 3 when I have it either, I'll use 2, apply NT and that is where I see the most procs. I've had as many as 10 missiles in a row and I barely use any mana. I stay near 100% the whole time. 

 

Also, I don't use alter time anymore. I use Ice Barrier for the absorption and not getting interrupts while dropping Arcane Blasts to get my stacks up (DPS increase). For speed I use the Rapid Displacement glyph so I have 2 charges of blink.

 

I don't use Evanesce either. Don't need it with Ice barrier and rapid displacement (I explain those choices below).

 

I don't use cone of cold... not when you have an increased focus on multistrike and arcane blast with either NT or Supernova. There wouldn't be a need for it at all.

 

Being an arcane mage I think, in WoD will be all about sustaining your arcane charges for as long as possible, especially with a focus on multistrike. It's AOE hell on trash, and single target beast on bosses.

 

Also... I use 5 arcane blasts not four. Arcane charges increase the damage of the next spell used. First cast has no charges, so it boils down like this, AB(1) = 0 charges, AB(2) = 1 charge, AB(3) = 2 charges, AB(4) = 3 charges, AB(5) = max damage with 4 charges. If you stop at 4 blasts, you never get a blast off with maximum power.

 

If you have experience with mana utility, the mana loss is negligible compared to the damage gained.

 

Anyway, that's my 2 cents.

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I half/disagree with the use of Nether tempest for all situations AOE, simply because with supernova I offer more raid assistance. I'll give you a couple examples where Supernova has been shining, and I do just as much DPS.

 

First, trash mobs where the adds are weaker and there is one add that requires a lot of DPS. The single target bonus of Supernova (+100% increased damage on the main target) allows me to focus DPS on the main target while doing considerable damage to the adds around it.

 

This also translates well into fights with adds that have casters. The effect of knocking opponents up in the air is also an interrupt. Real life example? On Garrosh, mind controls are interrupted.

 

The other shining example of Supernova is when you're in a high DPS group and you're blowing through everything quickly. You don't have time to sit and drop arcane blasts to build up charges (I explain why I don't use cone of cold below).

 

On a 45 second CD with 2 charges, you can use arcane explosion and drop Supernova in between pulls.

 

For everything else, I use Nether Tempest because of the damage increase of arcane charges (+50% per charge).

 

Bottom line is that I believe Supernova actually does more damage in situations where you can't get up charges. In cases where you can, I only use it when I have four charges (bad practice probably, but my focus is getting up charges on longer fights first - I also explain why below).

 

Also, I don't use my missiles unless I have 2-3 charges. Right now I have the 4-set bonus and by waiting until I have 2-3 procs, arcane charges are x4 100% of the time and it becomes a rotations of missiles and re-applying NT. I don't drop all 3 when I have it either, I'll use 2, apply NT and that is where I see the most procs. I've had as many as 10 missiles in a row and I barely use any mana. I stay near 100% the whole time. 

 

Also, I don't use alter time anymore. I use Ice Barrier for the absorption and not getting interrupts while dropping Arcane Blasts to get my stacks up (DPS increase). For speed I use the Rapid Displacement glyph so I have 2 charges of blink.

 

I don't use Evanesce either. Don't need it with Ice barrier and rapid displacement (I explain those choices below).

 

I don't use cone of cold... not when you have an increased focus on multistrike and arcane blast with either NT or Supernova. There wouldn't be a need for it at all.

 

Being an arcane mage I think, in WoD will be all about sustaining your arcane charges for as long as possible, especially with a focus on multistrike. It's AOE hell on trash, and single target beast on bosses.

 

Also... I use 5 arcane blasts not four. Arcane charges increase the damage of the next spell used. First cast has no charges, so it boils down like this, AB(1) = 0 charges, AB(2) = 1 charge, AB(3) = 2 charges, AB(4) = 3 charges, AB(5) = max damage with 4 charges. If you stop at 4 blasts, you never get a blast off with maximum power.

 

If you have experience with mana utility, the mana loss is negligible compared to the damage gained.

 

Anyway, that's my 2 cents.

I modified the explanations for Tier 5 talents, to make some room for Supernova in multiple-target situations.

Regarding your Arcane Charge suggestions, I don't think anything in the guide goes against what you said.

I highly disagree with your take on Alter Time though. Ice Barrier costs a global cooldown to cast, so that's a DPS loss, when Alter Time is not.

I'm not sure I understand what you are trying to say regarding a "focus on multistrike".

