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have state weights changed?

21 replies to this topic Started by vaeevictiss, Nov 06 2012 09:05 PM
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Posted 06 November 2012 - 09:05 PM

#1
vaeevictiss
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I ran a sim today and have several more pieces of better gear than last time (unfortunately no one in my guild seems to want to raid anymore so lfr is the best i can do right now). Oddly, my haste and mastery numbers are further apart, with haste in a strong lead.

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My hit is low because i have been testing the cap theory out. My dps has gone up since i dropped hit so im fine with that for now. My haste is already at the 8% mark and the rest is mastery. How come haste is still showing out so strong?
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Posted 07 November 2012 - 01:13 AM

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Chobani
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Yeah. I really don't know what's going on here either. There's a 4 page through on MMO Champions about this and every just argues about "haste thresholds." None of the top Warlocks are stacking haste though. I ignored hasted and stacked mastery, ran sim and it was giving me haste as a 3.00 stat weight . . . higher than int. If you plot your stat weights, haste probably even continues to outweigh mastery with no "plateaus" or thresholds that are in sight. Not sure what's going on either.

Posted 07 November 2012 - 06:56 AM

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Scale Factors for Zagam Int = 3.86 Hit = 1.18 Crit = 1.06 Haste = 2.05 Mastery = 1.53 Stats: Haste = 8.23% (3042 rating) Crit = 11.12% Hit = 14.72% (4875 rating) Mastery = 58.16% (6453 rating) DPS = 69,722 This is my simulation look at ilvl 485. I have no idea what is going on here. This also blows all the work I did earlier with my gems. These stat weights say pour your gems into Intellect and Haste. Ugh. Now I can see where Haste is beneficial. More ticks with Malefic Grasp, more Corruption ticks = more Haunts, and faster Drain Soul = better execute damage. But I'm having a hard time grasping this simcraft work. Now, let's take a look at the preloaded model for T14N... Scale Factors for T14N Profile Int - 4.23 Hit - 1.83 Crit - 1.54 Haste - 2.29 Mastery - 2.36 Here, we see Haste and Mastery are close, but Mastery is preferred. Let's look at the stats: Hit = 14.86% (5053 rating) Haste = 12.10% (5144 rating) Crit = 11.53% Mastery = 50.19% (4911 rating) DPS = 102,125 Now, from what I can see, the T14N model has FAR less mastery than I do and much more haste. My guess is these stat weights calculate how much DPS comes per point of mastery and haste. Because the T14N model has less mastery, it may be getting a higher stat weight because of how much it gets. More confusion sets in...why would it have less mastery than haste if mastery is valued higher? Well, since at the normal item level it assumes as much, let's take a look at the pre-loaded BiS T14H list... Scale Factors for T14H Profile Int - 4.79 Hit - 2.42 Crit - 1.91 Haste - 2.10 Mastery - 2.74 Now we see Mastery being very highly rated...and Hit overtakes Haste! Can Warlock scaling really be this dynamically...ridiculous? Let's look at the stats... Haste = 15.51% (6590 rating) Hit = 15.00% (5100 rating) Crit = 11.70% Mastery = 66.93% (8152 rating) So clearly here, we see a TON of Mastery rating. I think tomorrow I'm going to run more simulations, but for now, I'm making the following recommendation... Item Level 463 - 490ish Haste > Mastery > Hit > Crit Item Level 490ish - 500ish Mastery > Haste > Hit > Crit Item Level 500+ Mastery > Hit > Haste > Crit I also recommend gemming pure Intellect until you're at an item level over 490. Then start shoving gems into Mastery if the socket bonus is good. I apologize to all those who took heed to the previous guides I've written. I'll put some more work into this, but simcraft is just playing with my head at this point. If anyone with solid work in simcraft would like to make a couple of pointers, I'd be more than happy to hear them.

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 07:12 AM

#4
Damien
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What spec are we talking about?

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 07:14 AM

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Chobani
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Honestly, I'm in the same boat as you man. From what I'm understanding, these stat weights are heavily reliant on the type of fight (not saying they ever weren't). I've seen a lot of people going for 4717 haste then just stacking mastery at this point (ilvl 470-90). I just did this myself and resimmed and now I'm getting mastery > haste. I need to do more simming myself, but I think the goal with this is to keep a happy medium between mastery and haste since one will always outperform the other based on fight mechanics and if I'm expected to be reforging on a fight by fight basis, I'll probably quit playing.

Posted 07 November 2012 - 07:24 AM

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What spec are we talking about?


Affliction

Posted 07 November 2012 - 07:39 AM

#7
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Yeah. I just shoved to the "4717" limit (mine is 4250 because I'm a Goblin) and I dropped to 13.52% hit. I still HATE missing, but I feel like my stubborn ways are holding me back. By all means, I did 153k to Elegon, 80k to Will of the Emperors, and maintained 74k on Gara'jal. I just feel like...it's impossibe. I'm about ready to raid as the inferior Destruction just because you have to hit cap and it doesn't matter what stat you pick lol...but whatever. I'll just keep treading along until something clears up. But maybe this is only an issue at low levels of stats. Maybe in T15 and T16, it won't even be up for debate. You'll just force Mastery upon yourself and you'll love it because it won't even be possible to talk yourself out of it.

