Damien

Demon Hunter: Fire Multishot with Yang's Recurve

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This thread is for comments about our Demon Hunter Fire Multishot Build with Yang's Recurve.

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Using Convention Of Elements seems as a passive damage boost isn't that easy... if you miss the fire cycle (no mobs in range, fleeing, moving, ...) which is one among 6 available to the DH class... you waste a lot of DPS. And if you decide to use the awesome Taeguk you already have one time/cycle to keep up.

 

Isn't any other decent dps upgrade to be used in the cube? I currently cubed a Grandeur ring so I can wear 5/6 UE pieces + 1 Magefist (which sports a decent +20% flat fire damage).

 

I've got Calamity + Cindercoat already. Any better idea for the 3d cube slot? 

 

 

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one alternative that i have been using for the jewelry kannais slot is the obsidian ring of the zodiac, with the single skill, being companion, on cooldown, every proc will be towards that one skill, and allows 100% uptime

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Can someone explain to me why you would want the set bonus from Focus/Restraint and not a couple of well rolled rings with max disc? Rings can roll with a max of +10 discipline (I think), so with 2 that would be another 300% damage to multishot, right?

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Can someone explain to me why you would want the set bonus from Focus/Restraint and not a couple of well rolled rings with max disc? Rings can roll with a max of +10 discipline (I think), so with 2 that would be another 300% damage to multishot, right?

 

That's a great question that comes up every now and then :) The nature of stacking buffs in Diablo heavily favors multiplicative sources of damage like Focus and Restraint. Discipline is additive in nature, much like Elemental damage; in reality, Disc rolls on all possible pieces (weapon, cloak, quiver) will result in about 80 disc, and disc rings would come out as a damage increase of only about 11%. In comparison, Focus and Restraint multiply your damage by 125% - crazy good :)

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This build just got me to rank 225 on the non season leaderboard in europe (rift 60 @ 12:32).

Thanks alot smile.png

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I'm curious as to why Ballistics was chosen over Steady Aim.  It seems like +20% to all damage would be better than doubling just the 3 rockets (especially if you are serious about Hunter's Wrath making Evasive Fire a damage dealer).  Is that just to make this build more effective vs. single targets?  Also, do we know if the rockets are affected by +multishot%?

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I'm curious as to why Ballistics was chosen over Steady Aim.  It seems like +20% to all damage would be better than doubling just the 3 rockets (especially if you are serious about Hunter's Wrath making Evasive Fire a damage dealer).  Is that just to make this build more effective vs. single targets?  Also, do we know if the rockets are affected by +multishot%?

Just to answer my own question:  according to d3planner.com, +multishot% IS included in rocket damage.

 

However, at least according to that site's calculations, Steady Aim is a superior choice to Ballistics.  Maybe this doesn't work quite as well in a practical sense when all three rockets are targeting the same creature, or other specific situations, but at least according to that site's crunching +20% to all damage is better than doubling only the rocket damage.  Just wondering what could make Ballistics better.

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Is iceblink a viable option inplace of bane of the stricken? Will iceblink solve the cc issue and proc cull the weak and bane of the trapped? I feel that option is much safer and applied more easily than caltrops.

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Just to answer my own question:  according to d3planner.com, +multishot% IS included in rocket damage.

 

However, at least according to that site's calculations, Steady Aim is a superior choice to Ballistics.  Maybe this doesn't work quite as well in a practical sense when all three rockets are targeting the same creature, or other specific situations, but at least according to that site's crunching +20% to all damage is better than doubling only the rocket damage.  Just wondering what could make Ballistics better.

 

 

Does it take into account any other sources of additive damage on gear? Steady Aim is an additive increase that falls into the same category as regular buffs, debuffs and skill bonuses (further expanded on here: http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/14058607023). It will likely come out as a significantly smaller damage increase with proper gear rolls in mind - but still a good one, and I take it myself on my DH with a good Hellfire.

 

Is iceblink a viable option inplace of bane of the stricken? Will iceblink solve the cc issue and proc cull the weak and bane of the trapped? I feel that option is much safer and applied more easily than caltrops.

 

It will make CC easier, but it will lower your damage (especially vs Rift Guardians) significantly. Ultimately you will trade a fast RG kill for some safety, which I would advise against - a lot of the lethal situations come from charging monsters, projectiles and elite affixes that are unaffected by Iceblink.

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Convention of Elements

 

High Burst 25% of the time.

Can be useless at times.

Means you cannot use Prides Fall as your helm or Mage Fist as your gloves as it replaces Ring of Grandeur.

 

I believe Prides Fall + Cindercoat in cube is better (100% hatred upkeep with Mark of Death Mortal Enemy) as it  gives you more damage total over time as you do not need to generate hatred to keep firing multishot and only use it to refresh Bastion of Will set.

 

Obsidian Ring of the Zodiac

 

Allows decent CD regen of skills such as [Wolf Companion or Vengence Seethe].

