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xeiion

Warlock WoD Dest stats priority

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Hello im wondering about WoD Destruction stats prio it seem multi->crit->mastery,

is that because,

multistrike dont affect mastery or because our crit actualy become useful,

im kinda lost about it since hadnt had time to be on the beta for try it out.

 

 

 

 

 

 

ps. sorry for the bad description

Edited by xeiion

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Stats are VERY close, so picking one, even the "worst" one won't have much of a difference in your DPS.  Proper play and excellent adaptation to raid strategies will be your biggest DPS boost.

 

For Destruction, we have a guide done for that.  You can find simulated results in there that are destined to change as tuning happens.  Stat weights today will not be stat weights Friday which could change the following Tuesday and then again the following Tuesday.  They're not solid enough with future tuning coming to say which is best right now.

 

You'll always prioritize item level in WoD.  If you have two pieces of the same gear level with different secondary stats, your DPS gain will be VERY small.  If it's up for grabs in a raid setting, upgrading someone else's lower item level will have a greater effect on your team than swapping out some Haste for Multistrike for you as a Destruction Warlock.

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The guide was written a month ago, and will get updated once I hit 100, and again once I've done a run through Heroic. After that you'll need to give me 2-3 weeks until Highmaul Mythic is cleared, at which point I'll go back and add more fluff.

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yea i though so but wasnt sure how much difference,

the overall would have at start so would hear befor launch

thanks alot appreicate it.

Edited by xeiion

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We say this again, and again, but there's really no point in worrying about your stats. You're going to use the highest ilvl gear you get, and that's about all there is to it. You're almost never going to have a socket, and reforging is gone. The only realistic customization you're going to have is the minor amount you can do through enchants.

 

Even with all of that, it's maybe a tenth of the impact of just worrying about learning the spec to a higher level.

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We say this again, and again, but there's really no point in worrying about your stats. You're going to use the highest ilvl gear you get, and that's about all there is to it. You're almost never going to have a socket, and reforging is gone. The only realistic customization you're going to have is the minor amount you can do through enchants.

 

Even with all of that, it's maybe a tenth of the impact of just worrying about learning the spec to a higher level.

 

There's absolutely a point in worrying about your stats and I'm slightly tired of seeing that response. Yes, playing better will help you more than gearing. However, if you stack haste you're going to probably do 15-20% less damage than my crit/mastery build.

 

OP asked a question, here's my answer:

 

Destro full-time: Crit > Mastery > Mult > Vers >= Haste

Destro/demo: Mastery > Crit >= Mult > Vers >= Haste

Destro/aff: SOL.

 

These won't change with their tuning, and if anything the inevitable RoF nerf will make haste even worse, and make crit even better.

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There's absolutely a point in worrying about your stats and I'm slightly tired of seeing that response. Yes, playing better will help you more than gearing. However, if you stack haste you're going to probably do 15-20% less damage than my crit/mastery build.

 

OP asked a question, here's my answer:

 

Destro full-time: Crit > Mastery > Mult > Vers >= Haste

Destro/demo: Mastery > Crit >= Mult > Vers >= Haste

Destro/aff: SOL.

 

These won't change with their tuning, and if anything the inevitable RoF nerf will make haste even worse, and make crit even better.

We just try to make sure people put a higher focus on their playstyle, mechanic adherence, and technique rather than their stats.  It's not that the stats DON'T matter, it's that they're put on a pedastal as if they are the sole reason someone does better DPS.  I haven't done too much testing, but if I flip Haste and Crit, I don't see anywhere close to a 15% gap.  It's usually 5% at the maximum, at least for single target.  Too many variables on each fight since stat weights technically change for every situation. 

 

It's been a long-time wish to hear people ask how to weave Chaos Bolt on two targets, when to optimally use Shadowburn, when to reapply Immolate, etc.  These are all things I see in so many logs that are done horribly - but instead of asking how to fix that, they think swapping a Haste/Versatility ring out for Crit/Multistrike will fix their issues. 

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You're both right. Playing optimally doesn't make having the correct stats less important, and having the right gear doesn't make playing optimally less important.

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That isn't both being right though. The response of "don't worry about your stats" is very dismissive and not accurate. Stats matter, they just don't matter as much as some people think they do. If the response was "Your stat weight should be x>y>=z, but make sure you're doing this right" it would be fine. But a lot of responses are just "ignore stats!" which is just flat-out bad advice.

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You're both right. Playing optimally doesn't make having the correct stats less important, and having the right gear doesn't make playing optimally less important.

