Niix

Warlords of Draenor, Blizzcon and more.

67 posts in this topic

As you guys can probably tell, my Pre-Expansion hunter guide has been unpinned and is being replaced by the new guide at the top of the forums which will hold all relevant information about WoD.

 

Thank you to everyone who contributed to the discussion within that guide as well as the transition guide, they have over 150k views in total which is fucking amazing that so many people have seen it. I'd give you all a freaking hug if I could.

 

But now I have to turn my sights towards Warlords. The guide that is currently posted is absolutely baren. I've not run any sims yet and don't plan to until the game is released and I can do some hands on testing, any additional sections you all would like to see, feel free to comment below on that topic and I will see if I can fit it in somewhere.

 

Blizzcon is coming up next week and I'm curious how many of you are going to be in attendance. I'm getting there with many of the other Icy Veins mods and guildies on Thursday afternoon. I'd gladly meet up with any of you if you're interested. I know there's a little hunter meetup and I'll probably be in attendance at some point.

 

Thank you all for a great tier and I hope to see this forum explode when Warlords releases.

 

 

On to Draenor,

Niix

1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

About additional sections: I'd like you to research the possibility of MMs once again having haste plateaus and strict rotations:

zlokqs.jpg

 

This was the case for us in Cataclysm Tier 11, explained here: http://www.warcrafthuntersunion.com/2011/03/mm-hunter-rotation-haste-plateaus/

 

There are several complications that would require adjustment:

  1. For predictability, we would want to roll with Steady Focus instead of TotH. 
  2. We can no longer reforge our gear. However, I'm hearing we'll be able to reroll secondary stats using some sort of consumable?.. And considering all gems only have secondary stats, and all sockets are prismatic, we can swap haste and crit gems as we need instead of reforging. 
  3. Aimed Shot criticals will refund focus, but that's not such a huge issue, it will probably mean that you just cast one SS less per cycle or something. Something to keep an eye on, but nothing we can't deal with. Probably. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

About additional sections: I'd like you to research the possibility of MMs once again having haste plateaus and strict rotations:

zlokqs.jpg

 

This was the case for us in Cataclysm Tier 11, explained here: http://www.warcrafthuntersunion.com/2011/03/mm-hunter-rotation-haste-plateaus/

 

There are several complications that would require adjustment:

  1. For predictability, we would want to roll with Steady Focus instead of TotH. 
  2. We can no longer reforge our gear. However, I'm hearing we'll be able to reroll secondary stats using some sort of consumable?.. And considering all gems only have secondary stats, and all sockets are prismatic, we can swap haste and crit gems as we need instead of reforging. 
  3. Aimed Shot criticals will refund focus, but that's not such a huge issue, it will probably mean that you just cast one SS less per cycle or something. Something to keep an eye on, but nothing we can't deal with. Probably. 

 

 

This is actually interesting. The thought of having a rotation again seems unlikely with the set bonuses for MM. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This is actually interesting. The thought of having a rotation again seems unlikely with the set bonuses for MM. 

Well it could be a while before we collect the T17, but MM WoD passive certainly complicates things. In fact, I'm almost sure that blizzard decided to introduce this passive specifically so we don't have rotations. However, increased focus cap means we'll have a certain leeway in terms of focus regeneration: we can ignore a couple of AiS criticals and just operate with a bit of focus accumulated, and then just fire off an extra AiS instead of a steady.

 

I tried to do a few calculations yesterday, but I was thrown off by an inconsistency: for some unknown reason my real AiS cast time and calculated AiS cast time were different. 

Edited by Iridar
1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This is actually interesting. The thought of having a rotation again seems unlikely with the set bonuses for MM. 

 

I agree with Niix.  Given that AiS crits are going to be refunding 20 Focus from our Perk and 15 from our Tier set, having a "set" rotation is going to lead to massive amounts of Focus capping, I feel. 

Also, how do Barrage/GT work into the "rotation"?

Let's not forget that temporary Haste boosts (e.g. Lust/Hero) are going to completely change the timings of all your shots, meaning you could fit more shots in, so you would need two different "rotations", one for BL and one without.  Same goes for Rapid Fire, would need a Rapid Fire rotation, and a non-RF rotation.  Basically, you would need to be constantly checking your Haste during the battle and adjusting your rotation based on all your temporary Haste bonuses, at which point, is it really a rotation anymore?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I tried to do a few calculations yesterday, but I was thrown off by an inconsistency: for some unknown reason my real AiS cast time and calculated AiS cast time were different. 

Not sure how you're calculating how haste effects cast time, so I'll go ahead and lay it out here (and if you do know this, then it's for all who don't).  Cast Time = Base_Cast_Time / (1+Haste).  So, I'm going to use a base of 20% haste and Aimed Shot's 2.5s Base Cast Time.  This gives us: Cast Time = 2.5/(1+.2) = 2.083s.  Now, haste buffs are multiplicative, which can be a bit hard to understand at first.  Your haste while under a haste buff is as such: Haste = (1+base_haste)*(1+haste_buff).  So, this means that with our supposed 20% and, say, Heroism, we get: Haste = (1+.2)*(1+.3) = 1.56, or 56% haste.  This in turn makes Aimed Shot's cast time as follows: 2.5 / (1.2*1.3 -or- 1.56) = 1.60s.  Add Rapid Fire (but not hero) and our Haste is 68% (1.2*1.4 = 1.68) and Aimed Shot's Cast Time is 1.488s.  With both RF and Hero, our Haste = 1.2*1.3*1.4 = 2.184, or 118.4% (since they all stack up multiplicatively) and Aimed Shot's Cast Time is 1.145s.