 

I do not think its worth using unless you can get Vengence CD down to 45 seconds with high CDR. The problem with this is that even if you have 55% CDR and use Leorics (which means no Coat of Cinders which already hurts yourself) with a diamond in helm, you still have to mix Evasive Fire + Multishot in order to cool down Vengence enough to keep it up 100% of the time. And that means lost damage. 

 

Lost damage from Cindercoat. Lost damage from mixing attack frames to activate CDR. Gained damage from Homing Rockets/Side Guns, gained damage from more hatred. Seethe ultimately loses in damage however.

 

Focus and Restraint vs Max Hatred Rings

 

F+R multiplies your damage. The 15x20 discipline gain from rings is additive. Since you already have discipline on Weapon/Quiver/Chest, your only adding 300% more damage from rings  on top of your 1200% bonus from the other gear. Thats 1500% total. But F+R will more than double your damage. That's 1200x2 = 2400% vs 1500%.

 

Ballistics vs Steady Aim

 

Steady Aim gives you 20% that's additive. Which is why Cull the Weak is preferred (its multiplicative!). So ballistics already deals much more damge because your rockets will gain the bonuses of your multishot damage dealing MORE damage than your actual multishots thanks to the 2x bonus from the passive. With decent gear it will be critting for a billion+ just off your rockets.

 

This is also why its important to pick up Hellfire Amulet so you can get all the right passives.

 

IceBlink

 

And since Zei and Trapped work together + your pants have slow on them + your team slows things, ice blink is completely unnecessary.

 

Zei = multiplicative.

Trapped = multiplicative.

Stricken = multiplicative.

 

Also all 3 of these provide MORE damage than what Iceblink can give you unless you have problems CCing mobs. If you need CC, then consider iceblink trading off damage.

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Prides Fall + Grandeur + Witching Hour

 

vs

 

Convention of Elements + Hunters Wrath + Accursed Visage

 

At some point once you've gotten best in slot items, you'll probably be wondering which variation is better. They are very similar of course but nuances aside, it comes down to preference.

 

Resource Reduction and Infinite Multishot

 

With Prides Fall and Cindercoat, you need only to fire Evasive Shot once every 6 multishots or F+R cycle. This allows you to deal tons of sustained damage while simplfying the amount of times you need to mix your evasive shot in. In parties, you practically are firing all the time with zero downtime. You could even put in Hunter Wrath to generate maximum animation frame speed for evasive shot while firing multishot to shave off tenths of a second while making it even easier to generate faster hatred if you deplete. With Mark of Death mortal enemy, you can unleash infinite times on any major target.

 

Maximum Burst

 

If you want the maximum burst damage, you want Convention of Elements to triple your damage over those 4 seconds. This however means you cannot use Prides Fall (loss of ring slot). This also means you'll burn more hatred so Hunters Wrath is used to let Evasive fire regen your hatred quickly as a compromise. 

 

Ultimately whichever style you pick, both have their place in parties.

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Resource Reduction and Infinite Multishot

 

With Prides Fall and Cindercoat, you need only to fire Evasive Shot once every 6 multishots or F+R cycle. This allows you to deal tons of sustained damage while simplfying the amount of times you need to mix your evasive shot in. In parties, you practically are firing all the time with zero downtime. You could even put in Hunter Wrath to generate maximum animation frame speed for evasive shot while firing multishot to shave off tenths of a second while making it even easier to generate faster hatred if you deplete. With Mark of Death mortal enemy, you can unleash infinite times on any major target.

 

Thanks for sharing that, it's a variation I hadn't considered. I can see it working mostly in groups, as Pride's Fall is much harder to maintain solo, but it's a really cool twist. Props!

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Some more data on Prides Fall Infinite vs Standard COE

 

While soloing, Prides Fall deals about 25% less average DPS over the entire run. So for example, say you average 2bn damage per second with Prides Fall, with CoE, you'll deal 2.5bn, a 25% increase. 

 

In groups at higher rifts, this gap is smaller as the need to sustain damage on large packs over time is greater. Typically I am seeing the gap close to 10%.

 

TLDR: Prides Fall is an alternative build style for solo and group though it still deals less damage output overall per second. Its pros are easy hatred control and its superior in solo rift farming where maintaining hatred while destroying trash and packs quickly is a huge problem when using the standard Accursed/CoE/Hunters Wrath combo. So get both!

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using this build now, amazing dmg but hard to survive when my hp is low since there is lil to none regen or life on hit. hard to avoid those winged assasins when u cant see them tho

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Can someone explain to me why you would want the set bonus from Focus/Restraint and not a couple of well rolled rings with max disc? Rings can roll with a max of +10 discipline (I think), so with 2 that would be another 300% damage to multishot, right?

