Zagam

Warlocks - Where we stand after tuning

163 posts in this topic

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/6/#dataset=90&timespan=1000

 

(Note - I'm using 90th %ile numbers)

 

The latest tuning changes make me puzzled.

 

  • Windwalker got a small nerf, but it was a CLEAR outlier and will remain #1.
  • Retribution has remained at the top, which is only a problem for PvP.
  • Unholy DK was left alone, similarly to Retribution. Frost got a 7% buff, so it should come up in PvE and be completely broken OP in PvP.
  • Feral and Balance are both in good spots.
  • MM got a small nerf, all Hunters got a small nerf making BM and Survival untouchable.
  • Enhancement was performing ok and got a 20% buff to its two big abilities. Elemental got sizeable buffs to all abilities, but it was below Warlocks.
  • Fury got a sizeable buff, almost the largest, which it needed as it was the 6th worst spec.
  • Mages were just below Warlocks with even Frost under Warlocks. Fire received a huge buff, Frost got a small buff, and Arcane got a sizeable buff. This will put all Mages above Warlocks.
  • Rogues are very middle of the pack. IMO, they should get a small buff to be closer to Feral Druid or Feral should be knocked down a peg.

This means with the most recent tunings, the only specs that were below Warlocks were Frost Mage, Frost DK, Elemental Shaman, Fury Warrior, Fire Mage, Arcane Mage, BM Hunter, and Survival Hunter. EVERY SINGLE ONE except for the Hunters was buffed sizeably. Hunters do, however, have a viable, powerful spec. This means Warlocks are now officially the worst class in the game at the 90th Percentile of play across all fights. 

 

I'm hoping that the second round of buffs they "forgot" to put up yesterday includes buffs to Rogues, Shadow Priests, non-MM Hunters, and Warlocks while bringing Windwalker and Retribution down a notch. 

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After looking at Simulationcraft and real data, I stand convinced that they will not let Warlocks remain at the very bottom long.  Hopefully we get a hotfix today - if not today, then really really soon.  We're not asking to be at the top, but we should have at least 1 spec somewhere in the middle.  I thought I'd enjoy all the specs being moderately close - not when they're all moderately close below every other class.

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Soonest warlock hotfixes, imo, will come is Monday. Blizzard (historically) won't do class tuning mid Mythic World Race.

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They could announce them at any point today before raiding starts, right?  Right?!  I mean...shit dude, I could level my Mage up this weekend, get her to 640, and destroy my Warlock in one week.  If no changes are announced today, that is exactly what I'm going to do and spend all my gold gearing her up.  It's absurd, but I am 110% on board swapping mains if this continues.  This is embarrassing.

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this sucks sooo much, we have 3-4 warlocks in the guild and are useless now in progress raiding.

right now on the usefulmeter from 1-10 we are a -2
 i mean srsly we got no raid cooldowns, we deal no damage and our healthstones are worse than the healpots....

tell me 1 good reason to have a warlock in a progress guild right now?

i realy love to play Warlock and its my most played class for 10 years, but if i want to be helpful to my raid i have to switch to my monk twink.

also whats making me going crazy is how blizzard is handling all that shit. its not just a small buff here and a small nerf there, it looks like they did zero balancing work in WoD and are only starting to work on it now (2days before mythic opens \o/)

 im just so sad and angry right now and dont know what to do....

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Aside from an elusive need for a rather mediocre 40 yard gateway, I can see zero reasons to bring a Warlock over a Mage.  We're not AWFUL to the point we're unplayable - Warlocks are servicable, but I'll bet you won't see a ton doing Mythic progression when DPS timers are tight.  With recent buffs, I think even Elemental Shamans will have higher ST damage than any of our specs.

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It's been really frustrating... I really really wish we weren't so strong in MoP because it seems to be the main point they're afraid to focus on any meaningful analysis of our numbers. It was nice while it lasted in MoP, but it overall hurt our class I feel. Anytime I make a comment about anything lock related, all I hear is "Well you had your time to shine." Doesn't mean our class deserves to be swept under the rug because we played the class to its fullest. Bleh. I can't imagine it stays like this... we really bring very little utility outside of a single gateway. There really aren't many uses for a single gateway let alone a reason to bring multiple gateways. And don't even get me started on healthstones...

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yeah thats right. the problem is just that the most guilds who didnt do 2-3 twink runs to equip the mains with 660+ itemlvl, cant handle that dps loss.
for example instead of taking 3 warlocks you switch them with  2mages and a ele your raid will gain more raid cooldowns AND more dps. even if its only 2-3k dps(i think it will be more), this dps can be the matchwinner.

im only talking about the first mythic id where every single point of dps can be crucial

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I've also been pressured to swap to my hunter for another Aspect of the Fox. Those can be invaluable with some of the crazy "oh shit move from X" moments in these encounters. There are just so many better options than bringing more than one warlock at the moment. 

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Even now people in my guild don't believe warlocks are this bad... Sad times, sad times.

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The dmg tuning last night certainly was noticed.  our DMG meters looked less like an LFR dmg meter and everybody was a bit closer together.  We had a resto Sham swap to Ele and shit!.. they got buffed!

 

Funny you mention rogues needing to come up.  Outside of Hunters, our rogues have been killing it and have been the hardest for me to top.  They seem, in a very good spot.

 

In my group, it feels like nothing has changed.  I have a sizable dps lead on all the other casters and am always competing for top 3 if I don't play bad... But... right now I am also much more geared than many of our players... how happy will I bee in a few weeks where everybodies gear is on part with mine?

 

I think first week raid data also comes with caveats.  You have people gear fed vs people not.  You have people in 10 man groups vs 30 man groups.  Bosses and adds health scaled differently in every other parse.  I am curious to see if Mythic logs will carry over similar results.