The two bolded formulas are the ones that are most important with anything regarding haste.

1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I agree with Niix.  Given that AiS crits are going to be refunding 20 Focus from our Perk and 15 from our Tier set, having a "set" rotation is going to lead to massive amounts of Focus capping, I feel. 

Also, how do Barrage/GT work into the "rotation"?

Let's not forget that temporary Haste boosts (e.g. Lust/Hero) are going to completely change the timings of all your shots, meaning you could fit more shots in, so you would need two different "rotations", one for BL and one without.  Same goes for Rapid Fire, would need a Rapid Fire rotation, and a non-RF rotation.  Basically, you would need to be constantly checking your Haste during the battle and adjusting your rotation based on all your temporary Haste bonuses, at which point, is it really a rotation anymore?

Well it's not  THAT rigid like "always cast 3 SS and 2 AiS between two chimaeras". More like a base cycle. When / if it becomes too focus-positive, you can cast an extra AiS instead of SS.

 

Barrage costs only 10 more focus than AiS, and has a comparable cast time, so it can be used instead of AiS when it's appropriate, it will also make the cycle a bit more focus-negative. 

 

GT would be harder to incorporate, since it's only one GCD, and we don't have any other 1 GCD abilities we could combine with it to get a sort of 2 second cast time ability, which would be comparable to AiS time. 

 

However, current sims show GT barely superior in single target to Barrage, so this "rotation" type of play could just always use Barrage. 

 

Yes, RF, BL and Careful Aim will alter our rotation. This always was the case for MM since the cataclysm, when haste plateaus were a thing. Didn't stop us then, don't see why it should stop us now. RF and BL are usually short compared to overall fight length. During them we can revert to "priority list" of spamming as many AiS as we can, and when they are over just return to base cycle. This how it was played then.

 

20 higher focus cap will help us not to overcap. In fact, I can pretty much hold the rotation without overcapping right now, the only issue is whether this, in fact, superior to TotH priority list. My problem with TotH is that it's completely random, whereas Steady Focus is more stable and predictable, which used to be MM's trademark. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Not sure how you're calculating how haste effects cast time, so I'll go ahead and lay it out here (and if you do know this, then it's for all who don't).  Cast Time = Base_Cast_Time / (1+Haste).  So, I'm going to use a base of 20% haste and Aimed Shot's 2.5s Base Cast Time.  This gives us: Cast Time = 2.5/(1+.2) = 2.083s.  Now, haste buffs are multiplicative, which can be a bit hard to understand at first.  Your haste while under a haste buff is as such: Haste = (1+base_haste)*(1+haste_buff).  So, this means that with our supposed 20% and, say, Heroism, we get: Haste = (1+.2)*(1+.3) = 1.56, or 56% haste.  This in turn makes Aimed Shot's cast time as follows: 2.5 / (1.2*1.3 -or- 1.56) = 1.60s.  Add Rapid Fire (but not hero) and our Haste is 68% (1.2*1.4 = 1.68) and Aimed Shot's Cast Time is 1.488s.  With both RF and Hero, our Haste = 1.2*1.3*1.4 = 2.184, or 118.4% (since they all stack up multiplicatively) and Aimed Shot's Cast Time is 1.145s.

The two bolded formulas are the ones that are most important with anything regarding haste.

Thanks, this helps, I was using an incorrect formula. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
However, current sims show GT barely superior in single target to Barrage, so this "rotation" type of play could just always use Barrage.

When did this happen? GT is 288% AP every 15 seconds. Barrage is 960% weapon damage over 3 second, or 320% WD-per-sec, (affected by Haste) every 20 seconds.  Granted Barrage's cost makes it more difficult to use, but used ideally, I can't see where GT would overtake Barr, I could be wrong here though.

 

20 higher focus cap will help us not to overcap. In fact, I can pretty much hold the rotation without overcapping right now, the only issue is whether this, in fact, superior to TotH priority list. My problem with TotH is that it's completely random, whereas Steady Focus is more stable and predictable, which used to be MM's trademark.

 

 

To be honest, I think a completely predictable rotation is incredibly boring.  THis is part of what my MoP Survival so fun, procs.  Granted MM doesnt really have any of those, but ToTH helps. 

 

Also consider that ToTH is going to synergize incredibly well with our 2 and 4 piece tier sets.  During Rapid Fire, your bonus crit damage will go through and the roof, and it you save RF for ToTH procs, you can get 3, "free", guaranteed crits (or almost), with ridiculously short cast times, assuming they all crit, you could get 6 AiS shots in a row for the cost of 45 Focus (3 "free" + 3 refunding 35 Focus), thats nuts.  WIth 120 Focus, that means with a ToTH + RF window, you should be able to cast 2 CSes and at least 7-8 AiSes, depnding on your personal Haste and if Hero/Lust is up.  I feel like giving us this kind of incredible burst to have a set rotation is really going to really hurt, DPS-wise.

 

Even so, I think the number of caveats for the rotation to work in such a "set" manner just isn't going to play out long-term.  It seems like there are so many exceptions being thrown in, that it basically becomes a priority system again.

Edited by Atrais

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

All work I'm currently doing is for level 100. I've entirely stopped doing level 90 simc work because I frankly don't give a shit about trying to minmax this content anymore.

 

I'll bring up why Glaive Toss is better than Barrage for MM.

 

One, it is very very sensitive to it's focus cost.

 

Two, we will have WAY lower haste, and taking nearly 3 full globals to get a cast of drastically reduces the value of Barrage's damage.

 

This is PURELY on single target. On AoE obviously Barrage is going to be more valuable since it does a decent amount of damage to multiple targets.

