Neith

Survival DPS and Focus questions

7 posts in this topic

First off I just want to say how happy I am with the state of Hunters at the moment.  It seems like everyday there is something new being learned that are bringing all the specs closer and closer together, which is something Blizzard should strive to do for all classes.  Anyway, on to my questions.

 

Since making the switch to Survival I've found myself focus starved all the time.  I don't know if this is something I'm doing wrong, or it's just the state of the spec right now.  Basically what happens after my initial opener, is I'm using Cobra Shot just enough to use my next shot (barring ToTH/LnL procs of course), which leads me to believe I'm delaying my shots too much.  Is this just bad focus management on my part?  Is there a Focus "threshold" so to speak that we should be aiming to stay at or around?  I'm loving the spec, but I'm pretty new to it so not exactly sure that I'm doing it correctly.

 

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/F8qPyDAx2MzLX9p3#type=summary&fight=3

 

Here are the only logs I have on a heroic boss fight, and also one of the only times I haven't been on any kind of mechanic duty.  They're all wipes in a pug group with about 300ms ping, but I feel like I played ok barring the circumstances.  If anyone cares to have a look, I'd sure appreciate any help.

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I have noticed this focus starvation too.

 

In case of Survival, no, you should not try to hover around certain focus level. The reason for this is that we constantly use in our rotation shots with all kinds of focus cost, from 0 for Explosive trap to 60 for Barrage, while the Hunter himself has only a focus cap of 100. Hovering around certain focus level is not only very hard in these circumstances, but also pointless, since there are no "signature shots" to be used on cooldown here.

 

Explosive Shot is very cheap, so you don't have to specially prepare for it, and Barrage and Black Arrow have reasonably long cooldowns, so you should use that time to prepare for them. 

 

You can make your life a bit easier by changing your rotation a bit.

 

1. Don't be in a rush to spend your TotH proc. Marksmanship requires 6-7 seconds to spend that proc, you only need 3, so you're not in a hurry. I find the focus starvation to not be so apparent when I delay spending TotH procs until last possible seconds, to make sure I'm not delaying higher priority shots because of that. 

 

Of course, you should monitor Serpent Sting on your target. The less time the DoT has remaning, the higher priority TotH'ed Arcane Shot becomes. 

 

EDIT: To rephrase this part: if you spend TotH proc right away, you're likely to make yourself focus starved, which will result in delaying higher priority shots.

 

Also, because Arcane Shot applies Serpent Sting, it's better to spread out your TotH'ed Arcane Shots a bit, to ensure a more optimal uptime on the DoT. If you spend it right away, it's possible that later you'll need to waste focus on reapplying Serpent Sting without TotH, which is also likely to focus starve you. 

 

2. Incorporate Explosive Trap in your rotation (if you haven't already, I didn't check the logs). Even when used on cooldown it's merely 3-5% of overall DPS. So I think the way you should use it is to "bridge the gap". 

 

Say, you have 35 focus, no TotH proc, and Explosive Shot comes off cooldown in one second. In this case, if you use Cobra Shot, you will delay Explosive Shot. If you use Arcane Shot, you won't have enough focus for Explosive Shot. It's a perfect time to use Explosive Trap. 

 

Remember, that you regen 4-5 focus per second passively. Times when you're a few focus points short to cast a priority ability is also a great time to use Explosive Trap. 

 

You also should use it when there are no other priority abilities available, and you don't need more focus from Cobra to prepare for the future. 

Edited by Iridar
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Thanks, that helps a lot.  More often than not I only pre-trap, then forget about it halfway through the encounter.  3-5% does seem like quite a bit, considering I sim for 23.6k and am pulling around 23k on a pretty regular basis.  I feel small changes such as the ones you mentioned may help me get closer and closer to my maximum potential.

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HI!

 

I found  very helpful your suggestion about the optimization of surv rotation and i'd like to ask you somenthing more about it in multi target situations like tectus or brackenspore or twin ogron and in particular about the use of barrage, if you use it and if yes how you use it. 

 

When i use barrage often it's a mess to manage focus and many times i have to chose if use Barrage and delaying black arrow and explosive shot or use Barrage really few time. As Blood elf arcane torrent sometimes help me but it's just one time every two minutes.

 

Thx in advance for the help

 

P.S. sorry if my english is not perfect, i write from Italy

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I simmed explosive and non explosive for my char, only netted me 0.5% DPS gain of 160 DPS.

 

Surprisingly, I removed Barrage from the action list for ST and yielded higher DPS.

Edited by Syncness

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I simmed explosive and non explosive for my char, only netted me 0.5% DPS gain of 160 DPS.

