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Looking for feedback on our Frost DK

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Good afternoon guys.

 

As the title says, I'd like to get some suggestions and or feedback on our Frost DK who's been raiding with us. He was a Blood DK back in MoP and now he's dps. Whenever we do logs and check them, I always see on the bottom of the list. I am not sure whether he's underperforming or whatnot, but I looked at his uptime and cooldowns and he seems to be looking fine (at least in my eyes).

 

However, I haven't played DK that much and I don't know much about the skills they use and so on. I'm not sure if this is about gear issue or just rotational issue so if someone can pinpoint tips and stuffs, I'd gladly appreciate it.

 

Here's our last night log on Butcher: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/vwzRpHPxWB7fNKca#type=damage-done&fight=4&source=25

 

His Armory: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/gorgonnash/Kulrath/advanced

 

I'm rather a concerned raider because we're still looking for dps to fill in for our Mythic roster. I'd like for him to get better and not get benched since I've been with him during SoO last expac. Thank you for reading this post and have a great day!

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Well, there are a number of things: The most easy thing is that he has a vers. gem... should always be multistrike. 

Secondly he's hanging on to "freezing fog" procs (howling blast costs no runes and does 20% more damage). He seems to be frost striking whenever he has the runic for it which is eating up a lot of "killing machine" procs and therefore lowering his oblit damage. I don't know if a single one of my logs has frost strike being my 2nd most damage done. He's not using obliterate nearly enough. In a fight that lasted 10 seconds less I had 15 more obliterates than him which is a ton of damage (And upon further inspection, a fight that lasts 30 seconds less I have 4 more oblits) He's also rocking defile (good) with Unholy Blight (Really awful). Not using Plague Leech as 2h frost is a pretty substantial dps loss.

 

Heres my logs for a butcher fight: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/dxP83JbF6htyrY79#fight=5&type=damage-done&source=9   (or just search "Foxes-Thrall" on warcraftlogs and browse through my fights)

 

Honestly there has to be so much wrong with his rotation that the best bet is have him get weakaura's and use Storm's 2h frost rotation, it was a huge help for me and will almost definitely increase his dps. Other than that, fixing talents/ gearing optimization will help.

 

On a few not exactly dps related notes: The antimagic shell glyph he has is fine but the one that absorbs all damage and prevents magic debuffs from being applied will help him a ton with increasing uptime on bosses like brakenspore or twin ogrons. Dark Sim Glyph and shifting pres are also basically useless. He might try glyphing "Outbreak" and using Plague Leech on cooldown... It's a good method to introduce yourself to the pains of PL while still maintaining diseases (and also allows him to burn runic on that thus decreasing the runic he has to spend on FS and misuse a KM proc while also giving him more runes to burn on oblits). Other than that glyphing for the free "raise ally" is a huge help as you progress into mythic has there are many times melee or tanks will be right on the edge of a healer's range and sometimes that healer is anything but a druid thus increasing the need for instant res's)

 

TL;DR: more oblits, less frost strikes. get storm's rotation weakauras. Fix talents and gear

Edited by FoxBoulder

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Thank you so much. I don't know if info was updated since I went Frost or if I just chose Unholy Blight for ease of keeping diseases up.Whichever the case; I took the advice you offered and I did notice an increase in my DPS. I also downloaded Storm's WA for 2H Frost ( http://www.icy-veins.com/forums/topic/8360-storms-2h-frost-rotation-helpers-weak-auras/). That helps a lot because it always tells me which is priority.

 

My thinking before was that Oblit was runes and FS was runic power so it didn't matter if I cast Oblit then burned my runic power on FS. I need to get a better grasp of the Killing Machine proc.

 

Now I just have to work in my Defile and Empower Rune Weapon. Still trying to figure out best time to use ERW and Army. I try to use army whenever hero is cast or our Raid Leader calls for dps pot to be used.

 

This is the first night that i've made the changes and we spent the whole night on Twin Ogron mythic. So next week I should see how much of a change is it when we clear heroic again.

