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Holy Paladin stat priorities

24 replies to this topic Started by FranticTiger, May 29 2012 09:15 PM paladin holy
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Posted 29 May 2012 - 09:15 PM

#1
FranticTiger
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Hello there. I've got a few gripes with the stat priority you suggest for Holy Paladins (here http://www.icy-veins...ority-reforging), specifically the value of Haste Rating. I understand that it helps provide certain extra ticks to Holy Radiance, but my question is why would we still stack Haste Rating in between the breakpoints, if we can't reach the next one? I think it would be better to leave Haste Rating at the breakpoint and get more Mastery or Crit. The Holy Paladins I know (the best on our realm) agree with me. Then, there is the question of the 2284 Haste Rating breakpoint - you don't say anything about it. Why is this? After you reach that stage, the next extra tick from Holy Radiance is very very far away, and you won't be getting to it this expansion. Anyway, great guide and great website, but this is a little confusing to me. I understand Haste Rating's value, but surely it's better to have Mastery and Crit instead of "unused" haste?

Posted 30 May 2012 - 04:27 PM

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Stoove
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I understand Haste Rating's value, but surely it's better to have Mastery and Crit instead of "unused" haste?


From what I understand, it depends on how much you value the faster ticks from Holy Radiance. Since between thresholds your HoTs tick faster (thus increasing your HPS but lowering your HR uptime), you could think of it as stability against burst - having Haste inbetween breakpoints will prevent you from having the maximum HR's up at once, but it will mean that the healing from HR is frontloaded so it's (slightly) more bursty.

I haven't done any maths for this so I don't know whether this would be a noticeable effect or not, though!

Would you be better off stacking another stat if you can't reach the next Haste threshold? Well, based on the gearing for Shaman (I don't play a Paladin) I would guess at yes - Haste's benefit inbetween thresholds will probably be less than if stacking lots on Crit or Mastery. OTOH, that depends on how much you like Crit/Mastery and if your playstyle will take advantage of it; from what I've read, Mastery heavy builds are good but require a different style.

Hope that helps, I'm sure someone more qualified will come along and prove me wrong <3

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Posted 30 May 2012 - 10:43 PM

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Vlad
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Hello there.

I've got a few gripes with the stat priority you suggest for Holy Paladins (here http://www.icy-veins...ority-reforging), specifically the value of Haste Rating.

I understand that it helps provide certain extra ticks to Holy Radiance, but my question is why would we still stack Haste Rating in between the breakpoints, if we can't reach the next one? I think it would be better to leave Haste Rating at the breakpoint and get more Mastery or Crit. The Holy Paladins I know (the best on our realm) agree with me.

Then, there is the question of the 2284 Haste Rating breakpoint - you don't say anything about it. Why is this? After you reach that stage, the next extra tick from Holy Radiance is very very far away, and you won't be getting to it this expansion.

Anyway, great guide and great website, but this is a little confusing to me. I understand Haste Rating's value, but surely it's better to have Mastery and Crit instead of "unused" haste?


Rest assured that we did not overlook anything when we wrote the stat priority for Holy Paladins. We are well aware of the existence of the various haste breakpoints (or soft caps, as we prefer to call them), including the 2284 one.

The reason that we do not mention them is because, from a throughput and reliability standpoint, Haste Rating is the best statistic for a Holy Paladin. To make it even clearer, it is the best stat for a Holy Paladin even if we do not count the extra Holy Radiance ticks. The result of this is that you should go with a mentality of "Haste Rating everywhere", and never ever consider sacrificing any potential Haste Rating for more Mastery or Crit.

This is due in part to the fact that Haste Rating is a great way to heal, since it enables you to better time your heals and react to various situations. For this reason, unless a new class mechanic emerges that makes Critical Strike Rating have some amazing effect, Haste Rating will always be better than Critical Strike Rating. Even if Critical Strike Rating results in "big free heals", they are uncontrollable and their overhealing cannot be avoided. It's nice free burst healing, but you don't choose when.

More importantly, Haste Rating is valued very highly for Holy Paladins because Mastery Rating is very, very weak. It has been recently buffed, but it remains a weak statistic.

The point of all of this is that there is no mention of soft haste caps because you should never bother with them. Even if you are at 2284 Haste Rating, you should get more (top Holy Paladins are playing with over 2500 Haste Rating).

