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Looking for Raid

60 replies to this topic Started by Stoove, Oct 11 2012 11:33 AM Looking for Raid raid LFR
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Posted 11 October 2012 - 11:33 AM

#1
Stoove
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I'm interested to find out something. I've been thinking lately about LFR and how much I personally dislike it, so I was wondering what other people think about LFR. Let's forget the gear for a moment: would you actually want to go there if it did not reward such good loot? For me, it's a no.

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 01:17 PM

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Personally I understand why it is there (for casuals) who want to fight and kill the bosses within the game. The argument that you should need to put time and effort to "complete" the game is a valid one but obviously Blizzard wants to include all now. When I started raiding at the end of TBC I never felt it was my "right" to go and fight Illidan etc, I barely had any chance of fighting in Karazan. If anything it made me want to learn more, play more, get better and improve. But sadly LFR looks like it is here to stay. The only real problem that I have with LFR is the fact that provides gear that is an upgrade for anyone trying to complete the current content. We had a great week last week trying Stone Guard and Feng, yet weve had 2 raids before LFR opens up. Its easy to say well stay out of LFR but when we are competing against other guilds on our realm etc then its almost a necessity for players to enter LFR for extra upgrades on loot. This will ultimately mean players who have a challenges with normal modes eventually outgearing the encounters etc before they normally would through progression. If LFR is just for casuals then surely there is enough to do with the release of an expansion to keep them busy for the meantime? Why not let us compete with Normal modes for a few months and release LFR a month before the next patch? Makes no real sense to me. Rather than raiding properly last night we decided to join LFR with as many guildies as possible to try and gear up, and it was such a joke of a fight. Its a shame really, but its not easy to tell players they cant go in there and upgrade their loot, just to play the game "properly". I've enjoyed the gearing process to raid entry so far, (even if there are too many dailies) but sadly I think LFR will change the way that players of my skillset will compete in WoW. Casuals - Get to see content - Positive (but why so soon) Normal raiders - End up outgearing the content sooner with boosted LFR gear - Negative Heroic raiders - Would clear the content on normal regardless - Arguably doesnt affect top realm top region raiders at all (apart from possibly giving marginal upgrades for early heroic attempts) Sorry for the rant, I have argued these point on the EU forums and got shouted down with comments like "You dont have to join" etc etc.

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 01:26 PM

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Here are some complaints about this tier's LFR... Sigils of Power (Legendary Quest item) seem to drop MUCH more often in LFR than in our normal clears. We have gone 3/6 first week and 4/6 this week and have seen zero sigils, yet when my raiders went into LFR separately, they came out with at least 1 and as much as 3. This is Blizzard's secret way of forcing geared people to go into LFR to assist with lesser geared people. While it is smart of them, I'm onto their trickery and despise it greatly. Fight mechanics are not just dumbed down...they are completely removed. It's utterly disgusting that LFR provides a raid for those who can't really raid that is just a glorified Mists 5 man heroic dungeon. Stone Guard - stack dogs and heal through the Overloads. AKA trash pull Feng - stack up and heal through Epicenter. AKA trash pull Gara'jal - don't want to use a totem? Don't bother. AKA trash pull It requires absolutely no coordination, effort, or skill. It's just Blizzard handing gear out to people randomly for enduring a 30 minute dungeon with 25 people. Can't wait to see how bad they butcher the last 3...

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 01:30 PM

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Sneakyferret
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The difficulty is quite steep from lfr to 10man/25man normal.

LFR was so easy that we completed it in one shot as soon as lfr went available. The issue this brings is a bunch of inflated ego's especially those who were doing near top dps because they decided not to move at all during the entire conflict. Mainly those that do normals will definitely easily outgear those that run lfr quickly, especially now with how lfr gear distributing is currently. All it requires is progression.

Pretty much, run lfr during your own free time for gear that will help make life easier during your own guilds run of normals/heroics.

Here are some complaints about this tier's LFR...

Sigils of Power (Legendary Quest item) seem to drop MUCH more often in LFR than in our normal clears. We have gone 3/6 first week and 4/6 this week and have seen zero sigils, yet when my raiders went into LFR separately, they came out with at least 1 and as much as 3. This is Blizzard's secret way of forcing geared people to go into LFR to assist with lesser geared people. While it is smart of them, I'm onto their trickery and despise it greatly.