Edited by Kulrath

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At this gear level, I'm pretty sure haste is a better stat to gem and enchant for as 2H frost than multistrike following latest buffs. Never use army in the middle of a fight. Cast it about 6-7 seconds before the pull. The damage they do is so little in WoD that it is not worth wasting runes on them. You can cast them before the pull so that the runes get regenerated at the time of the pull. You will want to use ERW when you are running short of resources (both runes and runic power). You can also get a great burst at the pull by using Outbreak + Pillar + 3x Obliterate followed by ERW and 3x Obliterate. 

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Everything drums said. I personally find multistrike to be better for me, but I'm 671 and have a lot of haste on my gear (in fact in my sims haste is back to below vers) but it'll vary greatly from person to person (I've gotten lucky on drops to be sure). As for KM and how to use it: Always use it on obilt even if you are runic capped. I personally break this rule if a lot of str procs are up and I'm just trying to jam in as many actions as I can (or during lust and KM is proccing so much its better to burn it and not waste the chances for more). I also break that rule when I've sat on KM for more than 2.5 seconds, and lastly I break that rule when I'm not playing well. It really depends but in general, oblit will do so much damage (even more so if you stack multistrike) that its always worth spending KM there.

 

My opener is:

-6seconds- army

-1 second pot (also pillar if doing butcher so its back up for knockbacks)

-0 outbreak

then into

oblitx3

Plague leech

Plague strike

Defile

frost strike away from 100 runic (unless km is up)

ERW

Oblitx1-2

Frost strike away from 100 runic again

Finish off oblits

Settle into normal rotation following the weak auras...

 

That also changes a ton based on KM procs but its a general idea of how to get the most out of all your cooldowns at the start (you'll probably burst for 80k in your gear)

 

Also a note about the weakauras:  One thing I do differently is if nothing is showing up to cast but I have any runic I burn it on frost strike so long as km isn't up (my reasoning is it allows more obilts and less chance of capping runic if I get a lucky run of KM procs). Other than that though if nothing is showing up its because its better to wait until your runes are no longer regenning to cast obilt (in hope that holding out longer allowed another km to proc).

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On Empower Rune Weapon:  That sort of depends on the fight length or if there is a specific objective/burn point that needs to happen during the fight.  This will vary a lot depending on the guild/group you are with, if you have a specific job/target in your role, and requires a bit of planning, and knowledge of when things will happen during the fight in your particular group.

 

For myself, I will try and make sure that it will be off CD for my 2nd pot, which means sometimes in my guild, I can use it early in the fight, but other times I need to just sit on it.  Mostly though, with the 5 min cd, it will not be used more that twice in a fight at best, which puts that decision down to:

 

Is there a lust/burn phase that happens in under 5 min of the fight?  Save it for that. (Likely where you would also use 2nd pot, slightly delayed cd's etc)

 

Fight longer than 5 min, but no specific burn objective?  I'll use at tail end of opener (Normally can get through opener without needing it) and then during execute phase (with 2nd pot)

 

Fight under 5 min with no specific burn objective?  I'll save it for execute phase.

 

I would be most interested in hearing how others use it.... to me it makes more sense to use this one lined up with pot/cd to be most effective.... and I hate it when I miss... it is pretty annoying to have a pot and cd rolling and run out of runic power/runes.... :)

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He might try glyphing "Outbreak" and using Plague Leech on cooldown... It's a good method to introduce yourself to the pains of PL while still maintaining diseases (and also allows him to burn runic on that thus decreasing the runic he has to spend on FS and misuse a KM proc while also giving him more runes to burn on oblits). Other than that glyphing for the free "raise ally" is a huge help as you progress into mythic has there are many times melee or tanks will be right on the edge of a healer's range and sometimes that healer is anything but a druid thus increasing the need for instant res's)

 

TL;DR: more oblits, less frost strikes. get storm's rotation weakauras. Fix talents and gear

Never ever ever Glyph outbreak, Use outbreak on CD or apply with plague strike and rime procs but do not glyph outbreak, its a huge dps loss because if you use plague leech on every CD you won't have it to use for when you dont have runes for Obliterate apart from the fact that you would rather use that 30 RP on a FS.

