Damien

Crusader Thorns with Invoker Set

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This thread is for comments about our Crusader Endgame Thorns build with the Invoker set.

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In the skill overview it says 'consecration - frozen groud' (which is not even possible) and in the description it says you use 'consecration - bed of nails'. Took me a good few minutes to figure out what was going on. Quick fix might be a smart idea :)

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I just set up this build, and this is currently my strongest build yet.  I am able to solo Grift 64, which was up 6 from my previous best (HOTA Barbarian).  I still need a few more Ancient pieces (currently opting for non-Ancient due to more desirable rolls), but this build is very nice.  I should mention that I play on PS4.

 

I was wondering if anybody could chime in on the gems for this build?  Currently, I have the following:

Aquila Cuirass:  Ruby(3)

Pig Sticker:  Topaz

Invoker Pants:  Ruby, Amethyst

Traveler's Pledge:  Boyarski's Chip

Justice Lantern:  Bane of the Trapped

Compass Rose:  Bane of the Stricken

 

 

In particular, are the pants.  I have tried Ruby(2), Diamond(2), Amethyst(2), Ruby/Amethyst.  My observations seem to be:
Base Thorns:  ~272k

Ruby(2):  Lowest sheet armor (190M), lowest sheet recovery (16M)

Amethyst(2):  Mid-grade sheet armor (196M), Mid-grade recovery (16.6M), Highest sheet Thorns (275.5k)

Diamond(2):  Highest sheet armor (206M), Highest recovery (17.7M)

Ruby/Amethyst:  Obviously a mix.  Sheet armor (194M), Recovery (16.2M), Slight increase in sheet Thorns (274k)

 

I know that sheet numbers can/do lie and don't tell the whole story, but that's about all I have to go on.  I tested each combo in a lvl 60 Grift.  My observations seem to be that 2 Ruby's or 2 Amethyst's seem to proc about the same damage.  I see hits around 20B +/- 2B Dmg.  Diamond seems to be the worst, as I cannot recall many hits over 15B.  I definitely notice that Diamond(2) is the strongest defense though, as my health meter rarely dropped below 80%.  With the Ruby(2) or Amethyst(2), it dropped lower, but I can only recall 1 time it dropped below ~40% (that was with Ruby's).

 

Am I reading any of this right?  I am trying to optimize my gems, but I am genuinely confused as to which helps Thorns damage the most.  According to the Heart of Iron, Thorns is increased by 300% of Vitality (~9500).  According to the 2.3 patch notes:

  • Thorns damage is now increased by 100% of your primary stat damage bonus

 

My Strength is ~12.5k.  I guess my question is which helps more?  Is the 100% increase by the patch meaning that Thorns damage is increased by 12.5k?  Adding two Ruby's would add another 320?  Whereas adding two Amethysts would add 960 (320 * 300%)?

 

I know this is long, and thank you for reading.

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I know this is long, and thank you for reading.

 

No problem, in short - Vitality gems will never compete with Strength gems for added damage. Vitality assists damage provided by Strength and gear Thorns rolls, it cannot serve as a replacement. All in all, full rubies for best damage, full diamonds for best toughness. A split for a little of both.

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I know this is long, and thank you for reading.

 

No problem, in short - Vitality gems will never compete with Strength gems for added damage. Vitality assists damage provided by Strength and gear Thorns rolls, it cannot serve as a replacement. All in all, full rubies for best damage, full diamonds for best toughness. A split for a little of both.

 

 

So there is no point in using Amethysts at all?  I still don't understand the full effect of Strength on Thorns.

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So there is no point in using Amethysts at all?  I still don't understand the full effect of Strength on Thorns.

 

 

There is no point in slotting Amethysts if optimal damage is what you're after, yes. While it doesn't reflect in your sheet Thorns value, every point of Strength is a direct multiplier to your Thorns damage.

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Hey Deadset,

 

A couple of questions for this build of yours...