Posted 31 May 2012 - 09:09 AM

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Hmm, well that comprehensively proved me wrong! :) Does Crit not proc anything? (this seems silly to me, as a Shaman!) I have to agree with the logic given by Vlad, assuming that Haste really is that good compared to everything else!

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Posted 01 June 2012 - 06:39 PM

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VendettaVera
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Haste is mostly important do to the fact that almost all Holy Pally healing spells have a cast time, and a long one at that. Moar haste makes it much much easier to heal in my opinion.

Posted 01 June 2012 - 06:52 PM

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Vlad
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Hmm, well that comprehensively proved me wrong! Posted Image Does Crit not proc anything? (this seems silly to me, as a Shaman!)


Crit procs two things for Holy Paladins:
  • Infusion of Light - if you crit with Holy Shock, then the cast time of your next Holy Light or Divine Light is reduced greatly and your next Flash of Light is instant cast. This is definitely useful when it happens but it's not valuable enough to make stacking Crit ever an option.
  • Conviction - whenever your crit with a heal, you stack a buff on yourself, up to 3 times, increasing the healing you do by 3% per stack. The buff lasts 15 seconds so even without prioritising Crit at all you will still have maximum uptime.
Posted Image

Haste is mostly important do to the fact that almost all Holy Pally healing spells have a cast time, and a long one at that. Moar haste makes it much much easier to heal in my opinion.


This is true.

Posted 12 June 2012 - 01:58 AM

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I kind of forgot I posted this and I forgot to check back! Sorry! Alright, I see your points. I've looked up some high level armory profiles and I notice you're right, most of them seem to just be piling on Haste Rating even well past any "cap". Shame on me for not looking things up first through this rather basic investigative method. I may tell my guildies about it, although they seem rather set in their ways. I suppose you get this next question a lot, but I feel compelled to ask it: do you know if the importance of Haste Rating will be staying the same in Mists of Pandaria? Obviously, the amount of rating required will change... Thanks so much for providing argumented answers. I really love this forums and your website as a whole. Top of the line stuff, keep it up!

Posted 12 June 2012 - 03:35 AM

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Vlad
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Thanks for your compliments. The Holy Paladin stats, despite being seemingly obvious, have always been a point of contention among players. Your concerns were perfectly legitimate. Regarding the stat priority in Mists of Pandaria, it is, honestly, impossible to tell at this point. All I can say is that so far I haven't seen anything that would indicate an obvious need for change. Although, I haven't played my Holy Paladin much on the Beta yet.

Posted 12 June 2012 - 05:09 PM

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I'm just bumping this so that my sticky doesn't appear as the "last post" in this section on the board index :P

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Posted 03 July 2012 - 05:59 PM

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Jaenny
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Haste is probably the best stat for the Holy Paladin, simply because of the holy radiance, the reduced cast time and also the reduced global cooldown.
BUT there are (were.. DS:hc prenerf mainly) options, where e.g. many Paladins reforged to Mastery at some point (E.g Spine hc, because of the debuff and stacking mastery to absorb damage), and it has become quite a strong stat.
The argument with haste being important only because of the holy radiance, I believe is not very logical, simply because we don't always use holy radiance!
And crit is simply burst healing, it indeed is strong, and we can make good use of it, but it is a -random and unreliable- occurrence, which is not being favored by most Pally heals, especially during progress, where everything counts.
Haste/Mastery are the safest to go, and haste also actually does scale a bit better mathematically Posted Image

I hope I could help you a bit.

Edited by Jaenny, 03 July 2012 - 05:59 PM.

Posted 01 October 2012 - 05:00 PM

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Kushiel
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I recently started playing again and am having trouble healing with the current stat priority. I played during the first part of cata and i stacked crit and never had a problem and i was usually low on the overheals. With stacking haste i am having to heal alot more and my heal just arent doing enough and im running oom. I have a 442 ilvl so im not top geared atm but it doesn't look like its gonna change even with a little more gear. I do use reforgelite so if that is my problem let me know pls. thanks for the help
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Posted 19 October 2012 - 06:38 PM

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Anahitaxz
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I recently started playing again and am having trouble healing with the current stat priority. I played during the first part of cata and i stacked crit and never had a problem and i was usually low on the overheals. With stacking haste i am having to heal alot more and my heal just arent doing enough and im running oom. I have a 442 ilvl so im not top geared atm but it doesn't look like its gonna change even with a little more gear. I do use reforgelite so if that is my problem let me know pls. thanks for the help


Hpally healing in this expansion has changed a lot since cata. There is a blue post linked on the guide I believe, but paladins have been given a gift and a curse through holy power. You're going to find yourself in a pretty difficult situation if you attempt to heal as you did in cata with current MP5. My best suggestion is to focus on less heals, more impact. What I mean by that is stacking your holy power and using your talents effectively.