 

Surprisingly, I removed Barrage from the action list for ST and yielded higher DPS.

Yeah, things like talent choices and rotational priority is something that everyone should sim for their own gear. I like to use this list:

copy=Steady_AMoC_None_FS
talents=0001102

copy=Steady_AMoC_None_LW
talents=0001103

copy=Steady_AMoC_GT_EM
talents=0001111

copy=Steady_AMoC_GT_FS
talents=0001112

copy=Steady_AMoC_GT_LW
talents=0001113

copy=Steady_AMoC_PS_EM
talents=0001121

copy=Steady_AMoC_PS_FS
talents=0001122

copy=Steady_AMoC_PS_LW
talents=0001123

copy=Steady_AMoC_Barr_EM
talents=0001131

copy=Steady_AMoC_Barr_FS
talents=0001132

copy=Steady_AMoC_Barr_LW
talents=0001133


copy=Steady_BS_None_EM
talents=0001201

copy=Steady_BS_None_FS
talents=0001202

copy=Steady_BS_None_LW
talents=0001203

copy=Steady_BS_GT_EM
talents=0001211

copy=Steady_BS_GT_FS
talents=0001212

copy=Steady_BS_GT_LW
talents=0001213

copy=Steady_BS_PS_EM
talents=0001221

copy=Steady_BS_PS_FS
talents=0001222

copy=Steady_BS_PS_LW
talents=0001223

copy=Steady_BS_Barr_EM
talents=0001231

copy=Steady_BS_Barr_FS
talents=0001232

copy=Steady_BS_Barr_LW
talents=0001233


copy=Steady_Stamp_None_EM
talents=0001301

copy=Steady_Stamp_None_FS
talents=0001302

copy=Steady_Stamp_None_LW
talents=0001303

copy=Steady_Stamp_GT_EM
talents=0001311

copy=Steady_Stamp_GT_FS
talents=0001312

copy=Steady_Stamp_GT_LW
talents=0001313

copy=Steady_Stamp_PS_EM
talents=0001321

copy=Steady_Stamp_PS_FS
talents=0001322

copy=Steady_Stamp_PS_LW
talents=0001323

copy=Steady_Stamp_Barr_EM
talents=0001331

copy=Steady_Stamp_Barr_FS
talents=0001332

copy=Steady_Stamp_Barr_LW
talents=0001333



copy=DB_AMoC_None_EM
talents=0002101

copy=DB_AMoC_None_FS
talents=0002102

copy=DB_AMoC_None_LW
talents=0002103

copy=DB_AMoC_GT_EM
talents=0002111

copy=DB_AMoC_GT_FS
talents=0002112

copy=DB_AMoC_GT_LW
talents=0002113

copy=DB_AMoC_PS_EM
talents=0002121

copy=DB_AMoC_PS_FS
talents=0002122

copy=DB_AMoC_PS_LW
talents=0002123

copy=DB_AMoC_Barr_EM
talents=0002131

copy=DB_AMoC_Barr_FS
talents=0002132

copy=DB_AMoC_Barr_LW
talents=0002133


copy=DB_BS_None_EM
talents=0002201

copy=DB_BS_None_FS
talents=0002202

copy=DB_BS_None_LW
talents=0002203

copy=DB_BS_GT_EM
talents=0002211

copy=DB_BS_GT_FS
talents=0002212

copy=DB_BS_GT_LW
talents=0002213

copy=DB_BS_PS_EM
talents=0002221

copy=DB_BS_PS_FS
talents=0002222

copy=DB_BS_PS_LW
talents=0002223

copy=DB_BS_Barr_EM
talents=0002231

copy=DB_BS_Barr_FS
talents=0002232

copy=DB_BS_Barr_LW
talents=0002233


copy=DB_Stamp_None_EM
talents=0002301

copy=DB_Stamp_None_FS
talents=0002302

copy=DB_Stamp_None_LW
talents=0002303

copy=DB_Stamp_GT_EM
talents=0002311

copy=DB_Stamp_GT_FS
talents=0002312

copy=DB_Stamp_GT_LW
talents=0002313

copy=DB_Stamp_PS_EM
talents=0002321

copy=DB_Stamp_PS_FS
talents=0002322

copy=DB_Stamp_PS_LW
talents=0002323

copy=DB_Stamp_Barr_EM
talents=0002331

copy=DB_Stamp_Barr_FS
talents=0002332

copy=DB_Stamp_Barr_LW
talents=0002333


copy=TotH_AMoC_None_EM
talents=0003101

copy=TotH_AMoC_None_FS
talents=0003102

copy=TotH_AMoC_None_LW
talents=0003103

copy=TotH_AMoC_GT_EM
talents=0003111

copy=TotH_AMoC_GT_FS
talents=0003112

copy=TotH_AMoC_GT_LW
talents=0003113

copy=TotH_AMoC_PS_EM
talents=0003121

copy=TotH_AMoC_PS_FS
talents=0003122

copy=TotH_AMoC_PS_LW
talents=0003123

copy=TotH_AMoC_Barr_EM
talents=0003131

copy=TotH_AMoC_Barr_FS
talents=0003132

copy=TotH_AMoC_Barr_LW
talents=0003133


copy=TotH_BS_None_EM
talents=0003201

copy=TotH_BS_None_FS
talents=0003202

copy=TotH_BS_None_LW
talents=0003203

copy=TotH_BS_GT_EM
talents=0003211

copy=TotH_BS_GT_FS
talents=0003212

copy=TotH_BS_GT_LW
talents=0003213

copy=TotH_BS_PS_EM
talents=0003221

copy=TotH_BS_PS_FS
talents=0003222

copy=TotH_BS_PS_LW
talents=0003223