He and I deliver the same message in different ways.  It's nitpicky to even say whether it's right or wrong - we both just try to help everyone else play better while steering minds in similar ways as to how we think.

 

That isn't both being right though. The response of "don't worry about your stats" is very dismissive and not accurate. Stats matter, they just don't matter as much as some people think they do. If the response was "Your stat weight should be x>y>=z, but make sure you're doing this right" it would be fine. But a lot of responses are just "ignore stats!" which is just flat-out bad advice.

It's not dismissive because he follows it up with the fact you'll use the highest item level gear because the secondary stats are so close.  I don't think you'd want to use a 640 Crit/Mastery piece over 655 Haste/Versatility because you're still gaining benefit from those stats, even if it's a small bit less, while gaining a lot of Intellect in the item level increase.  No one here is saying to ignore your stats - it's just a steering to get people to think about their class, spells, and abilities as 90% of their damage while secondary stats account for 10% since we typically get asked questions that comprise of 90% secondary stats and 10% how to play.

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These are the stat weights I'm running in Pawn(cool addon to look into)

 

Intellect - 4.13
Spell Power = 3.76
Crit = 1.67
Mastery = 1.6
Haste = 1.44
Multistrike = 1.48
Versatility = 1.31

 

I've made manual changes to the above, bumping Mastery where previously it was lower.

 

But I changed it again, bumping multistrike. I'm going with an Int > Crit > Multistrike focus on my gear.

 

The above was done simming my own character in current gear. I'll have tor run it again actually tonight as I got upgrades over the weekend. 

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Here are my numbers after running simcraft With 637 ilvl. 

 
Int - 4.08
SP - 3.71
Crit - 1.75
Mult - 1.49
Mastery - 1.38
Haste - 1.36
Vers - 1.33
 

Ranking: Int > SP > Crit > Mult > Mastery > Haste > Vers

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These are the stat weights I'm running in Pawn(cool addon to look into)

 

Intellect - 4.13

Spell Power = 3.76

Crit = 1.67

Mastery = 1.6

Haste = 1.44

Multistrike = 1.48

Versatility = 1.31

 

I've made manual changes to the above, bumping Mastery where previously it was lower.

 

But I changed it again, bumping multistrike. I'm going with an Int > Crit > Multistrike focus on my gear.

 

The above was done simming my own character in current gear. I'll have tor run it again actually tonight as I got upgrades over the weekend. 

Allow me to prove the point where your secondary stats are largely irrelevant, contrary to what most believe.

 

Let's use my armory numbers for an example.  I have 1,017 Crit, 455 Versatility, 404 MS, 327 Haste, and 282 Mastery.  Let's also assume I can pull around 18,000 DPS (approximate, of course) single target DPS with no buffs.  Let's pretend I can swap out all of my Versatility for Mastery, which would be the largest "gain" by swapping secondary stats.

 

DPS before = (1017 * 1.67) + (455 * 1.31) + (404 * 1.48) + (327 * 1.44) + (282 * 1.6) = 3814 DPS from secondary stats.

DPS after = (1017 * 1.6.7) + (0 * 1.31) + (404 * 1.48) + (327 * 1.44) + (737 * 1.6) = 3946 DPS from secondary stats. 

 

See the change?  It's SO small when you use this example to give examples to your DPS.  The reason these numbers look low is because buffs matter a lot in WoD.  When you bring in Spell Power, Intellect, and raid buffs, this example gets a slightly larger gap, but it's rather proportional.  Even as you acquire gear, the changes will be miniscule.  Intellect always wins now, so item level will always trump a "poorly" itemized piece of gear like Haste/Versatility. 

 

There are other effects that go into play, however, that put a higher value on certain stats such as stacking Crit for more Burning Embers.  There was also a Haste breakpoint you could employ to get spell casts off in a certain time on a fight like Thok.  Blizzard did a fantastic job balancing the weight of secondary stats so that if you get an upgrade, you can equip it because it's an upgrade.  None of this 645 Haste Versatility item being worse than a 630 Crit/Multistrike piece.

 

Here are my numbers after running simcraft With 637 ilvl. 

 
Int - 4.08
SP - 3.71
Crit - 1.75
Mult - 1.49
Mastery - 1.38
Haste - 1.36
Vers - 1.33
 

Ranking: Int > SP > Crit > Mult > Mastery > Haste > Vers

See my example above. 