 

1. I noticed, that you dont use Bombardment as an active skill in your build. This will not give the Bombardment from the belt the Barrels of Spikes run - and thus not do much damage. I have taken Steed Charge off my build to make room for Bombardment, which also adds for a second burst of damage for elites/Guardians after popping Iron Skin. 

 

2. I'm playing Hardcore, so Indestructible is ofcourse a must for me, but I'm not sure, what will benefit me more for the 4th slot. Finery or Hold Your Ground. More offense or more defense. 

 

My build is not yet complete, as I have not found a Blood Brother yet, so I'm using The Mortal Drama in the cube instead to get double the amount of impact from Bombardment. Timed right that will give me 20 Barrels of Spikes. 10 from the active skill and 10 from the belt with quite awesome damage, if I may say. At least for my current build. More on that in the end...

 

I still lack 5 pieces compared to your build. All 3 jewelry pieces as well as weapon and shield. For weapon I'm using The Burning Axe of Sankis. Simply cause it's an Ancient one I have and gives some form of survivability from the chance of "fighting through the pain" and Coven's Criterion (45-60% less damage for blocked attacks) for shield as I found that as my best bet until I get the Akarat's Awakening. As for jewelry I'm just doing as much damage as I can until I get the right ones. Currently rolling with a Stone of Jordan and random Ancients.

 

Obviously playing Hardcore as mentioned does require me to make some sacrifice in the build. Dying is not really an option. I know this may not make a lot of sense as to dropping Steed Charge for Bombardment, but I just feel the extra damage gained from the run alone is worth it. :)

 

Currently I'm at Grift 49 (completed in 8 minutes) and working on it. How high would you think this build could go in Hardcore without too much hassle? 

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Hey Deadset,

 

A couple of questions for this build of yours...

 

...

 

Heya!

 

1. Indeed, Bombardment was not taken because there isn't a particular focus on its damage in this build (no Mortal Drama, no skill damage rolls, no Lord Commander passive...) It is only taken as means of Damage Reduction via Belt of the Trove. Lacking Steed Charge makes you less flexible when pushing, I feel that mobility is an important factor in GRs.

 

2. I would stick to Finery.

 

Without much hassle and good gear/paragons I would say this build will easily break GR75. When perfected and in full control of the playstyle, it'll pass 80.

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Have you ever considered Hack for this build in place of Pig Sticker? Or running Spiked Barding instead of Endurance for Steed Charge?

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Have you ever considered Hack for this build in place of Pig Sticker? Or running Spiked Barding instead of Endurance for Steed Charge?

 

Hack's unique property regrettably only applies to a single target, whereas the Sticker provides universally good stats. That being said, you can still use Hack in the 70s range of GRs.

 

Spiked Barding is an option for a little more damage, but will not make an impact in high GRs. I take Endurance to more efficiently seek out elites. You can use it in Torment farming though.

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Started my crusader this past weekend with an eye toward this build and to get the seasonal rewards. I haven't played D3 in a while so I solo'd to lvl70 without rushing and just started running normal rifts last night (so not much in the way of gear yet). I have admit I am pleasantly surprised!

 

Now that I have a few Grift stones I want to do some group runs with some (better equipped) friends and start getting some of the suggested gear.

 

Thanks Deadset for posting this build and info.

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Hello Deadset,

 

I really like your build and the guide attached to it. It's clear, simple and creates a really enjoyable experience as far as the gameplay goes.

 

As you have already explained doubts concerning Hack I've few more question

 

1) Vo'toyias Spiker and Provoke - damage amplification from these two seems to be really effective; have you considered running it instead of Akarat's Awakening and (let's say) Laws of Justice?

 

2) As I looked at the Crusader ladder recently I quickly realised that almost every Crusader utilizes a build putting heavy weight on Bombardment and LoN set. (as it happens you're also the author of that one ;-) )  Can Punish/Thorns compete with that?