 

That's a great question that comes up every now and then smile.png The nature of stacking buffs in Diablo heavily favors multiplicative sources of damage like Focus and Restraint. Discipline is additive in nature, much like Elemental damage; in reality, Disc rolls on all possible pieces (weapon, cloak, quiver) will result in about 80 disc, and disc rings would come out as a damage increase of only about 11%. In comparison, Focus and Restraint multiply your damage by 125% - crazy good smile.png

 

I'm still trying to understand where you're coming from here.

I agree with the former poster; per the set bonus - each individual point of disc is +15% in damage. So the increase, additive or not will still be greater than the focus/restraint set.

Is there a better way someone can explain the math on this?

Thanks

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Why is the prioritization of RCR and AD different on hands and shoulders? It seems these should rank the same on gear that can roll both, assuming the stat is equally valuable? Or would you roll one on one and the other on the other?

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Why is the prioritization of RCR and AD different on hands and shoulders? It seems these should rank the same on gear that can roll both, assuming the stat is equally valuable? Or would you roll one on one and the other on the other?

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Can someone explain to me why you would want the set bonus from Focus/Restraint and not a couple of well rolled rings with max disc? Rings can roll with a max of +10 discipline (I think), so with 2 that would be another 300% damage to multishot, right?

 

That's a great question that comes up every now and then smile.png The nature of stacking buffs in Diablo heavily favors multiplicative sources of damage like Focus and Restraint. Discipline is additive in nature, much like Elemental damage; in reality, Disc rolls on all possible pieces (weapon, cloak, quiver) will result in about 80 disc, and disc rings would come out as a damage increase of only about 11%. In comparison, Focus and Restraint multiply your damage by 125% - crazy good smile.png

 

I'm still trying to understand where you're coming from here.

I agree with the former poster; per the set bonus - each individual point of disc is +15% in damage. So the increase, additive or not will still be greater than the focus/restraint set.

Is there a better way someone can explain the math on this?

Thanks

 

So I'll give you a detailed explanation, the set bonus of Unhallow Essence gives you 15% bonus damage to your Multishot and Generator for every point of unused Discipline you have.  If you have +20 max discipline from 2 rings that would be 300% bonus damage to your multishot on top of whatever your current discipline is at.  The math ends up with your previous discipline bonus damage + 300%, if you stack discipline from rings.  However, if you stack Restraint ® and Focus (F) you multiple your damage by their damage modifiers, which is 1.5x for resource generation and 1.5x for resource spent.  When bonus the R and F modifiers are triggered they multiply up to 2.25 multiplier to your damage.  So instead of adding 300% bonus damage to your existing damage gained from discipline you multiple it by 2.25 and effectively double that damage.

 

If that still didn't make sense then read on I'll do the math for you.  The amount of discipline you can get is 15 from preparation - focus mind, 12 for chest armor, 12 for bow, and 12 for quiver.  This is 51 on top of your base 30 for a total of 81 discipline.  This 81 discipline will result in 1215% bonus damage to your primary generators and multishot.  If you add 20 discipline from rings instead of F and R you'll have 1515% bonus damage to your primary generator and multishot.  With F and R you'll get 2733.75% bonus damage when both modifiers are procced.  The net result is about 1200% more damage then if you stacked 20 more discipline.

 

TLDR; Focus and Restraint is better then getting 20 more discipline because of math.

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Great build but why you use Vault:Tumble and not Vault: Trail Of Cinders?

Cubed Cindercoat, gives flat 30% reduction on every vault, and tuble gives 50% for every second vault (so it is 25% reduction). On top of that, it gives no dmg.

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Great build but why you use Vault:Tumble and not Vault: Trail Of Cinders?

Cubed Cindercoat, gives flat 30% reduction on every vault, and tuble gives 50% for every second vault (so it is 25% reduction). On top of that, it gives no dmg.

 

Because the Discipline reduction of Tumble results in a lot more damage from the 6 piece set bonus.

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So I love the damage from this build, but I can't push GR levels because I keep dying. Any advice for increased toughness or maybe play style recommendations? I drop caltrops as much as I can but getting into a mob is dicey so I have to stay back and it kills my time. GR47 is the highest I've completed. With the right levels I could probably get a bit further but I'd like to hit 60 and I don't see it happening with this setup. Any advice? Thanks!

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The explanation of this build is excelent. Would like to try out magefist and prides fall switching CoE for RoRG

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Great build but why you use Vault:Tumble and not Vault: Trail Of Cinders?

Cubed Cindercoat, gives flat 30% reduction on every vault, and tuble gives 50% for every second vault (so it is 25% reduction). On top of that, it gives no dmg.

 

Because the Discipline reduction of Tumble results in a lot more damage from the 6 piece set bonus.

 

 How does that work? You have to vault 2 times to get the savings from tumble.  So it's 8 disc the first time and 4 the second for a total of 12.  Trail of cinders gets reduced to 5.6 from cindercoat, so even if you round up it's still 6 per, and your first tumble costs less this way so you deal more dmg between vault #1 and vault #2 with the 6 pc and the same after 2 vaults. And the tumble causes extra dmg on top of that.

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