 

Based on Simcraft, I am most worried about our scaling moving forward into this tier.

Edited by Soulzar

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We're not unplayable - but evidence such as real numbers don't lie.  Simulationcraft has been pretty accurate representing DPS of classes to a reasonable understanding.  It's just unreasonable to consider the gap between the classes now, especially with such volatile changes in coefficients of abilities.

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I may stay on the Warlock despite the Mage being super inviting.  I might stay just so I know somewhere near the limit where Warlocks are and hopefully can help provide data to bringing us a little lift.

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Based on Simcraft, I am most worried about our scaling moving forward into this tier.

This is the first expansion start that i'm playing. Locks have the reputation to scale VERY well with gear. One of the better ones together with fire mage and fury warriors. Is that going to be happening? Will all warlock specs go up graduatly? Is it just affli or?

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This is the first expansion start that i'm playing. Locks have the reputation to scale VERY well with gear. One of the better ones together with fire mage and fury warriors. Is that going to be happening? Will all warlock specs go up graduatly? Is it just affli or?

 

Sorry, I should be careful how I word things.  I'm not the type of person who runs sims.  My opinions are more formed from general class experience as well as soaking up anything and everything I can from the various forums, from those more knowledgeable in those areas like Simcraft.  It was not my intention to make it sound like I was stating fact, based off simcraft.

 

After the recent buffs (nerfs) we got, there were Simcraft results posted at different gear levels.  The first thing I noticed was Affliction went from last to first among lock specs, and demo went from top to bottom.  Affliction as usual looks to scale the best of all our specs.  My worry was more for Demo, a spec I was wanting to play more this expac.  It seems Destro will hover in the middle the whole time.

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im really sad. im leveling my dk now, and hes at 94, and i can burst stuff down faster than with my lock. Granted sustained isnt great.

 

 

I feel like a pre WoD rogue now.

Edited by vaeevictiss

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at least we can be strong on one fight. stream i'm watching has a Lock shitting on kids as aff

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Comparing one parse/guild isn't really good evidence.  Compiling it into thousands of parses with hundreds of guilds and using percentiles is a much more accurate way to look at logs and determine class capabilities.  Every class has a high ceiling with favorable RNG or certain fight mechanics.  It's just not a fun thing to be great on one fight and be awful on the next.

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Actually dont know what ur talking about. I play destro lock and have a great time. sure its not the most fun specc but i put out as much dmg as the other ppl in hc raiding group. im lm always top 3 in dps meter.  

 

So id guess im either playing in a too low level of skill guild/myself skills and you guys are having way better gear then me and comparing urselfs with the other classes and everyone in ur guild/coregroup have really good gear.

Or im just good playing my wlock. 

 

Anyhow! I still love my wlock and will not change class! 

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Actually dont know what ur talking about. I play destro lock and have a great time. sure its not the most fun specc but i put out as much dmg as the other ppl in hc raiding group. im lm always top 3 in dps meter.  

 

So id guess im either playing in a too low level of skill guild/myself skills and you guys are having way better gear then me and comparing urselfs with the other classes and everyone in ur guild/coregroup have really good gear.

Or im just good playing my wlock. 

 

Anyhow! I still love my wlock and will not change class! 

What people are talking about are real numbers of parses collected on warcraftlogs in combination with theoretical (accurate) simcraft data.

 

Here is the average damage per spec averaged over every boss for heroic raiding of parses uploaded to warcraft logs.

 

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/6#difficulty=4&dataset=90&aggregate=amount

 

As you can see, the best perfomring warlock spec is in the middle of the pack pre hotfix with almost every class having a higher damaging spec.

 

Post hotfix, this phenomenon will become worst.

 

Play with the numbers yourself, click on the 50th percentile, the 99th percentile, and look at the numbers on a per boss basis. Locks are not in the best spot but they aren't as bad as they could be.

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Actually dont know what ur talking about. I play destro lock and have a great time. sure its not the most fun specc but i put out as much dmg as the other ppl in hc raiding group. im lm always top 3 in dps meter.  

 

So id guess im either playing in a too low level of skill guild/myself skills and you guys are having way better gear then me and comparing urselfs with the other classes and everyone in ur guild/coregroup have really good gear.

Or im just good playing my wlock. 

 

Anyhow! I still love my wlock and will not change class! 

Agreed.  Zag sucks and should learn2play.  Thank you for enlightening all of us.

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Agreed.  Zag sucks and should learn2play.  Thank you for enlightening all of us.

Now now, no need for any cult mentality

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Actually dont know what ur talking about. I play destro lock and have a great time. sure its not the most fun specc but i put out as much dmg as the other ppl in hc raiding group. im lm always top 3 in dps meter.  

 

So id guess im either playing in a too low level of skill guild/myself skills and you guys are having way better gear then me and comparing urselfs with the other classes and everyone in ur guild/coregroup have really good gear.

Or im just good playing my wlock. 

 

Anyhow! I still love my wlock and will not change class!

1. You are more geared than your guildies.

or

2. Your guildies are playing at a lower level than you.

Talent and skill can make up some gaps but when these guys talk about dps rankings and Sims, there are assumptions being made that the players skills are of similar levels. In high end raiding guilds, player skills will be very close so the Sims and classes damage ceilings are fairly accurate.

Like Zagam said, in normals or heroics warlick should still be okay but in early mythic progression with not a lot of gear, most progression groups will not be looking to bring in multiple warlocks over other classes that bring more damage and utility.

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I know - presenting real, actual data is so hard to misinterpret when numbers are bigger and smaller than others and means that I'm terrible.  Such logic. 

3 people like this

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Yeah. I felt totally teased when they mentioned fucking up our ember regen in destroy within the paragraph about class tuning...and then nothing happened.

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