 

Basicly you should always obliterate when your rune bars are almost full even if you don't have a KM proc and you should FS when you have more then 75 runic power iirc.

 

You are also allowed to use KM on FS when Obliterate is on 3 sec CD or higher and you dont have plague leech off CD.

 

Looking at his logs:

Obliterate is at 47% crit so he is spamming it to much without a KM proc, it should be 50% plus. Im at 60-70% myself.

He should get a swing timer so he does not cast obliterate or FS just before a swing so he doesnt waste the KM proc because he doesnt have enough runes or he wastes it on a FS as KM procs come off melee hits.

 

His disease uptime is 99% so thats perfect.

 

As for glyphs:

-Get rid of outbreak and replace with Empowerment

 

Talents:

-Get purgatory, life saver

-If Blood Tap is to much hassle get Runic Corruption, Runic Empowerment is not really worth it.

 

Currently my opener is this rotation:

1. Army of the Dead 6s before pull

2. Prepot (1 sec before pull)

3. Outbreak

4. Pillar of Frost

5. Obliterate x3

9. Empower Rune Weapon

10. Obliterate x3

11. Follow Priority

Edited by VRDRF

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Never ever ever Glyph outbreak, Use outbreak on CD or apply with plague strike and rime procs but do not glyph outbreak, its a huge dps loss because if you use plague leech on every CD you won't have it to use for when you dont have runes for Obliterate apart from the fact that you would rather use that 30 RP on a FS.

 

 

Glyphed outbreak is a small dps loss only if compared to using plague leech on cooldown and reapplying diseases with a rime proc'd howling blast and a plague strike, while still maintaining 95%+ uptimes on both diseases.

 

If you aren't using plague leech on cooldown because you're waiting for outbreak, or if your disease uptimes drop to 80% or less then glyphed outbreak could definitely be a dps gain.

 

Almost any situation in which you can use plague leech optimally, meaning you'll gain 2 runes from it, will also be a situation in which you could not obliterate otherwise, and you can definitely make that happen every 25 seconds.

 

Basicly you should always obliterate when your rune bars are almost full even if you don't have a KM proc and you should FS when you have more then 75 runic power iirc.

 

It's easier to manage runic power if you start using frost strike at lower RP. Obliterate is priority if you have a KM proc, or if you have runes fully replenished. It's important to make sure you constantly have runes regenerating. Once you have runes regenerating, and if there isn't a KM proc then FS is next priority regardless of how high your RP is.

 

don't obliterate at 80+ RP unless you have a KM proc, or your runes are all completely regenerated.

 

using KM on a frost strike if Obliterate is going to be on cooldown for 3+ seconds is correct.

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Glyphed outbreak is a small dps loss only if compared to using plague leech on cooldown and reapplying diseases with a rime proc'd howling blast and a plague strike, while still maintaining 95%+ uptimes on both diseases.

 

If you aren't using plague leech on cooldown because you're waiting for outbreak, or if your disease uptimes drop to 80% or less then glyphed outbreak could definitely be a dps gain.

 

Almost any situation in which you can use plague leech optimally, meaning you'll gain 2 runes from it, will also be a situation in which you could not obliterate otherwise, and you can definitely make that happen every 25 seconds.

 

Maybe its just my personal expierence but the dps loss was quite allot for me. 

I had a serious amount of downtime when I had glyphed outbreak and would have gaps where I would be waiting for a swing while I could have thrown in a FS instead of having spend those 30 RP on outbreak.

 

It's easier to manage runic power if you start using frost strike at lower RP. Obliterate is priority if you have a KM proc, or if you have runes fully replenished. It's important to make sure you constantly have runes regenerating. Once you have runes regenerating, and if there isn't a KM proc then FS is next priority regardless of how high your RP is.

 

don't obliterate at 80+ RP unless you have a KM proc, or your runes are all completely regenerated.

 

using KM on a frost strike if Obliterate is going to be on cooldown for 3+ seconds is correct.