Fight mechanics are not just dumbed down...they are completely removed. It's utterly disgusting that LFR provides a raid for those who can't really raid that is just a glorified Mists 5 man heroic dungeon.

Stone Guard - stack dogs and heal through the Overloads. AKA trash pull
Feng - stack up and heal through Epicenter. AKA trash pull
Gara'jal - don't want to use a totem? Don't bother. AKA trash pull

It requires absolutely no coordination, effort, or skill. It's just Blizzard handing gear out to people randomly for enduring a 30 minute dungeon with 25 people. Can't wait to see how bad they butcher the last 3...


Sigils:
We have to see what they will do for the second part of the legendary in the next patch, Gems i do not mind so much if anyone; even the lfr groups can get them, but they should definitely make it so the real raiders can only get the actual legendaries.

mechanics:
That's lfr for ya >.>

(Just wait for all those lfr runners to start saying just how easy the normal raid is because of their clears of the dumbed down version.)

Edited by Sneakyferret, 11 October 2012 - 01:36 PM.

Moon Guard - Sneakyferret (Druid) Horde

Guardian = 476 ilvl

Boomkin = 463 ilvl

Posted 11 October 2012 - 01:46 PM

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Stoove
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So am I right in surmising that, given the chance, you would avoid LFR and do the difficulty of raiding that fits your skill level better instead?

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 02:04 PM

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Peelyon
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Thats my ultimate problem Stoove, its like they understand that a full casual group of 25 actually wouldnt kill a LFR boss. In our run we actually had dps pushing 15k - I can do 25k plus by spamming Smite in holy spec. Therefore they "force" normal and heroic raiders into the LFR to literally boost casuals through it. Its pretty sad really.

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 02:08 PM

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i honostly do not have a problem with lfr. it gives the not so hardcore raiders a chance at doing something the gear isnt as good as normal raid. This way us more hardcore raiders who want challenges in raiding can still have it and not get it nerfed over n over because others cant clear the content. it doesnt take talented and geared raiders to go into lfr to help them clear content. its already easy enough as is. ive also found that ive have gotten more bdages form normal raiding than in lfr or the same. its all about chance on kill kinda thing

Edited by pandoramic, 11 October 2012 - 02:10 PM.

Posted 11 October 2012 - 02:11 PM

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Stoove
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i honostly do not have a problem with lfr. it gives the not so hardcore raiders a chance at doing something the gear isnt as good as normal raid. This way us more hardcore raiders who want challenges in raiding can still have it and not get it nerfed over n over because others cant clear the content.


And would you go into LFR if it didn't drop loot upgrades to make raiding harder modes less punishing? =]

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 02:38 PM

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Any sensible raider will (& should) use everything available to make progress easier, I for one would not want someone on the team that didn't. Therefore until you outgear the drops it becomes another grind for raiders. For casuals it provides them with some meh gear and having seen the content, I play the game for the challenge which is normal and the odd HC for me, having others see it in LFR doesn't effect this therefore it doesn't worry me. If there was no loot I wouldn't go in, the end of Cata group in there couldn't walk in a straight line so why would I? Therefore Blizzard have to give some reward to make it work, but really it doesn't have a real effect on raiders once they get started as the loot is outdated quick enough and I'm not into stressing about things that don't matter to me. OT and in short no me either

