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Wobrig

Looking to improve Sub (with new logs)

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Hi guys.

 

Since the new raids opened I settled to my new main as sub rogue.  I have improved but I no there is still alot of work needed.  I also have seen that I am struggling more with fights like tectus and twins were I see my dps dropping 3-5k dps.

 

I have some logs that are from a raid night when I was having some odd lag issues but it still flags the big difference between the single target bosses and the multi target ones. 

 

Im not that comfortable and confidant at reading logs but I have compared mine to another rogue with similar ilvl and I have seen that I seem to be casting hemo alot and not as many backstabs which is something I didnt realize I was actually doing and I do no that hemo is used to keep buffs running and backstab is the main point builder.

 

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/HkJ9Gt28YdQjaNgL#fight=104&type=damage-done&source=372

 

I am keen to improve as I am really enjoying raiding on my rogue.

 

Thanks for any advise in advance smile.png

Edited by Wobrig

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Honestly, looking at the logs it's actually not THAT much going wrong. 

  • Pots are used
  • Vanish used often
  • High S&D uptime
  • High Rupture uptime

 

The main 2 things going wrong are:

  • Pot and cooldown timing
  • Excessive Hemorrhage usage - You did like 47, should probably be <20 for a fight of that length.

 

Hemorrhage

For Hemorrhage i'll be brief, since you know you were wrong anyway: Hemorrhage damage is very low so just press the button when:

  • You need a bleed for Sanguinary Veins (with glyph)

OR both of the following are true

  • There is no Find Weakness active 
  • There is no Hemorrhage debuff already active

 

 

Cooldowns

You did 3 Shadow Dances in the fight where you could have had 5. Two missed Shadow Dances is almost 40 seconds of Find Weakness gone + a lot of hard hitting Ambushes.

 

You started the fight with an early Vanish. For opening, you should get S&D (From premeditation is enough to start), just open, get combo points. Shadow Reflection > Rupture > Shadow Dance. 

  • The Shadow Dance should probably get activated in like 5-10 seconds of the fight. 
  • The Shadow Dance Cooldown is more important to press than Vanish.

 

 

More about opener:

2 days ago the Honor Amongst Thieves got 'hotfixed' and people are still figuring out the best opener for sub. I can't really say much about it yet. 

http://www.icy-veins.com/wow/subtlety-rogue-pve-dps-rotation-cooldowns-abilities#openinggot updated today or yesterday for it. Opener could be fine as listed, I see people on mmo-champ also suggesting to open with Garrote.

 

 

Potions

You "missed" the agi potion 2 times by not having it active with cooldowns:

It should always be combined with the Shadow Reflection + Shadow Dance (and hero / lust if possible). If you open with Shadow Reflection > Rupture > Shadow Dance, the prepot will already be combined with that. And the 2nd potion should then be used around 2 minutes later when both are available again (or later if hero / lust can be combined)

 

Last note: optimizing Shadow Dance and Vanish

You should pool more energy before using Shadow Dance or Vanish. You can do 3 Ambushes every Vanish, assuming Subterfuge + Glyph of Vanish. You did 3 to 4 Vanishes (Last vanish was in the final seconds of the fight, so let's say 3) that could already be 9 Ambushes. Yet you did 17 total. Which would mean you did 17-9=8 Ambushes in the 3 remaining Shadow Dances. I don't always count my Ambushes in a Shadow Dance but it surely can be higher with better Energy management. I would guess with 3 Shadow Dances + 3 Vanishes you can get about 24 Ambushes (Rough guess though, The points is, it can be more tongue.png

Just sitting there auto-attacking for 5 seconds before a Vanish/Dance is perfectly normal.

 

 

Shadow Dance thread: http://www.icy-veins.com/forums/topic/7987-how-to-properly-use-shadow-dance/

 

 

Hope it helps,

 

Wixey

Edited by wixey

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Thanks for the reply. I never realized I was using hemo as much. As I said in opening post it was a poor connection night but it is the only logs I have. I no myself at times there was some 5 point casts followed by the same ability again due to lag but on a plus it has multiplied my errors to make it easier to spot...... I think thats a good thing anyway :s

 

I was unsure if entering SD early was a waste due to energy lvls so was trying to delay to refill energy after getting timers running. I know I am having issues during fights stupid things like casting SD with good energy but boss casts something  that you need to deal with so a complete waste or I cast SD right after a boss ability but low energy.  This is probably a sign on being new to rogue raiding :( 

 

It is something I need to try and consciously think about now that I am more comfortable with mechanics of all bosses.