 

Single Target:

 

SYMVQjl.png

 

 

2 Target Cleave:

 

eHbE40L.png

 

 

4 Target Cleave:

 

jK4xUju.png

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

All work I'm currently doing is for level 100. I've entirely stopped doing level 90 simc work because I frankly don't give a shit about trying to minmax this content anymore.

 

I'll bring up why Glaive Toss is better than Barrage for MM.

 

One, it is very very sensitive to it's focus cost.

 

Two, we will have WAY lower haste, and taking nearly 3 full globals to get a cast of drastically reduces the value of Barrage's damage.

 

This is PURELY on single target. On AoE obviously Barrage is going to be more valuable since it does a decent amount of damage to multiple targets.

 

Single Target:

 

SYMVQjl.png

 

 

2 Target Cleave:

 

eHbE40L.png

 

 

4 Target Cleave:

 

jK4xUju.png

 

 

Thanks for setting me straight, Niix, I hadnt considered how much lower our Haste will be.  Surprising that GT isn't really even far behind on 4-target fights, although that does require you to ensure the Glaives pass through every target, which isn't always possible.

1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

To be honest, I think a completely predictable rotation is incredibly boring.  THis is part of what my MoP Survival so fun, procs.  Granted MM doesnt really have any of those, but ToTH helps. 

 

I think the number of caveats for the rotation to work in such a "set" manner just isn't going to play out long-term.  It seems like there are so many exceptions being thrown in, that it basically becomes a priority system again.

Perhaps I started this all wrong by saying a red flag words of "strict rotation". Think of it like this. 

 

We have two casts: AiS and SS. It makes sense to have a specific amount of haste just so you're casting Chimaera exactly as it comes off CD, after you make X casts of AiS and SS.

Not half a second later, and without downtime - waiting for Chimaera to come off CD. This is a sort of our haste cap, or what Frostheim called "Haste Plateau".  

 

Now, current situation indicates that Steady Focus is superior for long fights. It seems that sims predicted a lower uptime on Steady Focus buff than what real raiders can accomplish. Probably due to incorrect priority set in the simulationcraft, not adjusted for the specifics of Steady Focus. 

 

Steady Focus lasts 10 seconds. Chimaera's CD is 9 seconds. So to ensure optimal uptime on SF buff we want to make at least two back-to-back Steady Shots inbetween two Chimaeras.

 

This part so far is entirely predictable. It's the rest of the time we will be weighing focus, and making decisions which shot to cast next. There's nothing "boring" or "skilless" here. It's not any different from our "normal" priority list with TotH - we can predict we will cast SS and AiS inbetween Chimaera's too, after all, we just would have a bit more freedom in choosing the order. 

---

Now let's talk about a specific case where being mindful of the haste can help distribute stats better. 

 

So, we want to cast 1 Chimaera and 2 SS every 9 seconds. This allows us to gain 14 * 2 focus. Steady focus increases passive focus regen by 50%, so we'll also regen 4 * 1.5 * Haste * 9 seconds. 

SS cast time: 1.41

AiS cast time: 1.76

 

With my raid buffed haste of 41.44%, I will regen 76 focus + 28 from 2 x SS = 104 focus. 

 

So we will have: 1.41 * 2 + 1.76 * 2 + 1 = 7.34.

"1" is the GCD after casting Chimaera. So out of 9 seconds we're left with the 1.66 downtime. This can be an extra SS, which will mean a downtime of 0.25 before casting Chimaera, or this can be an extra AiS, which will mean a delay of 0.1. 

 

It makes sense to slightly adjust Haste to reduce either downtime or delay. Reforging is out, but we still can use gems.

---

Now let's do some focus balancing to understand which is better - to correct the delay, or the downtime (which we will encounter more often):

 

1 Chim, 3 SS and 2 AiS

Focus gained: 14 * 3 + 76 = 118 

Focus expended: 35 + 50 * 2 = 135

Time: 1.41 * 3 + 1.76 * 2 + 1 = 8.75. We want this value to be as close to 9 as possible.

This sequence is focus negative, provided none of the AiS critted and returned 20 Focus, which would make this rotation focus positive. 

 

1 Chim, 2 SS and 3 AiS

Focus gained: 14 * 2 + 76 = 104 

Focus expended: 35 + 150 = 185 

Time: 1.41 * 2 + 1.76 * 3 + 1 = 9.1

This sequence is very focus negative, and will remain focus negative even if all 3 AiS crit (unless you're wearing T17 2pc). 

 

1 Chim, 4 SS and 1 AiS

Focus gained: 14 * 4 + 76 = 132

Focus expended: 35 + 50 = 85

Time: 1.41 * 4 + 1.76 + 1 = 8.4

This sequence is very focus positive; with AiS crits refunding Focus, this is something we should rarely have to use when we get enough crit. 

 

These are 3 basic sequences; haste levels should be adjusted to reduce the downtime / Chimera delay of the sequence we will use most often. Which will it be - depends on crit levels / whether we have T17 2pc. 

 

These sequences are just an example of a possibility, they don't take into account Barrage / GT / KS, which would alter the focus balance. But incorporating Barrage / GT into them wouldn't be THAT hard, both of them are simply cast every second cycle. 

 

It may seem unnecessarily convoluted, but really, it's not anymore than a priority list: you just notice on your focus bar whether you're focus positive or focus negative and then choose the appropriate sequence. The thought, conscious mind and careful monitoring of the AiS crit focus returns will be very important, while minimizing common rotational errors. 

 

The core difference from normal priority list is that you don't just think what shot will you cast next, you will also have a plan what shots will you cast after the next one. 