Posted 11 October 2012 - 02:52 PM

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To comment on some things... No, I would NOT go in to the first 3 bosses of LFR. I've acquired all of the 489 gear available to me from the first 3 and no matter what drops, I have no need for it. I've gotten lucky on my use of tokens, but IMO, normal modes aren't difficult for stable groups. If you're pugging people, you won't likely see more than 1 or 2 kills per week so loot may be limited to you there. However, the first 4 bosses can be done with a 460 ilvl average group with relative ease and an understanding of the mechanics. What irks me is that I HAVE to run LFR to stay ahead of the curve, or even just with the curve, to acquire my Sigils. That is absolutely bogus that if I skip LFR, people who run LFR acquire their legendary quest progress items faster than someone who would rather spend his time progressing on finishing the dungeon and starting heroics. Oh, and let me not forget the fun that will become LFR soon. Remember those trolls on Spine who would kill extra Corruptions and cause wipes? Or how about those guys who were too lazy to switch to oozes on Yor'sahj? First boss in LFR doesn't have anything like that, but Feng sure does. Anyone who gets that Arcane Resonance debuff can, and probably will, run into the group stacked up and wipe them. It has already happened to me week 1...had some guy INTENTIONALLY wipe the group with that debuff because he said LFR was too easy and he was there to make it difficult. The trolls...they are coming. LFR does NOT give non-raiders a way to raid. As I said, the mechanics of the LFR tuned bosses when compared to the normal bosses is three times the jump as from normal to heroic. Examples: Stone Guard - normal - things to watch out for: 1) Jasper Chains 2) Cobalt Mines 3) Amaethyst Pools 4) Overloads Stone Guard - LFR - things to watch out for: 1) your dog/cat/baby messing with you by being in your lap 2) microwave going off 3) disconnects 4) guild chat Feng - normal - things to watch out for: 1) Epicenter 2) Lightning Fist 3) Fire 4) Draw Flame 5) Arcane Resonance 6) Arcane Velocity Feng - LFR - things to watch out for: 1) Arcane Resonance: negated by having ranged spread out 2) Arcane Velocity (not really due to laughable damage) Gara'jal - normal - things to watch out for: 1) Totem Pole 2) Voodoo debuff 3) Add control 4) Debuff timer so you don't die 5) Buff timer for DPS requirement to kill boss 6) Enraged Voodoo debuff Gara'jal - LFR - things to watch out for: 1) Voodoo (not really, negligible damage) What they SHOULD have done with LFR is still require moving from things that could kill you. There's only one of those things in all of the first 3 bosses. As long as 2 of your healers aren't licking windows during the encounters, nothing else can really kill you. If I was so busy in life or couldn't meet a consistent schedule to raid with a normal group and had LFR to look forward to to quench my raiding desire, I believe this version of LFR would be a complete embarrassment and let down.

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 02:58 PM

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As long as 2 of your healers aren't licking windows during the encounters, nothing else can really kill you.


This is one of the reasons I particularly, personally, dislike LFR. Anyone can do anything they like, and the healers will carry it all.

Stoove is the wizard of all things shaman related. He is neither late nor early, For he arrives precisely when he intends to.

 

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 03:19 PM

#12
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Incidentally, this topic got a mention on a related post on my blog (linked in my sig). =]

Stoove is the wizard of all things shaman related. He is neither late nor early, For he arrives precisely when he intends to.

 

The sole test of theory is experiment. The sole test of experiment is theory.

 

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I use this as my moderator voice.

Posted 11 October 2012 - 03:47 PM

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Our tank went for a bio on Feng LFR and came back to his PC refreshed and still auto attacking the boss btw

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 04:04 PM

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I like that more people get to see raid content but I really hate how LFR is currently implemented, it's still a gear gate and I would never go in if it wasn't. It's my opinion that LFR should have been setup for the previous tier's raid content at the 25N difficulty. That would allow non-raiders to still see content (just 1 tier late) and still gear for it through heroics (for instance 4.3 heroics would be plenty of ilvl for firelands). Maybe even apply the 25% nerf to LFR to make it easier. This would also get rid of the development time for a strictly LFR version (maybe getting back to some intelligent raid design).
Another reason (though minor) that I would like to see LFR pushed back 1 tier, is that beating the current raiding tier 2 weeks after an xpac drops somewhat diminishes my desire to push through on raiding (I did say minor) Posted Image
All in all, I hate being forced to gear early for progression by using LFR. I don't want to raid or even dungeon run with a bunch of kids and anything to get away from that is great. (I miss the days of no LFD also, so my opinion may be skewed)

Posted 11 October 2012 - 04:12 PM

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I think one good point you raise there Vladamyr is that having LFR as a gearing gate somewhat reduces the significance of all the other gearing processes you've already gone through. In my opinion, a lot of the content that ISN'T LFR is damn good - and the effort you have to go through to get geared ready for Normals is wasted as soon as you step inside LFR to get the upgrades there. 5man content and scenarios haven't been exhausted yet, but already LFR has made them almost redundant as a gearing tool. I find that somewhat upsetting.

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 05:36 PM

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I haven't run LFR yet in Mists of Pandaria, so take what I say with a grain of salt.