 

I usually throw in a FS just before a swing and I have at least 2 runes off CD, that way I dont even get near 80 RP smile.png

Edited by VRDRF

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My suggestion for glyphing outbreak wasn't a min/max suggestion, it was more along the lines of a suggestion based on how it allows a nice intro to playing 2h frost. Just like blood tap managed perfectly can be better than runic empowerment but for the most part you're safe using the passive effects of RE. It might not be the absolute best but it smooths out the rotation and lowers the skill cap to a place where you can achieve competitive dps while still learning the class's in's and outs. The reason we don't use Runic Corruption VRDRF is that the way the runes regen, it promotes all our runes coming up at once which means we have to obilt more quickly to keep them recharging. RE gives you that 1 extra rune to hit that obilt right as KM procs and is much better than RC, though as previously said, not as good as a well managed blood tap. Maybe your logs would prove me wrong though? This is mostly off personal experience so I'd love to see your logs as well, not just hear about them :P 

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There is nothing wrong in getting in more obliterates as 2h frost. If you are going with a pooling playstyle to have runes ready for obliterate when KM procs, RC is a better choice than RE since RE works only on fully depleted runes.

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I had a lot to say in response but at the risk of seeming like I'm taking shots, here are my logs for butcher (pre haste buff, using RE) compared to Drum's (post haste buff, using Blood Tap)

 

Drums: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/6yPfHktXQhNBWTzn#fight=5&type=damage-done&source=7

Mine: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/dxP83JbF6htyrY79#fight=5&type=damage-done&source=9

 

15 more obilts with RE and a lot less haste. (To be fair I also used PL 3 more times which def helps to up those obilts)

 

I also want to bring this back on topic. We are here to help a dk get better at his class. While all the min/max info that has been posted here is awesome, it has all already been said and honestly, it doesn't help someone who is still working to get the basics down (No offense Kulrath biggrin.png). Yes, glyphing outbreak is a mathematical loss but it's not the point of this thread. If the logs we were supposed to be critiquing were in the 95% percentile then getting into the bones (pun intended) of our class would absolutely be appropriate, however, that is not the case and is not the purpose of this thread. Lets try to get it back to personal experience with the class and how to handle the certain basic concepts that no other class has to deal with on such a large level. That all being said, until we get Kulrath's updated logs we won't be able to generate much more help, lets just try to keep the theorycrafting and min/max talk to their threads respectively and either link the info so Kulrath can read the entire posts which have a lot more info than the snippets we have reposted here or trust that he can find it himself and focus on things that are specific to his logs here.

Edited by FoxBoulder
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I currently do not have any real logs to write home about, I'm still in the process of getting things perfected so to speak tongue.png

 

Anyway, the reason I took RC above RE is because of this part of text I copy pasted from Skullflowers amazing guide over @ sonofalich

 

 

Runic Empowerment

RE has a 1.5% chance per Runic Power spent to activate a random fully-deplted rune. This talent requires us to exhaust all our runes to get any benefit back from it. BT/RC, however, lets us hang on to our current runes. This is because RE only works on fully depleted runes (i.e. both sets of a specific rune have to be recharging in order for RE to proc it). This works against the pooling playstyles of 2h Frost, and overall isn't as efficient a talent choice over the other two.
 
Runic Corruption
RC has a 1.5% chance per Runic Power spent to increase your rune regeneration rate by 100% for 3 seconds. If you are overcapping Blood Charges often or macroing it into your abilities, RC will be the correct talent to use. RC is consistent, but doesn’t have the AoE damage potential of BT. Single target simulated results show RC to be more or less in line with BT.

 

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Bmw_9ZvCBNcD79APeHiZ3Nj-M1z1N2v28fqRlKmigO8/preview?sle=true#

 

But I agree, lets see if this helps the guy and see what his next log shows :D

Edited by VRDRF

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Fox: No offense taken. I welcome all of the feedback.

 

I did find PL difficult to use while glyphed for Outbreak. I wasn't able to use Outbreak at pull because I had no runic power yet. I think I might try removing that glyph and using Outbreak at start and again when PL is off CD, so that I use PL for Oblit, then reapply diseases with Outbreak.

 

As for Haste vs Multistrike, all of the information I can find says Haste is my least important stat next to Crit for both 2H and dual wield.