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 08:54 AM

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Rolling anything under 14% hit is just a rage rest for me. I think there's something funky going in with simcraft ATM. A lot of these WTF HASTE?! Threads keep popping up. I really don't know what's up but the consensus I've heard so far is 4717 haste cap. There aren't a lot of fights that will favor you channeling MG to really benefit from the haste until you get the right gear, which doesn't make any sense since mastery scales higher at the top tier. When I go for 4717 and sim, things start looking normal again with mastery being slightly better than haste. Before, I was literally running with 21% haste and simcraft kept telling me MOAR HASTE! You might even be able to lower than 4717 if you account for raid buffs and bloodlust to reach that extra corruption threshold.

Posted 07 November 2012 - 09:23 AM

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So, should i run for 4717 before anything else and after stacking Mastery dont giving a single fuck to hit and let like 10% - hit chance? Oh god...

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 09:24 AM

#10
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The default profile for Affliction Warlocks has Essence of Terror as one of the trinkets. When I test, I always use Relic of Yu'lon, so I don't get a haste proc that messes up the simulation.

The stat scaling feature in SimC should not be blindly trusted. SimC has a tendency to put a lot of stress on reaching haste caps, but I'm not certain that for a player, it would always make that much of a difference. Let me show you a few example.

The T14 Heroic profile has a secondary stat budget of 2008+6590+8152 = 16750. I'll set Critical Strike Rating from gear to be at 2,000 and I'll make Haste Rating and Mastery Rating vary.

Let's first see how much impact on the DPS the various breakpoints have. For this, I check the DPS at 1 Haste Rating below the breakpoint and then again at the breakpoint. As you can see, reaching a breakpoint is not always beneficial to your DPS and even when it is, you will hardly feel the difference. That said, these are simulation results, so you shouldn't take them at face value.

Now, I'm going to try and find the best DPS value by keeping Critical Strike Rating at 2000 and making Haste Rating and Mastery Rating vary, but in such a way that Mastery Rating + Haste Rating always equals to 14750 (so I remain within the stat budget of the T14 Heroic profile).
  • 2000 Haste Rating, 12750 Mastery Rating: 124912.2 DPS
  • 2250 Haste Rating, 12500 Mastery Rating: 124838.9 DPS
  • 2500 Haste Rating, 12250 Mastery Rating: 124990.4 DPS
  • 2750 Haste Rating, 12000 Mastery Rating: 124869.5 DPS
  • 3000 Haste Rating, 11750 Mastery Rating: 124823.4 DPS
  • 3250 Haste Rating, 11500 Mastery Rating: 124841.0 DPS
  • 3500 Haste Rating, 11250 Mastery Rating: 125179.8 DPS
  • 3750 Haste Rating, 11000 Mastery Rating: 125471.4 DPS
  • 4000 Haste Rating, 10750 Mastery Rating: 125713.9 DPS
  • 4250 Haste Rating, 10500 Mastery Rating: 126439.0 DPS
  • 4500 Haste Rating, 10250 Mastery Rating: 126415.9 DPS
  • 4750 Haste Rating, 10000 Mastery Rating: 126544.0 DPS
  • 5000 Haste Rating, 9750 Mastery Rating: 126686.6 DPS
  • 5250 Haste Rating, 9500 Mastery Rating: 126716.7 DPS
  • 5500 Haste Rating, 9250 Mastery Rating: 126795.8 DPS
  • 5750 Haste Rating, 9000 Mastery Rating: 126891.2 DPS
  • 6000 Haste Rating, 8750 Mastery Rating: 126811.2 DPS
  • 6250 Haste Rating, 8500 Mastery Rating: 126716.5 DPS
  • 6500 Haste Rating, 8250 Mastery Rating: 126990.6 DPS
  • 6750 Haste Rating, 8000 Mastery Rating: 127103.4 DPS
  • 7000 Haste Rating, 7750 Mastery Rating: 127159.5 DPS
  • 7250 Haste Rating, 7500 Mastery Rating: 127198.1 DPS
  • 7500 Haste Rating, 7250 Mastery Rating: 127100.9 DPS
  • 7750 Haste Rating, 7000 Mastery Rating: 127620.5 DPS
  • 8000 Haste Rating, 6750 Mastery Rating: 127503.3 DPS
  • 8250 Haste Rating, 6500 Mastery Rating: 127386.0 DPS
  • 8500 Haste Rating, 6250 Mastery Rating: 127293.5 DPS
  • 8750 Haste Rating, 6000 Mastery Rating: 127269.5 DPS
  • 9000 Haste Rating, 5750 Mastery Rating: 127245.3 DPS
  • 9250 Haste Rating, 5500 Mastery Rating: 127233.2 DPS
  • 9500 Haste Rating, 5250 Mastery Rating: 127375.4 DPS
  • 9750 Haste Rating, 5000 Mastery Rating: 127175.5 DPS
  • 10000 Haste Rating, 4750 Mastery Rating: 127483.7 DPS
  • 10250 Haste Rating, 4500 Mastery Rating: 127265.7 DPS
  • 10500 Haste Rating, 4250 Mastery Rating: 127385.2 DPS
  • 10750 Haste Rating, 4000 Mastery Rating: 126826.1 DPS
  • 11000 Haste Rating, 3750 Mastery Rating: 126783.2 DPS
  • 11250 Haste Rating, 3500 Mastery Rating: 126588.3 DPS
  • 11500 Haste Rating, 3250 Mastery Rating: 126522.7 DPS
  • 11750 Haste Rating, 3000 Mastery Rating: 126383.0 DPS
  • 12000 Haste Rating, 2750 Mastery Rating: 126232.1 DPS
  • 12250 Haste Rating, 2500 Mastery Rating: 126212.3 DPS
  • 12500 Haste Rating, 2250 Mastery Rating: 126019.9 DPS
  • 12750 Haste Rating, 2000 Mastery Rating: 125925.1 DPS
As you can see, the best results seem to be when Haste Rating and Mastery Rating are properly balanced. These are still simulation results and Simulation Craft does a very good job at playing properly. Whether a real player can properly benefit from their increased casting speed and DoT ticking speed remains to be seen, whereas Mastery is a direct increase to damage done that is not affected by skill. This is why we advise Mastery before Haste, because we're unsure whether or not the Haste results are applicable to real life.