 

"After casting Chimaera I have 40 focus. This means I can cast 2 SS without capping, then 1 AiS, 1 SS, 1 AiS and Chimaera right after that. Whatever focus returns on AiS crits I will have, I can deal in next cycle". You have a solid, optimal shot sequence planned ahead for 9 seconds. This allows you to focus your attention on movement and boss mechanics rather than going through priority list in your head each GCD. 

 

I agree, making a choice between several 9 second sequences doesn't sound as exciting as making a shot choice each second according to a priority list, but as raiders we should use whatever merits the highest DPS, not what brings the most excitement. 

Edited by Iridar

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Now, current situation indicates that Steady Focus is superior for long fights. It seems that sims predicted a lower uptime on Steady Focus buff than what real raiders can accomplish. Probably due to incorrect priority set in the simulationcraft, not adjusted for the specifics of Steady Focus.

 

 

For the next week maybe, ToTH is simming higher at level 100 for every SiM I have seen, which makes complete sense because of how it synergizes with our Tier 17 2-piece bonus and our 92+ perk.  We get AiS that cost 7 Focus when they crit, yet still retain an 18% chance to proc ToTH again.  During the first part of the fight (BOss > 80%) and RF, our burst is going to be insane, we'll be seeing CS windows with nothing but AiS casts in-between, based on our Haste and luck.  I will be rockin the Thrill for the first couple weeks for sure, unless something changes.

 

It may seem unnecessarily convoluted, but really, it's not anymore than a priority list: you just notice on your focus bar whether you're focus positive or focus negative and then choose the appropriate sequence. The thought, conscious mind and careful monitoring of the AiS crit focus returns will be very important, while minimizing common rotational errors.

 

 

This was the point I am trying to make.  You seem to be going into a ton of work defining and memorizing a series of set mini-rotations for CS windows which, at the end of the day, are really more-complex priority systems.  Also, as you pointed out, you have definied three different situation rotationals for just our three core abilities, once you add in "Boss > 80%" rotation, RF rotation, GT being slipped in somehow (CD doesnt mesh with CS windows), KS on boss, adds, etc. you are going to have 8-10 mini-rotations that you need to switch between, which is basically just a priority system with 5-6 moves instead of 1.

 

The core difference from normal priority list is that you don't just think what shot will you cast next, you will also have a plan what shots will you cast after the next one.

 

 

Then, really what you are defining is a priority system that takes into account more than one ability, I think that's great. The flowcharts I created yesterday werent meant to exist in a vaccuum, you need to consider not just what ability you press next but what might be available after it.  My flowchart helps you do that as well, over time what is a seemingly large and daunting series of steps becomes second nature.  You learn naturally that if you have > 60 Focus and CS is up in 2-3 seconds, you do AiS followed by an immediate CS.  THis is what I was trying to facilitate.  Thats also why I try to define different priorities based on time remaining for key abilities, and why I try to always leave a Focus buffer to ensure enough Focus is always available.

What I am hesitant to buy into is the idea that we can define "optimal" rotations ahead of time and execute those consistently during boss fights that will include a variety of different mechanics, adds, cleave, heavy movement, possible use of Deterrence and other Def CDs, etc.  GOing into a fight with a pre-determine rotation is a recipe for disaster in my book, because it ignores that importance of reacting to the fight and changing accordingly. 

As we progress through Tier 17 I will be updating my priority flowcharts taking advice from this forum, my own experiences, and possibly even  developing specialized flowcharts for each boss fight.  I highly encourage you to do the same with your CS-window rotations, I will be interested in seeing what develops!

 

EDIT -

One thing that could be cool would be to combine our ideas: flowcharts and CS window rotations.  Use the example I had before, > 60 Focus and CS up in 2-3 seconds.  The optimal mini-rotation in that case would typically be AiS->CS.  It would be interesting to see if we could have a flowchart priority system with some mini-rotations defined for the periods where it makes sense to and to have simple one-ability priorities for periods when it doesn't make sense to (e.g. during KS range).

Edited by Atrais

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
 

For the next week maybe, ToTH is simming higher at level 100 for every SiM I have seen, which makes complete sense because of how it synergizes with our Tier 17 2-piece bonus and our 92+ perk.  We get AiS that cost 7 Focus when they crit, yet still retain an 18% chance to proc ToTH again.  During the first part of the fight (BOss > 80%) and RF, our burst is going to be insane, we'll be seeing CS windows with nothing but AiS casts in-between, based on our Haste and luck. 

I'm a bit hesitant about that part:
1) The return of MoP-BM-style burst isn't something I'd like to see, where we would have 250k+ DPS for the first 20 seconds of the fight (Stampede + double Bestial Wrath), then slide into nothingness until KS phase. 
 
2) First few seconds of the fight everyone in the raid will use their DPS cooldowns, and, especially if the Heroism is used right after the pull, the CA phase will be over relatively quickly, and the beginning of the fight is often the easiest part anyway. 
 
3) Consistency is important. I value steady DPS more than burst / proc DPS. I imagine the feeling of casting 4-5 AiS back to back between 2 CS will be very fulfilling, but if it means being able to DPS down an add on one pull because TotH procced, and unable to do so on another pull because TotH didn't proc, I'd rather not use it. 
 
4) How useful the >80% burst is anyway? It's just something I thought about during last raid, on Paragons of Klaxxi. There are many opportunities for cleaving bosses there, but since each Paragon heals to full once another Paragon is killed, cleaving is useless. We still do it anyway with our CS and Barrage / GT, because we use them even on single target. This bloats our DPS, but we're not doing anything useful with it. 
 