To deal with MP5 issues right now I have a +spirit trinket and an int trinket with a "use" for spirit. I also took Divine Purpose as a talent, which will give you free 3 power holy procs. These are extremely beneficial right now, and while they will be phased out as time goes right now it is your best bet to help deal with lack of mana. I think the biggest thing is there should be a major mindset change in your healing priority. The majority of your heals are now going to impact holy power and the expectation is you continue to use your free holy power heals as much as possible. You can't just throw out Divine Lights, or really holy lights at this point and maintain consistent mana. Use Holy Shock on cooldown, if you really need to heal the raid use Light of Dawn, and if you find yourself not having the holy power cast Holy Radiance > Holy shock, as Holy shock becomes empowered.

As stated in another post, Eternal Flame (talent) is a great way to keep your heals going without changing anything. It's a 30 second HoT that can stack on multiple targets, and 1/2 the heal will transfer to your Beacon of Light.

And gear definitely matters. I'm sitting at 470 and I can attest that I have the spellpower to make my heals more effective then pre-heroic gear.

Posted 02 November 2012 - 05:18 AM

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I recently started playing again and am having trouble healing with the current stat priority. I played during the first part of cata and i stacked crit and never had a problem and i was usually low on the overheals. With stacking haste i am having to heal alot more and my heal just arent doing enough and im running oom. I have a 442 ilvl so im not top geared atm but it doesn't look like its gonna change even with a little more gear. I do use reforgelite so if that is my problem let me know pls. thanks for the help


A month late, but meh, this post is still near the top of this forum.

It's because Icy Veins is wrong, or the information is outdated. Stat priorities are: Spirit > Int > Mastery > Haste > Crit. At some point your swap Haste and Mastery, but that point isn't until you're in heroic raid gear. Top world holy paladins are hitting 13k spirit and sitting on ~2.6k haste.

It's bugging me because IV is still passing out misinformation, making everyone's LFR that much more painful. The fact that Vlad still has people using Ember Primal Diamond is just absurd.

Edited by Moira, 02 November 2012 - 05:19 AM.

Posted 02 November 2012 - 05:41 AM

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I know both Mastery stacked and Haste stacked Holy Pallys who are doing extremely well this expansion, and I do think it's a play style choice with no clear right or wrong, despite what people are suggesting here. I personally stacked Spirit and Mastery for the time being, what with the mana issues that seem to be plaguing all healers in pre-raid gear. As I feel more comfy with my mana management and requirements, I'll peel some Spirit out into Intellect and have a look at whether I want to go Haste instead of Mastery. I good friend of mine did Spirit and Haste, and we're constantly trying to outdo each other, sometimes I "win", sometimes she does. I don't think either of us are wrong, but we're doing our best to prove one side or the other! Spirit, Spirit, Spirit seems to be the most important thing in the early stages, then you can choose whether you like to flail like a lunatic (haste) or absorb/nuke heal (Mastery). Both are viable in my opinion, as is Ember Primal Diamond....I'm not sure where the vitriol towards Vlad is coming from for suggesting that...

Edited by Kalkii, 02 November 2012 - 05:42 AM.

Posted 02 November 2012 - 08:49 AM

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A month late, but meh, this post is still near the top of this forum.

It's because Icy Veins is wrong, or the information is outdated. Stat priorities are: Spirit > Int > Mastery > Haste > Crit. At some point your swap Haste and Mastery, but that point isn't until you're in heroic raid gear. Top world holy paladins are hitting 13k spirit and sitting on ~2.6k haste.

It's bugging me because IV is still passing out misinformation, making everyone's LFR that much more painful. The fact that Vlad still has people using Ember Primal Diamond is just absurd.


Hey.