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 09:44 AM

#11
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One thing I forgot to say. The T14 Heroic profile in SimC is hit-capped. If you lower the Hit Rating value from 5100 to 2600 and add the 2500 you removed to the stat budget for Haste Rating and Mastery Rating, you obtain results similar to what I posted above, albeit with slightly higher DPS.

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 01:49 PM

#12
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Have you ever seen such parity in the stats? Or so many people claiming that their way of hit capping vs not hit capping is right and everyone else is wrong? It's so hard to keep these things straight without error. I feel like so many people come here for advice and giving them false advice is the worst thing we can do. I'm continuously pushing in the 90th or above percentile in every fight, and here I am trying to change things. Not sure why I don't take my own advice about not breaking what isn't broken, but I'll just keep modifying my profile and making changes until I'm happy. I know getting a new weapon will help me simulate better =( Stupid Elegon...

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 01:21 PM

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I'm a goblin so haste 4717 = 4249. Ignoring the whole hit debate for this question as I've already made my mind up on this for my personal playstyle, should I be following advice to get to 4249 haste then going with mastery? Or should I always follow what simcraft tells me? I'm assuming simcraft takes into account im a goblin for haste breakpoints? It still sims haste > mastery after 4249 for me. Basically is simcraft always right?! thanks

Edited by gabbergob, 08 November 2012 - 01:22 PM.

Posted 08 November 2012 - 02:30 PM

#14
Zagam
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Simcraft is never always right. It's a computer model meant to maximize your DPS using iterations to smooth spikes and valleys of damage. Simulation models are only as powerful as the person who programmed them. In terms of DPS models, they are very good, but they are not perfect. You must use common sense, judgment, and your own personal taste to perform to your best ability. Class knowledge and fight mechanics will always play a part and an Affliction Warlock who plays his class perfectly reforged into Crit will beat a mediocre Affliction Warlock who uses Drain Soul pre-execute and doesn't keep DoTs up but is reforged into all Haste and Mastery. I'm a Goblin as well, and 4250 rating puts me right at 10.00% Haste with my character pane reading 11.10% (they are multplicative). I've also achieved 5100 hit rating and still have 51.50% Mastery. Simcraft isn't going to model haste breakpoints for you. There is a spreadsheet for that. Simcraft can, however, tell you what is best for you in your specific gear, and it's showing that people with less than 490 ilvls should push Haste. It's becoming common knowledge in the Warlock community that Haste and Mastery are both beautiful and you want them both in equal doses. Hit your Haste threshold, hit cap if you want to or get close otherwise, and then push stats into Mastery.

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 05:39 PM

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thanks for the reply, thats really helped clear up a few bits for me

Posted 09 November 2012 - 04:00 PM

#16
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I'm so confused.

Posted 09 November 2012 - 04:54 PM

#17
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I'm so confused.


Life will do that to you. Something Warlock specific that is confusing you?

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Posted 10 November 2012 - 01:45 AM

#18
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After the 4717 soft haste cap...should I change the stat after weight to 0 or keep it the same? Also with the gems, I put in pure Int unless the socket bonus was good and it seems my dps went down..so I am at a loss.

Posted 10 November 2012 - 05:35 AM

#19
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Mastery > Int for gems, my friend. And set your reforger up like this... Hit AT LEAST 5100 Haste AT LEAST 4717 Mastery = 3 Haste = 2 Crit = 1 Hit = 0

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Posted 10 November 2012 - 11:59 AM

#20
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I also recommend gemming pure Intellect until you're at an item level over 490. Then start shoving gems into Mastery if the socket bonus is good. I apologize to all those who took heed to the previous guides I've written. I'll put some more work into this, but simcraft is just playing with my head at this point. If anyone with solid work in simcraft would like to make a couple of pointers, I'd be more than happy to hear them.


Then why did you post this earlier,,,,

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