copy=TotH_BS_Barr_EM
talents=0003231

copy=TotH_BS_Barr_FS
talents=0003232

copy=TotH_BS_Barr_LW
talents=0003233


copy=TotH_Stamp_None_EM
talents=0003301

copy=TotH_Stamp_None_FS
talents=0003302

copy=TotH_Stamp_None_LW
talents=0003303

copy=TotH_Stamp_GT_EM
talents=0003311

copy=TotH_Stamp_GT_FS
talents=0003312

copy=TotH_Stamp_GT_LW
talents=0003313

copy=TotH_Stamp_PS_EM
talents=0003321

copy=TotH_Stamp_PS_FS
talents=0003322

copy=TotH_Stamp_PS_LW
talents=0003323

copy=TotH_Stamp_Barr_EM
talents=0003331

copy=TotH_Stamp_Barr_FS
talents=0003332

copy=TotH_Stamp_Barr_LW
talents=0003333

Basically, paste this after your simcraft profile, and simcraft will test all talent combinations, including the ones completely without Barrage / GT on single target. 

 

As for Explosive Trap - yes, it's supposed to be a tiny DPS gain. The point is not to dish out more DPS via Trap itself, but use the Trap to smoothen the rotation when you have an empty GCD, and using other abilities would be suboptimal. 

 

I don't think simcraft can even be used to test that. It would probably require a very precise tuning of action priority list, not something I'd care to do. 

 

I found  very helpful your suggestion about the optimization of surv rotation and i'd like to ask you somenthing more about it in multi target situations like tectus or brackenspore or twin ogron and in particular about the use of barrage, if you use it and if yes how you use it. 

 

When i use barrage often it's a mess to manage focus and many times i have to chose if use Barrage and delaying black arrow and explosive shot or use Barrage really few time. As Blood elf arcane torrent sometimes help me but it's just one time every two minutes.

Yes, I use Barrage, and I especially make a point of it in multi-target situations like Ogrons and Tectus. 

 

Currently, SV is really focus starved, so against single target I don't even try using Barrage on cooldown. I use it when I have spare focus, time and every other priority (Explosive Shot, Black Arrow, Serpent Sting) has been dealt with. 

 

But when Barrage hits 2+ targets, its priority rises.

Basically, it works like this: while delaying Explosive Shot / Black Arrow because of Barrage is undesirable, it's not that big of a deal when said Barrage will do a lot of damage. The more targets the Barrage will hit, the less DPS you will lose by delaying ES / BA, if any. 

 

In 2 target situations I try my best to keep Serpent Sting rolling on both targets. For that I use Arcane Shot mouseover macro, and a TellMeWhen icon that informs me whether my mouseover target has Serpent Sting on it. 

 

Per Nnx's advice, I use Multi-Shot to keep Serpent Sting rolling on 3 targets, at 4+ targets Multi Shot becomes a focus dump replacing Arcane Shot, and at 6+ or something I just stop using Explosive Shot and Barrage altogether and just spam Multi Shot. 

Edited by Iridar
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Thx for the help, tomorrow i will try this way smile.png

 

I think this forum is really great! This is my second post on it but i read it since patch 6.0 and it helped me a lot.

 

I have another question about rotation, do u think is better to use stampede or a murder of crows?

 

I thought that in fights with adds that have to be focused (like brakenspore's adds or warmages in Imperator's fight) maybe it's better to use amoc cause you can use it many times just casting it when your target is about to die in less than 15 seconds and so amoc's cd will be refreshed and ready to be used again. what do you think? 

 

In fight with just one target or with many adds that have to die with no priority, i really don't know what is better.

Edited by Marth

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