 

3) A bit off topic - I really like the idea of Phalanx bodyguards. With the addition of so many items synergizing with the Phalanx (like Kassar's Helmet) would it be possible to make it a viable thing? 

 

Cheers!

 

 

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Have you ever considered Hack for this build in place of Pig Sticker? Or running Spiked Barding instead of Endurance for Steed Charge?

 

Hack's unique property regrettably only applies to a single target, whereas the Sticker provides universally good stats. That being said, you can still use Hack in the 70s range of GRs.

 

Spiked Barding is an option for a little more damage, but will not make an impact in high GRs. I take Endurance to more efficiently seek out elites. You can use it in Torment farming though.

 

Thanks for the insight, Very helpful!

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i want to ask about the weapon , i was wondering if it wont be better the the HACK ,  which gives 100% thorn dmg on every attack ?

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i want to ask about the weapon , i was wondering if it wont be better the the HACK ,  which gives 100% thorn dmg on every attack ?

 

Cmon mate, just read the posts above yours...

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Okay; 64 GR so far with relatively little time invested - doing pretty good; with Hack and Provoke shield though

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Started my crusader this past weekend with an eye toward this build and to get the seasonal rewards. I haven't played D3 in a while so I solo'd to lvl70 without rushing and just started running normal rifts last night (so not much in the way of gear yet). I have admit I am pleasantly surprised!

 

Now that I have a few Grift stones I want to do some group runs with some (better equipped) friends and start getting some of the suggested gear.

 

Thanks Deadset for posting this build and info.

Still running this build and having fun with it. Dropped a Flawless Royal Topaz into my Swiftmount and ran T9, GR37 and finished with ease last night. I made a hellfire amulet just to see what I would get and it not only has a socket, but gives me the fervor passive. So that opens up a passive slot for something else (except Heavenly Strength). Currently using Vigilant for the 20% non phyiscal dam reduction. Any suggestions for passives to run with my current build?

 

Starting to see a few ancient pieces drop but nothing I really wanna use....

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Any suggestions for passives to run with my current build?

 

Outside of the ones recommended in the guide, I would recommend Indestructible. If you feel like you're not taking enough damage to make a cheat death passive worth it, you can play around with Vigilant (as you already are), Long Arm of the Law (double the law duration - very effective toughness increase) and Holy Cause (minor increase to damage) to see which one you prefer.

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Started my crusader this past weekend with an eye toward this build and to get the seasonal rewards. I haven't played D3 in a while so I solo'd to lvl70 without rushing and just started running normal rifts last night (so not much in the way of gear yet). I have admit I am pleasantly surprised!

 

Still running this build and having fun with it. Dropped a Flawless Royal Topaz into my Swiftmount and ran T9, GR37 and finished with ease last night. I made a hellfire amulet just to see what I would get and it not only has a socket, but gives me the fervor passive. So that opens up a passive slot for something else (except Heavenly Strength). Currently using Vigilant for the 20% non phyiscal dam reduction. Any suggestions for passives to run with my current build?

I'm up to GR 47 with this build. Anything over that and I start dying a lot. Cannot seem to get an Akarat's Awakening to drop (sigh). I tried Indestructible on higher GR's (over 47) and even tho it saves me, I still tend to die before it resets. I put on belt of the trove and aquila curiass last night and that seems to help reduce damage a bit more. Can't seem to find a blood brother or convention of elements either....

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I'm up to GR 47 with this build. Anything over that and I start dying a lot. Cannot seem to get an Akarat's Awakening to drop (sigh). I tried Indestructible on higher GR's (over 47) and even tho it saves me, I still tend to die before it resets. I put on belt of the trove and aquila curiass last night and that seems to help reduce damage a bit more. Can't seem to find a blood brother or convention of elements either....

 

 

Keep at it! :) Belt of the Trove and Aquila will help a lot with Toughness. I can check your gear and give advice if you'd like, just post a link to your bnet character.