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@Zagam I agree that blizzard did a great job at balancing secondary stats but when you compare two pieces of gear at the same item level that there is an obvious damage upgrade for having a Critical Strike/Multistrike 640 versus a Haste/Versatility 640 piece when they both offer the same Intellect. 

 

It's nice to be able to tell which of my Challenge Mode cloaks is the best since I've gotten three already. :(

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My Stat lvls when I ran test came out Higher ilvl > Lower ilvl.

 

Seems to be working so far. :D

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I don't think there is any debate in relation to how minimal the DPS differences are in relation to secondary stats, and how good Blizzard has done on that front.

 

But if you have multiple pieces of equal ilvl gear, its nice to know which one is actually the best. I've swopped some of my gear out with equivalant ilvl gear, but with better secondary stats.

 

I don't think anyone denies that ilvl trumps all as it will by default contain more int, which is the most important stat to improve with gear at this early stage.

 

But I'm not alone as someone who loves to get the max out of myself and my class, and part of that is indetifying what is the best stat prioirty for me. So for maybe the majority it will be fine to just get whatever gear and get stuck into raiding, and from there get whatever and get an upgrade week to week, for me its about being as optimum as I can before raids, then going into raids, monitor my change in stat priority as the upgrades come in, to a point where I'm farming content for a BIS list. :)

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@Zagam I agree that blizzard did a great job at balancing secondary stats but when you compare two pieces of gear at the same item level that there is an obvious damage upgrade for having a Critical Strike/Multistrike 640 versus a Haste/Versatility 640 piece when they both offer the same Intellect. 

 

It's nice to be able to tell which of my Challenge Mode cloaks is the best since I've gotten three already. sad.png

I agree when it comes down to equal item level gear.  I just think the difference between the two is GREATLY exaggerated by people.  Honestly, swapping two pieces of gear gives you 100 DPS - it's marginal at best.  You can almost always find 100 DPS by doing something differently in a fight like sneaking in a better Chaos Bolt, making sure Immolate doesn't fall off for a second, saving Conflagrate for movement, etc.

 

For CMs, you'll absolutely want to prioritize certain stats simply because everything is scaling, but it'll be ok if 3 or 4 pieces have Versatility.  I just want to shake the stigma that if you have 6 pieces of Crit gear missing, that can be blamed for your DPS being 90th percentile instead of 99th.

 

I don't think there is any debate in relation to how minimal the DPS differences are in relation to secondary stats, and how good Blizzard has done on that front.

 

But if you have multiple pieces of equal ilvl gear, its nice to know which one is actually the best. I've swopped some of my gear out with equivalant ilvl gear, but with better secondary stats.

 

I don't think anyone denies that ilvl trumps all as it will by default contain more int, which is the most important stat to improve with gear at this early stage.

 

But I'm not alone as someone who loves to get the max out of myself and my class, and part of that is indetifying what is the best stat prioirty for me. So for maybe the majority it will be fine to just get whatever gear and get stuck into raiding, and from there get whatever and get an upgrade week to week, for me its about being as optimum as I can before raids, then going into raids, monitor my change in stat priority as the upgrades come in, to a point where I'm farming content for a BIS list. smile.png

I understand - there is a work/effort level to think about as well.  If you're willing to farm instances for 8 hours to pick up a warforged version of a cloak, good on you.  I'll always think about things I can do in an encounter to boost my DPS rather than shift my stats around. 

 

The analogy that goes through my head regarding secondary stats and their output is a lot like pens to me.  You know how there are good pens (mastery), decent pens (multistrike), and then REALLY nice pens (crit)?  No matter what kind of pen you have, if you focus on your handwriting (DoT uptimes) or the next words you'll write, your story (mechanics adherence) will kick ass and be readable.  If you have the best pen (gear) in the world but no one can read your writing (60% Immolate uptime) or your story makes no sense, did it matter what kind of pen you started with?  For the min/max, if you have the best pen (BiS) and write the best story, how much better is it really than a story written with a pretty good pen?  It's not that different.  The difference is so small that most of the time the difference is absorbed into RNG with trinkets, fight time, or unlucky/lucky crit streaks.   

 

I know it sounds like I argue that stats don't matter - they DO - they just don't matter as much as everyone is concerned with.  It's something I've dealt with HEAVILY here.  As someone who reviews logs, I'm also biased to think that everyone can improve their play and it'll have 10x the effect of changing their stats.  Changing stats is easy, so people will fall back to that rather than admit they make mistakes while playing.  Even if it's the unpopular opinion, I want people to think about their DPS mechanics and playstyle more than their stats. 

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