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There are no situations when you do 5 Ablasts. You generally get AM in between so you can channel one AM and let mana get up. Sims show that the sweet spot is to start casting Arcane Blast when you are at 93% mana at the start of your cast. 
Not using CoC because of Multistrike??? And staying at 4 charges as long as possible? From my experience in WoD you rather want to cycle in between as fast as possible and get as many AM's out as possible at 4 charges.

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I modified the explanations for Tier 5 talents, to make some room for Supernova in multiple-target situations.

Regarding your Arcane Charge suggestions, I don't think anything in the guide goes against what you said.

I highly disagree with your take on Alter Time though. Ice Barrier costs a global cooldown to cast, so that's a DPS loss, when Alter Time is not.

I'm not sure I understand what you are trying to say regarding a "focus on multistrike".

 

There are no situations when you do 5 Ablasts. You generally get AM in between so you can channel one AM and let mana get up. Sims show that the sweet spot is to start casting Arcane Blast when you are at 93% mana at the start of your cast. 

Not using CoC because of Multistrike??? And staying at 4 charges as long as possible? From my experience in WoD you rather want to cycle in between as fast as possible and get as many AM's out as possible at 4 charges.

 

 

re-reading my own post I need to clarify a couple things. First of all, keep in mind that a lot of stuff is broken right now.

 

1. Arcane Blasts x5 - For me (572iL with 4 piece tier), going 5 blasts increased my damage output. That 5th blast drops between 19k and 20k damage with 4 stacks of Arcane Charge. I've seen it go as high as 23k damage and it added between 2k-3k DPS output.

 

That may change after WoD drops but for right now doing 5 AB is better than the standard rotation. By the time I get through to my missiles, I'm back to back at full mana anyway. Regen is just ridiculous.

2. My choice of Ice Barrier over Alter Time - in fights where you take damage, push-back and interrupts are * also a DPS loss, and at a 1.5 minute cool down, I get way more utility from Ice Barrier (25 second cool-down), than Alter Time. Even more so in high movement fights.

 

Two reasons for that.

 

a. If you're in a fight in which you take damage sooner than every 1.5 minutes, which is basically every fight now, then Ice Block is definitely the way to go.

 

b. With the increased cast time of arcane blasts (even with my enchants, it is 1.81 seconds), push-backs, which can happen up to two times before I finish cast is longer than the 1 second it takes for a global cool-down use, and with four casts, it's a bigger DPS loss to not have Ice Barrier.

 

The only reason to even use Alter Time now, since they removed the mana and buff effects is health, and for that, I have Greater Invisibility with the same cool-down as Alter Time (1.5 minutes).

 

You may drop more DPS standing on a dummy or in simulation but they don't account for real situations where you take damage and suffer from push-back and interruptions.

 

With the changes in 6.0, I whole heartedly believe that Ice Barrier should be the default choice here.

 

3. Focus on multistrike - by that I mean enhancements, multistrike, leech, versatility, etc. For mages, it is multistrike. For me, multistrike is almost 7% and by making sure that I sustain ACx4 for as long as possible, I see my blasts and explosions hitting multiple times, in between my rotations to barrage, (as in the reason why I say that I think * that sustaining 4 charges for as long as possible will be important to dps).

 

At 572iL on a dummy I'll drop anywhere from 16k to 21k DPS sustained, and do the same in a raid, and that is in between the use of arcane power.

 

On the first point, I may * go back to 4 blasts, but for right now, it's a DPS increase.

 

I hope that better explains why I'm coming at this the way that I am. I spend a lot of time on dummies, but when you get into a raid, it doesn't always work out to perfection. Some things I find I'm getting more damage from that the guide may not agree with. I gotta go with what works.

Edited by Athalos

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So, based on your stat priority, wouldnt you want to gem intellect + Stat? or am i wrong here

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So, based on your stat priority, wouldnt you want to gem intellect + Stat? or am i wrong here

No, because you get 10 of a secondary stat on a gem and only 5 of Intellect, so even though Intellect is better, point for point, than some secondary stats, it is not twice as good.

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Athalos, pushback does indeed offer a dps loss but
a) Casting Ice Barries is a GCD you aren't doing damage.

b)Ice Barrier breaks from all AoE not only spells that cause pushback damage. (and most do not)

 

There is absolutely no reason from a dps perspective to pick a GCD defensive over a non GCD defensive.

Considering the ABlast thing I'll have to do a bit more research. YOu might have a point.

 

Edit: Nope you have no point. If your mana regen is high enough that you have regenerated one Arcane Blasts worth of mana during the cast, then you could just as well got for a 6th, 7th, 8th cast.