The super high burst during first 20% is something similar in my mind. Yeah, we can do ungodly amount of damage during that phase, but what if it means that we will spend more time killing the target once those first 20% are gone? 

 

This was the point I am trying to make.  You seem to be going into a ton of work defining and memorizing a series of set mini-rotations for CS windows which, at the end of the day, are really more-complex priority systems.  

These sequences aren't really that diffirent, you don't have to memorize that much info. They all have 1 CS, 2 SS and 1 AiS. The only variable is what 2 abilities you will use during the last ~3 seconds: 2 SS / 2 AiS / 1 SS and 1 AiS.

 

you have definied three different situation rotationals for just our three core abilities, once you add in "Boss > 80%" rotation, RF rotation, GT being slipped in somehow (CD doesnt mesh with CS windows), KS on boss, adds, etc. you are going to have 8-10 mini-rotations that you need to switch between, which is basically just a priority system with 5-6 moves instead of 1.

No, there won't be 8-10 mini rotations. There are just 3 normal sequences: focus negative, very focus negative and very focus positive. During normal CA phase (without bonus haste), you will just use very focus negative sequence more often due to focus returns from AiS crits. 

 

With bonus haste you you just revert to the normal priority system. These two ways of playing don't exclude each other. Look at it this way: ideally, you want to be casting in these sequences. If you can't for whatever reason*, you use priority list, making on-the-fly decisions. But your goal is to return to sequences ASAP, simply because they're optimal and allow you to focus on the fight mechanics instead, because you can predict what shots you will be casting during next 10 seconds anyway. 

 

* - overcapping on focus even with just 2 SS per cycle can be one of the reasons. Other reasons you mentioned yourself:

 

 "variety of different mechanics, adds, cleave, heavy movement, possible use of Deterrence and other Def CDs, etc. " 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1) The return of MoP-BM-style burst isn't something I'd like to see, where we would have 250k+ DPS for the first 20 seconds of the fight (Stampede + double Bestial Wrath), then slide into nothingness until KS phase. 
 
2) First few seconds of the fight everyone in the raid will use their DPS cooldowns, and, especially if the Heroism is used right after the pull, the CA phase will be over relatively quickly, and the beginning of the fight is often the easiest part anyway.

 

 

"Nothingness" is a bit of an exaggeration, both BM and SV did just fine outside of Stampede CDs in MoP, we just burst much higher with it.  Regardless, if we do more overall damage by bursting inside CA windows, then its more useful for your raid to be bursty.  CA is applied during RF too, just not when the boss is > 80%.  THis is why you save RF for sub-80% unless you have large trinket procs.

 

3) Consistency is important. I value steady DPS more than burst / proc DPS. I imagine the feeling of casting 4-5 AiS back to back between 2 CS will be very fulfilling, but if it means being able to DPS down an add on one pull because TotH procced, and unable to do so on another pull because TotH didn't proc, I'd rather not use it.

 

 

As a DPS class, IMO, doing the most DPS is important.  Just because we will burst like crazy during CA windows doesnt mean our DPS will be crap otherwise.  I would rather be bursty during RF windows if it means doing more Overall DPS for my raid.  ToTH is parsing highest on all the Sims right now for Tier 17, so I find it hard to believe it won't be able to down adds significantly.  There is some RNG there, sure, but that just makes the rotation more challenging and exciting, rather than jsut memorizing a set pattern.  Honestly, it's kind of sad that MM is one of the few DPS classes without a single proc to watch for, the mere fact that a "set rotation" is even conceivable is kind of disappointing.

 

4) How useful the >80% burst is anyway? It's just something I thought about during last raid, on Paragons of Klaxxi. There are many opportunities for cleaving bosses there, but since each Paragon heals to full once another Paragon is killed, cleaving is useless. We still do it anyway with our CS and Barrage / GT, because we use them even on single target. This bloats our DPS, but we're not doing anything useful with it.

 

 

Incredibly useful when you dont massively overgear the raids like we do now.  Also, we dont jsut burst when boss > 80%, we do it inside RF windows too.  Both of our Tier bonuses synergize incredibly well with bursting during CA windows, I believe it will prove the highest DPS.  Also, dont forget adds.  When adds spawn, they come in at full health, and thus 100% crit chance.

 

No, there won't be 8-10 mini rotations. There are just 3 normal sequences: focus negative, very focus negative and very focus positive. During normal CA phase (without bonus haste), you will just use very focus negative sequence more often due to focus returns from AiS crits.

 

There will be though, with the Tier 17 set and the perk.  Your Aimed Shot crits are going to be returning so much Focus that you are going to have to change your rotation based on how much Focus they return.  Furthermore, GT/Barrage is going to impact every other "mini-rotation", so they have to be incoporated somewhere.  The more caveats we throw in here, the more quickly it's becoming a priority system again :)
 

 

With bonus haste you you just revert to the normal priority system. These two ways of playing don't exclude each other. Look at it this way: ideally, you want to be casting in these sequences. If you can't for whatever reason*, you use priority list, making on-the-fly decisions. But your goal is to return to sequences ASAP, simply because they're optimal and allow you to focus on the fight mechanics instead, because you can predict what shots you will be casting during next 10 seconds anyway.

 

Even so, I find it hard to believe that these rotations, even ignoring all the external factors, will ALWAYS provide the highest DPS, because they don't include GT/Barrage and will have to be adjusted mid-rotation based on Aimed Shot focus refunds. I feel like given that, and the external factors you mentioned, we will have little opportunity for this "ideal" rotation and will have to naturally revert to a priority system for 90% of the fight.  Sure, if you can stand still and focus one boss while ignoring raid mechanics, and if you arent getting flooded with excess Focus, you might be able to pull off a couple of these rotations, but I think we are going to quickly find that isn't possible for a majority of fights.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

THis is why you save RF for sub-80% unless you have large trinket procs.