Just to let you know, I am aware of the issue and have been for a while (I admitted as much in the Holy Paladin comments thread). We've been truly swamped with things like the new raid guides and so on and haven't been able to get to this as quickly as we would have liked. I updated the guide to recommend Spirit > Haste > Mastery, with the Revitalizing Meta and assorted gems yesterday, but we haven't had the chance to get the change live yet (see above about being swamped). I do honestly believe that Haste trumps Mastery, so I went with that, even though the two stats are much closer now than they were before in Cataclysm.

That said, I think you're overreacting a tiny bit about the repercussions of this. The difference that a shift in stat priorities makes, especially for a healer who doesn't have Hit or Expertise caps to reach, is very small in practice. Ironically, even though it's by far the most heavily researched and contentious point for all classes/specs, it's the one with the lowest incidence on actual performance (spell usage is infinitely more important, and if you sneeze once during the fight and miss two global cooldowns, you've already off-set any extra bonus you got from that stat priority).

Thank you nonetheless.

I know both Mastery stacked and Haste stacked Holy Pallys who are doing extremely well this expansion, and I do think it's a play style choice with no clear right or wrong, despite what people are suggesting here.

I personally stacked Spirit and Mastery for the time being, what with the mana issues that seem to be plaguing all healers in pre-raid gear. As I feel more comfy with my mana management and requirements, I'll peel some Spirit out into Intellect and have a look at whether I want to go Haste instead of Mastery. I good friend of mine did Spirit and Haste, and we're constantly trying to outdo each other, sometimes I "win", sometimes she does. I don't think either of us are wrong, but we're doing our best to prove one side or the other! Spirit, Spirit, Spirit seems to be the most important thing in the early stages, then you can choose whether you like to flail like a lunatic (haste) or absorb/nuke heal (Mastery). Both are viable in my opinion, as is Ember Primal Diamond....I'm not sure where the vitriol towards Vlad is coming from for suggesting that...


Thank you for your post, too :)

As I answered above, I feel that Haste and Mastery are very well balanced right now and they are, as you said, a play style choice. I go to some lengths in the updated stats page (which is yet to be up) to point out their relative equality, but do suggest Haste in the end.

Regarding the Ember Primal Diamond, I am afraid that Moira is right, and Revitalizing is the better choice in the world where Spirit is king (though the vitriol is somewhat uncalled for :))

Posted 02 November 2012 - 11:58 AM

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Hey.

Just to let you know, I am aware of the issue and have been for a while (I admitted as much in the Holy Paladin comments thread). We've been truly swamped with things like the new raid guides and so on and haven't been able to get to this as quickly as we would have liked. I updated the guide to recommend Spirit > Haste > Mastery, with the Revitalizing Meta and assorted gems yesterday, but we haven't had the chance to get the change live yet (see above about being swamped). I do honestly believe that Haste trumps Mastery, so I went with that, even though the two stats are much closer now than they were before in Cataclysm.

That said, I think you're overreacting a tiny bit about the repercussions of this. The difference that a shift in stat priorities makes, especially for a healer who doesn't have Hit or Expertise caps to reach, is very small in practice. Ironically, even though it's by far the most heavily researched and contentious point for all classes/specs, it's the one with the lowest incidence on actual performance (spell usage is infinitely more important, and if you sneeze once during the fight and miss two global cooldowns, you've already off-set any extra bonus you got from that stat priority).

Thank you nonetheless.



Thank you for your post, too Posted Image

As I answered above, I feel that Haste and Mastery are very well balanced right now and they are, as you said, a play style choice. I go to some lengths in the updated stats page (which is yet to be up) to point out their relative equality, but do suggest Haste in the end.

Regarding the Ember Primal Diamond, I am afraid that Moira is right, and Revitalizing is the better choice in the world where Spirit is king (though the vitriol is somewhat uncalled for Posted Image)


Realize your audience. The people coming to IV to rely on these guides aren't in progression guilds. They're playing they're 4th or 5th alt sitting on quest greens, still running heroics, and trying to gear up to LFR ilvl (or just over that hump). You telling holy paladins to stack haste instead of mastery is directly leading to wipes in LFR and heroics because they're running oom and have no idea why (just go look at the WoW forums for this). Mastery gives absorbs and provides healers the ability to withstand long 5man bosses with low DPS.

Yes, there is a point where you can interchange Haste and Mastery. That point isn't applicable to people reading this guide.