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Athalos, pushback does indeed offer a dps loss but

a) Casting Ice Barries is a GCD you aren't doing damage.

b)Ice Barrier breaks from all AoE not only spells that cause pushback damage. (and most do not)

 

There is absolutely no reason from a dps perspective to pick a GCD defensive over a non GCD defensive.

Considering the ABlast thing I'll have to do a bit more research. YOu might have a point.

 

Edit: Nope you have no point. If your mana regen is high enough that you have regenerated one Arcane Blasts worth of mana during the cast, then you could just as well got for a 6th, 7th, 8th cast.

 

You don't do any damage in push-back either. Either way you're not doing damage. You're also* not doing damage when you're teleported back to where you are. AT works like blink that way. You can't cast mid blink.

 

(However, I can see someone using a macro [/cast Alter Time /cast Presence of Mind] on a full charge of missiles, then when you are teleported back you can open up with Arcane Barrage and an instant Arcane Blast) - there's an idea, but that's only good every minute and a half (every 3 minutes if you're using Glyph of Arcane Power).

 

Global CD aside, after using Ice Barrier all of your spells are available after 1 second, which means you have a 1 second stop in DPS. I get the reasoning and followed it too, but since they changed it, the question isn't about how long you're not going to be doing DPS, rather WHEN you're going to take damage.

 

You'd have to be able to predict when damage is coming for it to be effective, right? Otherwise you wasted it.

 

In a perfect case scenario where you don't take damage, why would you even need alter time or Ice Barrier?

 

To return to the position you started right? Provided of course you're not too far away like in a high movement fight, or the effect is negated.

 

So, if you know you're only going to take damage once every minute and a half, Alter Time will work great, but how many fights do you think are like that. One, maybe two? If you're not going to take damage at all you don't need either of them.

 

At best you can switch just for that fight. The rest of the time, if you're taking damage, you're losing DPS.

If you take damage once I can see the call for Alter Time because push-back is about the same - 1 second, but if you take damage more than once, what's doing to happen?

 

What if you take damage twice or more, that time accumulates and it will be much longer than 1 second.

 

Here's the best way I've been using Ice Barrier - when I get dotted on a fight and I'm taking damage every second.

 

My main spell is already longer than one second and I can't drop stacks because Greater Invisibility is on cool down - every cast is going to be pushed back, sometimes twice.

If I'm trying to get my Arcane Charges up then what? It's going to take even longer to get them up and I'm losing DPS the whole time that dot is on me. We're talking 4 or more seconds longer considering the cast is almost 2 seconds and you're taking damage per second.

 

That happens more often, a lot more often than only taking damage once every 1 and a half minutes.

 

And in those moments, I can get my stacks up and complete more rotations through the damage and I get more DPS.

 

That's just one real example.

 

Like I said, I understand the reasoning, but when it comes to fights where I take damage, whether it's dots, crap on the ground I'm moving out of, a tank turning to far and there's a cleave on group, or there are enemy abilities with multi-targets, or you're just too close, or a bad pull, or whatever else happens in almost every fight, Ice Barrier wins.

 

A 1 second cost of not doing damage is greater is any number of situations where you take damage sooner than 1.5 minutes.

I can't wait for a perfect storm to use Alter Time, not when I'm taking damage. When we had other shields (I really miss Mana Shield), Alter Time was great, but where we don't really have any other abilities that will stop damage?

I gotta go with what gives me more damage output.

As for 6, 7, 8, etc. casts of Arcane Blast... I rarely go below 93% and regen might be great, but that doesn't mean I get to waste mana either. a 5th blast won't compromise my mana pool. A 6th won't either depending on how much mana I have.

That I would say is something that would be specific to each mage.

It'll work for me, where I ride out arcane missiles and get 7-10 in a row, but maybe not work for you. The only way to really tell that is to test your limits in combat. Find that point where it's too much and hold back from going beyond it.

Damage and DPS is as much per-person (individual) as it is a template to follow.

For example, about 5 seconds before a hero, I'll use Evocation (for the 30% mana over time effect), followed by a supernova on the target for that 100% damage increase and I'll let Arcane Blast rip for 7 or 8 blasts and I won't drop below 93%.

But again, I can do that because I know where my limits are. If I were to go more than 8, I'd be losing a lot of DPS. 

With 7 or 8 I was able to drop around 34k DPS on Malkorok for a burst, and I've done higher from time to time (my best is 58k so far). Where we started Mythic I'm 575iL now, so again, it's that individual factor, but I know I wouldn't have been able to do it if it weren't for Ice Barrier protecting me from those interrupts.