You don't save rapid fire regardless. If you did you'd lose out on an entire cast. The trinket procs are gonna be there in the opener all the time so you'd never save it. On high HP adds save it though.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There will be though, with the Tier 17 set and the perk.  Your Aimed Shot crits are going to be returning so much Focus that you are going to have to change your rotation based on how much Focus they return.  Furthermore, GT/Barrage is going to impact every other "mini-rotation", so they have to be incoporated somewhere.  The more caveats we throw in here, the more quickly it's becoming a priority system again smile.png

Barrage is easily incorporated in every second-third cycle instead of one of the AiS. This is easy, because we cast at least one AiS each cycle anyway. Barrage will be taking its place. Barage's cast is a bit longer than AiS', so we won't be able to optimize haste for it, so we're likely to delay Chimaera by 0.2-0.4 seconds for Barrage cast, but it's not a huge issue. Barrage is a bit more expensive than AiS, so the cycle will be a bit more focus negative. Nothing we can't account for. 

 

GT will be a bit trickier to introduce, and it's unlikely we'll be able to both cast it on CD and hold the CS and SF cycle. So for this style it will be inferior to Barrage. Note: not for "cycle" style, but for Steady Focus overall. 

 

In fact, being locked to casting 2x SS each CS is the only negative side of Steady Focus, because real players would often delay Chimaera to get those 2x SS casts off, or let the Steady Focus buff fall. Thinking in cycles helps minimize these errors. 

 

Like I said before, TotH sims higher because simulationcraft can't ensure high enough uptime on the Steady Focus.  With these cycles we should be able to have a near 100% uptime on Steady Focus in ideal conditions, while the latest version of simulationcraft can manage only 55%. If we'd taught simulationcraft to think in these cycles, I'm sure we'd see Steady Focus perform higher or on par with TotH. 

 

I feel like given that, and the external factors you mentioned, we will have little opportunity for this "ideal" rotation and will have to naturally revert to a priority system for 90% of the fight.  Sure, if you can stand still and focus one boss while ignoring raid mechanics, and if you arent getting flooded with excess Focus, you might be able to pull off a couple of these rotations, but I think we are going to quickly find that isn't possible for a majority of fights.

 

You're saying this like I'm trying to create something new here. We already had all this at the beginning of cataclysm, and I already raided like that, and this wasn't "90% priority, 10% sequences". More like 70/30 or 60/40 in favor of cycles. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Barrage is easily incorporated in every second-third cycle instead of one of the AiS. This is easy, because we cast at least one AiS each cycle anyway. Barrage will be taking its place. Barage's cast is a bit longer than AiS', so we won't be able to optimize haste for it, so we're likely to delay Chimaera by 0.2-0.4 seconds for Barrage cast, but it's not a huge issue. Barrage is a bit more expensive than AiS, so the cycle will be a bit more focus negative. Nothing we can't account for.

 

 

My point was that you will now have to have two different rotations, one with Barrage, one without.  So now we have a focus positive rotation w/Barrage, focus positive without Barrage, focus negative w/Barrage, etc.  Also, Barrage's 20 sec CD does not line up with CS's 9 second cooldown, so it's never going to be fired at the same "position" in your rotation.  SOmetimes it might be the first ability you fire, other times it might be the last.  There is no way to accurate predict where GT or Barrage will fall, and delaying either is a DPS loss (outside of CA, of course)

 

Like I said before, TotH sims higher because simulationcraft can't ensure high enough uptime on the Steady Focus.

 

 

Not saying you're wrong, but I would like to see some proof of this.  I contend that ToTH will parse higher because of tis synergy with our RF windows.

 

> latest version of simulationcraft can manage only 55%.

 

 

I find it hard to believe SimC is assuming a 55% SF uptime...

 

You're saying this like I'm trying to create something new here. We already had all this at the beginning of cataclysm, and I already raided like that, and this wasn't "90% priority, 10% sequences". More like 70/30 or 60/40 in favor of cycles.

 

 

Wasn't playing a hunter during Cata, but was this really the "optimal" rotation? Also, let's not forget, Cata didn't include Barrage or GT, and didnt have Aimed Shots refunding Focus, its hard to take a Cata system and apply it to a drastically different meta.

 

I'm not saying you're wrong or that it's impossible for there to be optimal rotations for certain, short portions of the fight, but I think the number of caveats we keep having to patch into them shows that its never going to be possible to accurate predict the optimal rotation without possibly changing that rotation in the middle of your CS rotation.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
 

 

My point was that you will now have to have two different rotations, one with Barrage, one without.  So now we have a focus positive rotation w/Barrage, focus positive without Barrage, focus negative w/Barrage, etc.

 

You don't have to worry about focus positive or negative, there are 2 moments where you weigh the focus during rotation, and they only depend on your current focus. You don't have to do 100 calculations each second, evaluating focus for the next 30 seconds. 

 

I created a flow chart to highlight the moments of decision making. For now it doesn't take into account of crits refunding focus. 

10zn4eh.jpg

Note that all focus values assume 120 focus maximum, so for current situation we should subtract 20. 

Also, when we're going to use Barrage instead of AIS, focus values should be increased by 10. 

"Pooling focus" can also be applied to using Barrage right after the next Chimaera. 