BTW, the vitriol comes because recommending the Ember Primal Diamond represents a total lack of understanding of the changes in Holy Paladins. Before Cata, Intellect provided bonus crit, and thus regen, and increased regen through divine plea by expanding your mana pool. Intellect now solely and strictly increases the size of your heals. Yes, it increases your mana pool by 6,000; but, 243 Spirit * 1.1287 * 0.50 (meditation) provides 137.137 MP5. If a fight lasts 3 minutes, 39 seconds, you've now regenerated more than 6,000 mana. Currently, mana is still an issue for all healers. Unless you're doing heroic Gara'jol, there's no reason to even gem pure Int: you're gemming int/spirit even in red sockets.

I'm glad to hear some changes are in store though.

EDIT: Derp, math.

Edited by Moira, 02 November 2012 - 05:56 PM.

Posted 06 November 2012 - 03:22 AM

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Kushiel
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Sorry to get stuff started and not keep up on the posts. I am in a progression guild Moira but its on a low server so things are kind of slow going. I am currently using Spirit>Mastery>Haste> Crit and all the gems i have are spirit also to include my meta. I am now sitting at a 474 Ilvl and mana regen issues have started to fall off untill we hit Elegon. Now its a problem of not enough umph behind the heals that I am casting. The reason I posted on here looking for help is because I was stumped. I had heard from my raidlead about IV and decided to give it a try since i haven't been able to find much current info on Holy Pally problems this expansion. Vlad no offense but I don't agree with your statement, "I think you're overreacting a tiny bit about the repercussions of this." When you look at it from a "noobs" point of view it is a big problem because bad heals=wipes no matter where you are. Look at it this way, if the healer is having major mana issues he/she won't be able to heal the 5man properly and in which case they will get kicked for something they don't understand. I a 10man raid (like me) low heals or improper heals amount to multiple wipes. I have gotten a lot better with my heals but there is always room for improvement. So far Divine Purpose is working wonderful and so is Eternal Flame. I anyone has any suggestions to help with heals please let me know. Any info with help.
I am a Paladin. I fear nothing. If you see me running, Keep Up.

Posted 06 November 2012 - 02:39 PM

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Vlad
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My point wasn't that there are no repercussions to healing poorly or to running out of mana, or to players dying. Of course there are. My point is that people grossly overstate the importance of the stat priority for healing classes (I'd go so far as to say for most classes, in fact, but to a lesser extent). Is having the "right" stat priority a benefit? Yes! Is having the "right" stat priority for your current encounter and playstyle/role a benefit? Absolutely! Is having the right stat priority as important as anticipating a spike of damage properly, using the correct spell, not missing a few global cooldowns over the course of the fight? No, it's not. I'm not using this to say "learn your class, we aren't going to bother with stat priorities". We are always "bothering" with stat priorities, but they're far less clear-cut than some people would like to think. If you're running out of mana, and this is causing people to die and causing a wipe, I dare say it has a lot more to do with not using the correct spells, not stacking enough Spirit (or having too low level gear), or having to heal things you wouldn't normally have to heal (players taking unnecessary damage) than it does with having slightly less Haste so you cast fewer heals. Moira, you speak from a position of authority that I'm not sure I understand. How do you know our audience better than we do? How can you so nonchalantly state that players who read our guides aren't in progression guilds? What are you basing this on? Evidence? Assumptions? Anecdotal quips? I'm sorry, but your tone is inappropriate. Your contribution is very much appreciated (and I will actually alter the stat priority/section further based on it), but I would appreciate it if you tried to have a friendlier tone.

Posted 07 November 2012 - 08:23 PM

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Kushiel
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Well a lot of my mana issues have fixed themselves. Now on to another problem. I recently ran with another pally healer and got stomped on hps and overall healing but we have basiclly the same gear if not me being higher geared. How is this possible? Is it stat priority or just me being a shitty heals? I have recently redone my stats with haste above mastery and it seem to be better than mastery as king. If anyone has ideas to improve on let me know.
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Posted 07 November 2012 - 08:44 PM

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Vladamyr
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My point wasn't that there are no repercussions to healing poorly or to running out of mana, or to players dying. Of course there are. My point is that people grossly overstate the importance of the stat priority for healing classes (I'd go so far as to say for most classes, in fact, but to a lesser extent).


THIS!

Posted Image This might be my favorite post of all time, I wish I could push the like button all day! Posted Image

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