I understand all the reasons why LFR exists, and why it is the way it is. I understand the reasons that Blizzard created it for, and barring minor fixes, I think it is the best it should be for their purposes. As independent, objective party, I think Blizzard's move is great.

However, as a raider, as a person who is able and willing to dedicate a lot of time, thought, and effort to obtaining raid gear, improving my performance, and facing (and defeating) challenges, LFR annoys me.

As was pointed out, you cannot simply "stay out of it" or ignore it. Not if you want to be competitive. Not if you want to maximise your gear, fight for a raid spot, or fight for a realm ranking for your guild. And Blizzard knows this all too well. They must know it, because they've used this argument in the past to (rightly) justify some of their actions. It's the reason why caps exist on anything, so that players won't feel forced to farm/grind for endless amounts of time and cause harm to themselves in the process. So they know that this constraint to "do everything you can" exists.

But what are the alternatives? To answer the OP, I wouldn't do LFR if it wasn't for the gear. But then, I have to admit to myself that I probably wouldn't do most things in this game if it wasn't for the rewards. We (raiders) tell ourselves that it's for the challenge, overcoming obstacles, working together, etc., but for a lot of us, I suspect it's the rewards, be they gear, achievements, titles, mounts, the respect of other players on the realm, etc.

So, if there were no rewards, I wouldn't run LFR. I also wouldn't run dungeons except once to see the content. I wouldn't run raids, either, most likely. I might do once or twice if they were as easy to get through as dungeons are, but I wouldn't clock in 200 wipes on Nefarian or Ragnaros (heroic) just to know that I've done it.

Anyway, you can just view LFR as something that "has to be done" a few times at the start of a raid tier. A few lockouts in, you should already either have all you need, or not need it any longer.

Posted 11 October 2012 - 06:30 PM

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Yeah, that's a great point Vlad. I have a question for some general feedback. What if JP, Heroic Dungeons and LFR were all the same ilvl so that you could gear truly how you wanted and still see content? I know they won't do this but was wondering your all's thoughts? Also is there now a purpose for JP? I ran 6 heroics and am past being able to use JP's now :(

Posted 11 October 2012 - 06:49 PM

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Well the rumor mill has picked up...Blizzard is thinking about having a separate lockout of LFR from normals....ooooh the rage that would happen. Now you'd have to pick your poison. Getting saved to one would lock you out of the other. Vlad, run LFR now. It's just a glorified heroic dungeon. It is the absolute, most giving version of Blizzard handing out loot. It's almost like World of Warcraft Welfare... Vladamyr, Justice Points are used for buying honor so you don't have to grind BGs with no gear =) I grind dungeons to cap Valor with guildies (guild dungeons = 1750g) then use the JP to buy honor. Works out great. Not having JP gear at 463 ilvl shows Blizzard's design incompetency just like the dailies of one faction being a gate to two more.

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 08:12 PM

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I know people do not like LFR but maybe it just has not been put into perspective the right way, any perhaps I can help. I personally have mixed feelings about it, but mostly I support it (yes, I know here come the trolls). I am married, have 2 kids, I work, and I am a full time student. two of my classes start at 7pm and end at 10pm tuesday and thursday... need I say more. I have to prioritize my dailies due to the lack of time and I can only pug my normals, and its almost impossible for me to get any Heroic content down before a nerf (hasn't happened since LK). Occasionally I can do a guild run, but due to my ever changing scheduale I do not always get to see content, let alone get geared to do it. LFR offers people like me and opportunity to get essentially free gear for a minimal time investment. I love this game, and in about a year I'll be able to do more once my scheduale calms down, but until then I appreciate the fact that I can grab some "free" gear and have an easier time gearing up. There are negatives, trolls and baddies are annoying, but overall I think it does what is intended, and thats help people like me enjoy the game more.
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Posted 11 October 2012 - 08:36 PM

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I wasn't bashing LFR as a means to get gear...I'm all for other people getting gear if their schedules are too tight. What I'm bashing is Blizzard for giving you this raid...if it can be called that. It's an atrocity. It's flat out embarassing. If you enjoy it, I'm glad, but I don't see how any of the fights constitute a raid boss other than the gear it drops. The Welfare comment wasn't about people collecting it...it was about how it's handed out. After you do LFR, let me know how much fun you had standing in one place doing your single target rotation.

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