 

Also, Barrage's 20 sec CD does not line up with CS's 9 second cooldown, so it's never going to be fired at the same "position" in your rotation.  SOmetimes it might be the first ability you fire, other times it might be the last.  There is no way to accurate predict where GT or Barrage will fall, and delaying either is a DPS loss (outside of CA, of course)
 

Yes, it's a problem. But it's not like we perfectly cast it right now either. I acknowledge it's hard to have a 100% uptime on SF, and both cast CS and Barrage off cooldown. It's hard either way, cycles or no. 

Not saying you're wrong, but I would like to see some proof of this.  I contend that ToTH will parse higher because of tis synergy with our RF windows. I find it hard to believe SimC is assuming a 55% SF uptime...

I just simmed it myself and 55% (or 57%?) is what I got, here's pic. I was using Hunter_MM_T17M sample profile. 

There's also the acknowledgement of simulationcraft having an abnormally low uptime on SF in Effinhunter's FAQ on ElitistJerks. 

Wasn't playing a hunter during Cata, but was this really the "optimal" rotation? Also, let's not forget, Cata didn't include Barrage or GT, and didnt have Aimed Shots refunding Focus, its hard to take a Cata system and apply it to a drastically different meta.

It was, but it was easier to hold because we used Arcane Shot as focus dump, and only would cast AiS during CA or as an instant due to a proc, in which case it would simply take place of one of the Arcane Shots. 

Edited by Iridar

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You don't have to worry about focus positive or negative, there are 2 moments where you weigh the focus during rotation, and they only depend on your current focus. You don't have to do 100 calculations each second, evaluating focus for the next 30 seconds. 

 

I created a flow chart to highlight the moments of decision making. For now it doesn't take into account of crits refunding focus. 

10zn4eh.jpg

Note that all focus values assume 120 focus maximum, so for current situation we should subtract 20. 

Also, when we're going to use Barrage instead of AIS, focus values should be increased by 10. 

"Pooling focus" can also be applied to using Barrage right after the next Chimaera.

 

 

Okay, but you have just created a priority system, just one that uses two moves in each decision, instead of one.  This is a large departure from your original question, about whether we would have "set" rotations between each CS or not.  I think we have sufficiently proven that will not be the case.  There WILL be opitmal 2-3 ability rotations, based on CDs, Focus, temp Haste buffs, etc, but these will be impossible to "predict" beforehand and will require prioritization and reaction mid-fight.

 

I just simmed it myself and 55% (or 57%?) is what I got, here's pic. I was using Hunter_MM_T17M sample profile. 

There's also the acknowledgement of simulationcraft having an abnormally low uptime on SF in Effinhunter's FAQ on ElitistJerks.

 

 

Seems weird, hopefulyl they fix that bug soon so we can see.  the EJ article is confusing bc on the one hand he acknowledges the bug, but on the other it seems like he is still recommending ToTH.  We shall see what the live data is saying during the first couple of weeks.  Perhaps I have let my zeal for 8-9 AiS crits in a row to cloud my judgement smile.png

 

It was, but it was easier to hold because we used Arcane Shot as focus dump, and only would cast AiS during CA or as an instant due to a proc, in which case it would simply take place of one of the Arcane Shots.

 

 

Yep, thats what I mean, different metas and thus different rotation systems

Edited by Atrais

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Okay, but you have just created a priority system, just one that uses two moves in each decision, instead of one.  This is a large departure from your original question, about whether we would have "set" rotations between each CS or not.  I think we have sufficiently proven that will not be the case.  There WILL be opitmal 2-3 ability rotations, based on CDs, Focus, temp Haste buffs, etc, but these will be impossible to "predict" beforehand and will require prioritization and reaction mid-fight.

It was bad wording on my part. The flowchart shows what I meant all along. It's more about the amount of the abilities rather than both amount and their order. 

EDIT: Scratch that, my flowchart is wrong; far from optimal at least. Maybe I'll upload a corrected version later. 

Edited by Iridar
1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It was bad wording on my part. The flowchart shows what I meant all along. It's more about the amount of the abilities rather than both amount and their order. 

 

Framing your rotation around CS cycles, provindg you are still priortizing mid-rotation, is completely something I think could/will be viable and maybe even optimal, just not memorizing set rotations, that was my only real contention.  We will also have to consider how adds and other mechanics play into, but framing the rotation in the terms you have could definitely help players get into a good flow with their priorities.

I will concede that the verdict on ToTH vs. SF is still out, guess we'll have to wait a few more weeks for the raids to be release to find out :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Framing your rotation around CS cycles, provindg you are still priortizing mid-rotation, is completely something I think could/will be viable and maybe even optimal, just not memorizing set rotations, that was my only real contention.  We will also have to consider how adds and other mechanics play into, but framing the rotation in the terms you have could definitely help players get into a good flow with their priorities.

 

I formulated the idea a bit better. 
 
Firstly, some key focus values to remember:
 
One Steady Shot regenerates 14 + 4 * 1.5 * 2 = 26 focus. 1.5 is SF multiplier, 2 is base steady shot cast time.
This value scales with Haste, so you will gain always the same amount of focus, regardless whether SS cast time is 2 seconds or 1 second. 
You will gain more focus if your Steady Shot cast gets shorter than GCD (when Haste is > 100%, which should only be possible when under both RF and BL even if you're very well geared, unless you fully commit to Haste gems, which is suboptimal. 
 
Regardless, when you make a decision to cast an SS, you have to make sure to be at least 26 focus below the cap.
 
If you plan to cast AiS after that, then it's helpful to know that you passively regen 15 focus during AiS cast, regardless of Haste. 
 
So if you're going SS -> AiS, then you have to be 26 + 15 = 41 focus below the cap, or 77 if SS -> SS -> AiS. 
 