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I only played one game after adding Belt of the Trove and Aquila night before last. Played for a solid 4 hrs last night on T10. Ran normal rifts and GR's (up to 49 now!) farming for gear. On the next to last run (normal rift), CoE (ancient) and Akarat's Awakening both dropped. Check me out. Crusader

 

Only made one run after getting Akarat's Awakening (GR49). At first I wasn't real impressed, but I started to notice those cool down counters dropping much faster (esp. in big fights). I will probably really appreciate it the more I play.

 

I actually have the endless walk set, but I'm having a hard time turning loose of my hellfire amulet with the fervor passive. I had not tweaked the HF amulet until last night and got a really nice 5.7k thorns added to it. I'm not particularly hung up on the Occulus Ring, but I do step into that ring every chance I get.

 

I'm running long arm of the law right now and it really seems to work with my play style. I plan to try out indestructible and vigilant with this gear and as I run higher GR's to see how they work.

 

Overall it's still a great build and I feel like I'm progressing, just at a slower rate. 

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Great build, feels old school hack & slash.

 

Slightly nitpick questions about Paragon points:

As there is nothing that uses Wrath, should gold find come before RCR?

Also, Strength is listed as the 2nd core stat. Given that there is no cap of strength, Should I ever upgrade vitality, or just dump it all into strength forever?

 

Can't find the dang shield or blood brother, but I've hit GR55, and think I can go higher.

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Nice build. Hoping it might be a good build to push GR solo. For doing easy content, other builds with ranged AoE that can get overpowered at TX seems simpler/faster.

 

Managed to get all the items in no time using blood shards, smithing, cube upgrade from rare and cube transform set piece to other piece, in addition to jewelry I had laying around, though sadly with dex boost instead of strength. All I'm missing from the optimal pieces suggested is the pig sticker that I haven't found. But had a Hack laying around which works nicely at GR levels I'm at. Currently around GR50, but got some ways to go in order to get items rolling a decent combo of boosts and get jewelry with strength base.

 

But would like to understand more about mechanics of thorns build. Had a shield with almost 8000 thorns damage, but replacing it with Akarat's awakening that didn't roll thorns at all didn't seem to change my paper doll thorns much at all. It has high strength, but strength bonus isn't accounted for in paper doll stats as you say.

 

Some questions:

  - When does the 2 piece bonus proc to deal thorns to all within 15 yards? Every time any mob hit me from any range, all in 15 yard range, in addition to the mob doing the damage if further away than 15 yards, everyone will be hit by my thorns? From the wording I'm guessing this doesn't apply to thorns applied with hack or from punish and 6 set bonus.

  - Why isn't hack worth it at high GR? Is it because the 6 set bonus already does this x6 so it only adds 16% damage on these attacks?

  - Thorns from vitality and Heart of Iron. Is that X vitality adding X to the paperdoll thorns value (similar to an item giving X thorns), and then boosted by strength percentage bonus later?

  - Is pig sticker good just because it's fast, and having a fifth primary bonus? If so, I guess a lot of other weapons could be equally good or better until you actually find a pig sticker with a good roll.

  - Why is attack speed important? As punish is single target, and 2 piece seems to proc of every mob hitting us, it sounds like we will do a lot of the damage not through attacking. Are we doing most of the damage by actively attacking with punish rather than getting hit? Or I guess we might need it against hard single targets.

  - How far can one progress with this build prior to having lots of ancients and prior to boost stats on ancients with cube?

 

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All of the links to Belt of the Trove are showing incorrect hover tooltips.  For a while it was consistently for Burden of the Invoker, but now some of them are showing (apparently random?) other items.

 

I realize this is probably a site bug, not anything wrong with the guide itself.  The actual URL/links are correctly pointing to the Belt, it's just the hover that's completely screwed.

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what do you think of using doom bringer instead of pig sticker. surely an extra 20% physical dmg would be better then .10 extra attacks per second?

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