We had someone not run out of the group on that fight, and the week before, a healer we pugged dispelled in the group. Alter Time wouldn't have stopped that.

Edited by Athalos

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Concerning your Ice Barrier reasoning, the idea of defensive CD's is that you won't have to use them. Healers should be able to cope with 18-20k damage every 25 seconds. The power of Alter Time is that you can use it to soak an ability that would bring you down to 10% and then get right back up.

Also what you have wrong is that dots don't trigger pushback, nor do channeled spells. The only thing that triggers spell pushback is auto attacks and general magic damage. Picking Ice Barrier will make you waste 3 GCD's every 25 second (and a GCD for Arcane at 100 will be more than 1 second due to haste levels) whereas alter time lets you soak a huge pool of damage for your group without letting it affect you. 
Also, you have to remember there are disc priests in the raid, so a portion of the cast mini-interrupts will be absorbed by their own absorbs. 
Imo Ice Barrier is more of a) Solo mobs out in the open talent, whereas Alter Time is a 1.5 minute Lay on Hands on yourself.

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If I kept Ice barrier up all the time as part of my rotation, you'd be correct. It would be a horrible DPS loss, but I don't.

 

What I'm advocating is the use of a flexible spell for when you take unpredictable damage sooner than a minute and a half, so your spell casting isn't interrupted.

 

During periods where you know you're going to take huge amounts of damage, Greater Invisibility will reduce damage by 90% both during, and for 3 seconds after you exit. And as it too has a cool down of 1.5 minutes, to me, it's a better choice than Alter Time anyway.

 

The only time I ever used Alter Time before the patch was as part of my burn phase. I'd wait until I had 2 stacks of missiles, drop mirror image, then blow Arcane Power and Alter Time and double up on my burn phase. Either that, or on Garrosh, use it before mind controls went out and it would drop it when I ported back.

 

But now, it's useless to me because it relies on too many IF situations to be viable.

 

You assume IF the healers can keep up with damage and IF you have the right combination of healers in the first place and IF their abilities aren't on cool down and IF you know when damage is coming, and IF it's not on cool down because you used it already and damage is happening faster than a minute and a half, and IF a lot of things.

 

Way too many assumptions for a minute and a half cool down, of which you already have one.

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Nah, I'm assuming healers can do their jobs. Ice barrier shields just a fickle of damage, so if they can't keep you up, even using it is not going to help the raid (a.k.a wipe). If you don't use it on cooldown, then you further devalue the value of the shield overal. Assume it would shield for 25k and you use it on CD you have 1k per second they have to heal you. However this is bound to break on the first type of AoE.  
Alter Time usage: 
On Tectus you can take a laser with AT, kite it to nigeria, reactivate Alter Time, be in position have fun dpsing.
On The Stone Hands guy, you can use it to reposition yourself behind a second crystal while being out of position.
Ice Barrier is just a spell that is simple to use, good at what it does, but in a raiding environment nowhere near as good as a 1.5 minute cooldown taht resets both Health and positioning. 
There is only 1 time when IB > AT which is when you have to take damage during an instance that exceeds your health pool. Then and only then would IB > AT IF you don't have a disc priest that can shield you from it.
Oh and IB>AT on any questing you do of course :P

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I've been in too many raids where there isn't a discipline priest and healers that aren't so hot, or tanks that require extra attention from healers. I'm not using IB for damage mitigation, but interruption protection during damage periods.

 

For big damage moments Greater Invisibility is what I prefer, and I rarely ever have to move further than a blink away. To me AT is just a bit redundant.

 

Then again, that's kinda why they made a lot of changes, so there's more than one way to skin a cat.

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Maybe this has been answered before, but a brief search turned up nothing for me, does taking mastery beyond 100% do anything for arcane mages or is it wasted stats at that point?

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      "Looks like an early version of Howling Fjord is tucked away inside UK. I can't believe how many secrets are hidden away inside the instanced versions of dungeons"

      "I eventually worked up the courage to actually explore GM island, so I busted out my old "bridge" file. One of my "mates" said in "type /who gm island" in trade chat, I was spammed with randoms asking how I got there. I quickly logged off in terror."
       
      Big thanks to jarrodnb for sharing (part of) his exploration journey and reminding us of our own exploration attempts (even if it was just swimming around the edges of the continents)!
    • By Damien
      This thread is for comments about our Dragon Priest No Cleric Gadgetzan Standard Deck,