At the end of the cycle you must have 35 focus ready to cast Chimaera ASAP.
As mentioned, you regen 15 focus during AiS cast, so you can go AiS -> Chimaera if you have at least 70 focus. 
 
To recap. For level 100: 
Casting Steady Shot gives 26 focus.
Casting two Steady Shots gives 52 focus. 
Casting AiS gives 15 focus.
AiS critical refunds 20 focus. 28 if you have T17 2 piece set bonus.
 
Be > 70 focus if you're going AiS -> CS. 
Be < 79 focus if you're going SS -> AiS
Be < 43 focus if you're going SS -> SS -> AiS
Be < 94 focus if you're going SS -> CS
Be < 68 focus if you're going SS -> SS -> CS
---
At the beginning of each cycle, right after casting a Chimaera, you take a look at your focus and make a decision - choose one of 3 sets of abilities: {3 SS, 2 AiS}, {4 SS, 1 AiS}, {2 SS, 3 AiS}. 
You will cast these abilities in the next 8 seconds, while Chimaera is on cooldown. The order depends on your starting focus, and possibly on focus returns from AiS crits. Your main concern is to cast at least one pair of back-to-back Steady Shots to ensure SF uptime. Casting Barrage / GT on CD is secondary (probably - we won't know until we can sim it). 
 
Your most used set will be {3x SS, 2x AiS}. This set is 21 focus negative, so if at least one AiS crits, it will become almost focus neutral. If you're anywhere from 21 to 120 Focus, you can go for this set. 
 
Second set is {4x SS, 1x AiS}. This set is 33 focus positive. There is a possibility that AiS will crit, refunding 20-28 focus. 
You can go for this set if you're anywhere from 0 to 67 focus (< 59 with T17 2pc).
 
The third set of {2x SS, 3x AiS} is 85 focus negative, provided none of the AiS crit, which is unlikely. Regardless, you should only go for this set if you have 85 focus after casting Chimaera, which means you [almost] overcapped on focus in previous cycle. 
 
That's pretty much it. There are only 2 most used basic cycles, and you have a huge freedom in which set to choose in terms of focus.  
 
So, focus after casting Chimaera will tell you which set to use, and you can use the recap above as a guideline in choosing the order of those shots. 
 
Not, that values of "21 focus negative" or "33 focus positive" above are calculate for 33% haste raid buffed. Other haste values will have other results, which should be calculated on individual level. I'm using Excel spreadsheet to calculate those for me.
---
I'm no longer convinced going for Haste caps, especially at the expense of crit, can be beneficial. But, as you gain more Haste and Crit, you will use the focus positive second set less and less. 
 
That said, a point of interest is 37.5% Haste raid buffed (31% from gear). Then the most used set of {1x CS, 3x SS, 2x AiS} will take exactly 9 seconds. 
 

 

I will concede that the verdict on ToTH vs. SF is still out, guess we'll have to wait a few more weeks for the raids to be release to find out smile.png

I decided to test things out, so I went to heroic SoO and recorded some logs. Sample size is small, only 4 bosses killed once. Naturally, current raid difficulty is very low, but I managed to have 94% uptime on sniper training and 85.5% uptime on Steady Focus. Could be higher, but last time I used Steady Focus was in Cataclysm, so I'm not mad at myself. My point is - if I can manage 85% uptime, that's the least Simulationcraft should be able to do. 99% is the value I'd expect to see. So SF sims lower than it should, without question.

Edited by Iridar
1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I decided to test things out, so I went to heroic SoO and recorded some logs. Sample size is small, only 4 bosses killed once. Naturally, current raid difficulty is very low, but I managed to have 94% uptime on sniper training and 85.5% uptime on Steady Focus. Could be higher, but last time I used Steady Focus was in Cataclysm, so I'm not mad at myself. My point is - if I can manage 85% uptime, that's the least Simulationcraft should be able to do. 99% is the value I'd expect to see. So SF sims lower than it should, without question.

 

 

Yeah, 55% is way too low, completely agreed, even a total novice should be able to top that.  I was surprised that the sims were letting it come out to that, sounds like a problem with priotization within the simulation.

 

That being said, one thing that still bother me at SF is "Will having to cast two SSs when you dont necessarily need to hamper our DPS?".  If my SF is about to fall off, but I have already enough focus to cast AiS, it seems like I am sacrificing DPS to keep the buff up.  Granted, with your CS windows, that might never happen, but I worry that with the Focus regen granted by our perk and our Tier-17 2-bonus that we will be "wasting" SSs just to keep the buff rolling.  Especially when you consider that ToTH could potentially allow us to cast three AiS in a row for an overall Focus cost of 6 (AiS costs 30 under ToTH and refunds 28 Focus on a crit).  Since the name of the game, so to speak, is maximizing the # of CS and AiS you get to cast, especially within CA windows, I think it will come down to which talents let's us cast the most.

Edited by Atrais

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yeah, 55% is way too low, completely agreed, even a total novice should be able to top that.  I was surprised that the sims were letting it come out to that, sounds like a problem with priotization within the simulation.

You have to consider that with the perk and 2p bonus, we will have a lot more focus regen than we do now.  This in turn leads us to not need to double cast steady shot as much, and thus lowers our steady focus uptime.  More often than not, if we would double cast steady shot to refresh steady focus, we'd be capping focus when we could've used SS>AiS and done more damage, with a decent chance of refunding the focus and coming out slightly focus positive.  And there's Chimaera Shot and GT/Barrage coming off cooldown and interrupting a chance to double cast steady shot, since steady shot is the lowest priority ability we have, and not using using CS/GT/Barrage on cd is a dps loss.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.