(I've also been interested in a dual wield build, but I'm waiting on the 2nd weapon I have 1 heroic warforged from Butcher.)

 

I plan on writing down both VRDRF and Fox's openers and trying them out for myself. I'll let you know how it goes.

Edited by Kulrath

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According to current sims and my own sims its currently this:

Unholy: Strength >  Multistrike > Mastery >= Haste > Critical Strike > Versatility

DWF: Strength > Mastery > Haste >= Multistrike > Versatility > Critical Strike

2H Frost: Strength > Haste > Multistrike > Versatility > Mastery >= Critical Strike

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Heres my logs for a butcher fight: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/dxP83JbF6htyrY79#fight=5&type=damage-done&source=9   (or just search "Foxes-Thrall" on warcraftlogs and browse through my fights)

 

TL;DR: more oblits, less frost strikes. get storm's rotation weakauras. Fix talents and gear

 

Hey Fox, I believe you are overdoing your oblits.

 

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/HtbBQpgkahnc6fJW#type=damage-done&fight=5&source=18

 

Here is my log with very similar ilvl to you and me doing 2.4k more dps, and FS coming second on my damage.

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Gravix, The crit% on your FS is actually higher then your Obliterate, meaning you are wasting a few KM procs on what I'm guessing are badly timed FS's just before a swing smile.png

 

Obliterate crit should be above 50%, 60% preferably vs 40% for FS.

Edited by VRDRF

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That's possible, but I have a net 2.4k dps increase, which at the end of the day is what should count, no?

 

Edit: I admit I am not using a swing timer and I will probably add that tonight, but often times I'm getting the KM proc while there's still at least 2-3 seconds before my next Obliterate so I just FS instead.

Edited by gravix

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That's possible, but I have a net 2.4k dps increase, which at the end of the day is what should count, no?

 

Edit: I admit I am not using a swing timer and I will probably add that tonight, but often times I'm getting the KM proc while there's still at least 2-3 seconds before my next Obliterate so I just FS instead.

Oh yes ofc, just giving a tip that might increase it even more biggrin.png

 

You could reduce those moments by using plague leech or trying to save up on at least 2 different runes (meaning 1 frost/undeath and 1 unholy/undeath) (correct me if I'm wrong tongue.png)

 

Swing Timer deff helps reduce those "O frak!" moments when you just used FS on a KM by accident tongue.png

Edited by VRDRF

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Personally I don't like 'saving up' runes or abilities so I'd always go with plague leech whenever it is available :)

 

I've used the swing timer in the past and too often found myself just looking at it and hesitating if I should cast that FS now or wait for the next swing... I believe I ended up with a "oh fuck it" attitude and just nuked with my available FS.

 

I'll give that another try and see how it goes, but I have a personal mental block towards using such timers!

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Here is our latest Butcher kill. I got one upgrade from follower missions since our last kill. But most of the change in my dps is purely rotation, thanks to all of you.

 

Old Butcher:

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/vwzRpHPxWB7fNKca#type=damage-done&fight=4&source=25

 

Newest Butcher:

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/z98XAj2awQvgBDGr#fight=5&type=damage-done&source=15

Edited by Kulrath

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Apart from the opening it looks good! well done! laugh.png

Edited by VRDRF
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Yeah, it's not perfect, I have to work on it, but it's a nice improvement. I'll take another look at the advice here and see if I can fix the opening. I found that the Outbreak glyph made it hard for me to open with outbreak, so I opted for the raise ally glyph instead. Honestly, i'm not even familiar enough with warcraft logs to know how you could see my opening, but I'll work on  it nonetheless.

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Yeah I had the same problem with outbreak, just made the whole rotation feel cluncky and like a huge dps loss.

On paper its only 600dps or something but thats in the most ideal situation.

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I use Army 4 seconds before pull instead of the normally recommended 6 seconds. Then I usually have enough RP to still open with outbreak even with the glyph. technically not glyphing outbreaking is a little bit more dps gain then glyphing it, but I find it much easier to keep diseases up 95%+ and use plague leech on cooldown when I glyph outbreak.

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