 

Are my errors on the multi target bosses (tectus & twins) different or is my low damage the same errors as you have stated being multipled?  

 

I will try and get some new up to date logs as my one on wed failed to record.

Edited by Wobrig

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Ignoring what I said in my last post about not enough Shadow Dance, Hemorrhage, pooling energy for Dance & Vanish etc. What I see is:

 

You should rupture both bosses and try (obviously tricky with whirlwinds, fires and rocks falling) to achieve 100% uptime on both at the same time. If Rupture is not your highest damaging ability (after auto-attack) on Twins then mistakes were made. 

Make sure that if 1 fell off on a boss, to build combo points on the boss WITH rupture, so you benefit from Sanguiry Vein.

 

 

That aside, your dps was still fairly low. I mean, you might expect a dps more closely to the butcher fight. Reasons for this could be:

  • I think the hemorrhage problem was far greater on twins. (it actually outdamaged Backstab, which is impressive smile.png )
  • Rupturing both bosses aside, the Rupture uptime of your current target was also on the lower side.
  • 8 bursts of speed costs as much as 6 backstabs. Maybe easy on the fires, but I believe Cloak of Shadows is up for every fire phase and so is Sprint, so I suggest sticking to Shadowstep.
  • Bosses charging away from you, bosses whirlwinding you and having to back off to other boss etc. All reduced downtime on the boss.  PS: if you get caught by surprise and boss is using whirlwind, you can pop evasion and dodge it all.
  • In general Butcher is a lot easier for movement, targeting etc than twins. Even though we can dot 2 targets, don't expect much (if any) dps increases on twins compared to butcher.

So all in all, the first 2 bullets are basically optimizing Rupture, the final bullets are pretty much just getting better at the fight, get used to it, and expect boss abilities.

 

 

Also, I'm not doing it myself, but I feel like I should mention it:

Sims and guides suggest using Fan of Knives instead of Backstab as soon as you can hit 2 targets (when they're in range). And also to replace Eviscerate with Crimson Tempest (Unless your main target has Find Weakness, then still use Eviscerate).

I have not tested this enough myself to say this is the way to go. Fact is 2-3 sub rogues out of the warcraftlogs top 10 use this method on Twins, the other 7-8 don't, so it can work.

 

I think the difference between normal single target rotation and Fan of Knives + Tempest seems pretty small. I guess the AoE strat will get better and better the more mastery we got, but for now they seem pretty close.

Edited by wixey

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Also, I'm not doing it myself, but I feel like I should mention it:

Sims and guides suggest using Fan of Knives instead of Backstab as soon as you can hit 2 targets (when they're in range). And also to replace Eviscerate with Crimson Tempest (Unless your main target has Find Weakness, then still use Eviscerate).

I have not tested this enough myself to say this is the way to go. Fact is 2-3 sub rogues out of the warcraftlogs top 10 use this method on Twins, the other 7-8 don't, so it can work.

 

I think the difference between normal single target rotation and Fan of Knives + Tempest seems pretty small. I guess the AoE strat will get better and better the more mastery we got, but for now they seem pretty close.

 

That was actually going to be my comment. FoK is more energy efficient for cp generation, and when most of Sub's damage comes from Finishers, it's nicer to have more of them.

 

That said, you'll be swapping between BS and FoK during the fight as the bosses are in and out of range. Similar to Bracken, where you can start with FoK as soon as the add is in range, before going back to BS once it's dead.

 

I've never tried CT with it though. I assume they just do it to maintain the Bleed effect? That might actually be worth it, I'll have to give it a try this week

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Thanks guys for all the tips. Im going to trying work on fixing things over the weekend and I have a guild hc run on Monday so il have another go at trying to record logs. Then If anyone has spare time I would be very grateful for any further help.

 

Thanks again for your help.  

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This thread has been very helpful! I have a question about Find Weakness though. Is it worth post-poning Shadow Dance to ensure that SnD and Rupture won't fall off during it? Or should I refresh those during FW?

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It depends. If you're delaying it for a couple seconds then yes - otherwise no it's not worth it

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Hi again guys. I have trying to work on the point you gave me. Here is a new log of fights if anyone has some spare time to look over that would be gear.

 

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/aZ3JHzd2hxvtgkNC#type=damage-done&fight=23&source=19

 

I have concentrating on cutting out as many hemo, more backstabs and trying to get better at the energy pooling before dance. I have noticed that my up times are a bit lower on S&D but im hopping that is due to trying to break old habits and once settled it will become higher.  I still find myself having to tell myself to leave hemo and im unsure were I got this bad habit from, maybe from tanking when lvling so not being behind adds as much.

 

Thanks again for all your help.

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Hi guys me again :(

 

Can you please look over my new logs.  I feel I have sorted my problem alittle with the energy pooling also the odd spamming of hemo but now I have low S&D and Rupture uptime. Is there any other silly mistakes that im missing on?

 

single target

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/gn31LKTc98WMChwD#type=damage-done&fight=5&source=29

 

cleave fight I feel im doing better

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/gn31LKTc98WMChwD#type=damage-done&fight=8&source=29

 

but Im still very bad at tectus

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/gn31LKTc98WMChwD#type=damage-done&fight=13&source=29

 

Im still really enjoying myself as sub and it was the right choice for me to change main. I feel im improving but still need some work. Anyone willing to look over my logs and pass on your wisdom would be fantastic.  

 

Thanks in advanced 

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Single target

The only issue were uptimes like you said. And the 2nd rogue_shadow_reflection.jpgShadow Reflection was used a bit randomly but I know you know how it should be used judging by the other fights.

 

Note that if you go compare yourself to other ranking rogues of your item level... It's a bit difficult to compare cause I bet those rogues will have the best enchants on weapons / gear, and probably the coin trinket. You'll naturally perform less than them even if you do it right.

 

Cleave fight

Your dps is higher on the fight. But don't forget you also have a 25% uptime of the blue mushroom giving you 30% haste.

ability_rogue_rupture.jpgRupture uptime is also lacking a bit. It shows 88% total. But filtering out Brackenspore itself only it drops to 78%, which in theory could be a 100. Most of the gaps of ability_rogue_rupture.jpgRupture uptime happen during Flesh Eater phases, but 

1) that shouldn't be a reason anyway

2) sometimes ability_rogue_rupture.jpgRupture fell off without you hitting flesh eater

See the seperate uptimes here  (boss on top, Flesh Eater is graph below) : https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/gn31LKTc98WMChwD#type=auras&fight=8&source=29&spells=debuffs&target=86&by=target&pins=0%24Separate%24%23ff0000%24auras-cast%240%240.0.0.Any%2497552956.0.0.Rogue%24true%2478491.0.0.Boss%24false%241943%5E0%24Separate%24%23ff0000%24auras-cast%240%240.0.0.Any%2497552956.0.0.Rogue%24true%2479092.0.0.NPC%24false%241943

 

Other than ability_rogue_rupture.jpgRupture uptime, everything else seemed fine.

 

Tectus

Your ability_rogue_rupture.jpgRupture damage is high, but still too low smile.png Getting high dps on that fight is really all about putting ability_rogue_rupture.jpgRupture on every single Tectus available and keeping inv_knife_1h_cataclysm_c_05.jpgCrimson Tempest up.

You probably have a skull marker but tbh if you want high dps as subtetly, you won't really be dealing a big amount of damage to it compared to the others. Only your auto attacks will make the difference.

So if you really want high dps you must sort of ignore your raid leader and not focus the skull that hard (Because you will be plenty busy with ruptures on all of them)

 

 

 

And yes, I only just discovered the wowhead linking in posts - I'm sorry.

Edited by wixey

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Sorry for the late reply.  Thanks for all your hints and tips.  I have been working on my uptimes and looking at last night mythic my S&D was higher uptime into the mid to high 90's but rupture still isnt were it needs to be and on average I was in the mid 80's.

 

I will keep working on this and I wont pester you guys till I have atleast change the current errors biggrin.png

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