Damien

Frost Mage 7.1.5

143 posts in this topic

if crit and haste are the go to stats now why are so many mastery trinkets at the top of the list?

Edited by Jhoira524

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1 hour ago, Jhoira524 said:

if crit and haste are the go to stats now why are so many mastery trinkets at the top of the list?

The gear section hasn't been updated, just the main talents and rotational stuff so far.

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having problems with the frostbolt freeze macro now. Weird it worked on ptr and on live until now. so it used to be you can cast frostbolts while the freeze reticle was hovering and you didnt have to use it right away. Now if you use that macro it will only let you cast one frostbolt and you cant cast until you drop the freeze or cancel it :( damn i loved that macro because i could then decide if i want to use the freeze or switch to water jet.

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Hi thanks for the guide!

At the viability in the current patch is said, the frost mage is the weakest dps mage spec (i've tested it and its true).
Do you think it will change with the help of the artifact weapon?

 

Thanks

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3 hours ago, Guest Funeralhate said:

Hi thanks for the guide!

At the viability in the current patch is said, the frost mage is the weakest dps mage spec (i've tested it and its true).
Do you think it will change with the help of the artifact weapon?

 

Thanks

Most likely it will be in a similar situation unless they change the tuning itself.

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This guide claims that Frost isn't viable but my friend, with a 714 item level, is competing quite nicely with mythic-geared fire mages in his guild. He used Incanter's Flow instead of Rune of Power and started messing with the talents to see what he could do. I just think it's unfair to say it's not viable when it clearly is. 

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9 hours ago, Guest Guest18 said:

This guide claims that Frost isn't viable but my friend, with a 714 item level, is competing quite nicely with mythic-geared fire mages in his guild. He used Incanter's Flow instead of Rune of Power and started messing with the talents to see what he could do. I just think it's unfair to say it's not viable when it clearly is. 

Ultimately everyone has their own personal definition of what "viable" means to them and to their raid. In my guides, it refers to how strong the specialization is, objectively, to its sister specializations and to the entire class spectrum as a whole. If you take a player capable of playing all 3 Mage specializations at a high level and have them perform that specialization on an average boss encounter, Fire pulls pretty comfortably ahead. Not viable to me means that a specialization is outclassed in every aspect by one of its sister specs, which is  the case here.

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I believe there is a mistake in the guide.

Lonely Winter Icon Lonely Winter is good for solo content. The Water Elemental has a little bit of ramp up on short lived targets, and Water Jet Icon Water Jet and Freeze Icon Freeze are a little underwhelming while leveling, making this an excellent choice for bursting down world content quickly.

However, Lonely Winter does not allow the elemental to be summoned.

 

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hello in first sorry if i dont speak very well english , if you take  Lonely Winter Icon Lonely Winter  you ll dont have the water jet who give you a charge of fingers of frost.. then your dps ll shut down isnt it ? 

 

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12 hours ago, Guest Kryso said:

I believe there is a mistake in the guide.

Lonely Winter Icon Lonely Winter is good for solo content. The Water Elemental has a little bit of ramp up on short lived targets, and Water Jet Icon Water Jet and Freeze Icon Freeze are a little underwhelming while leveling, making this an excellent choice for bursting down world content quickly.

However, Lonely Winter does not allow the elemental to be summoned.

 

That's not a mistake. The sentences explain that Freeze and Water Jet are underwhelming and that the Water Elemental's ramp up makes it a weaker choice, and therefore, playing with no Water Elemental (Lonely Winter) is a good choice.

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Something is missing from this guide. I don't mean to presume to know the class better than a pro, but I can find no mention of a very important mechanic. Every time I hear of someone with low dps as frost I find they do not do the following:

On Brain freeze proc, do NOT immediately cast Flurry. Instead, first cast a Frostbolt. Because of the travel time of Frostbolt, if you then immediately cast Flurry, the Flurry will impact first. Follow this up with an immediate Ice Lance. The end result, if done correctly is that all 3, the Frostbolt, Flurry, and ice lance, will benefit from the Shatter effect. It mentions the follow up ice lance, but not the leading Frostbolt. You are missing out a guaranteed crit. it takes practice, but hitting with all of these almost simultaneously to benefit from Flurry's effect, which only lasts for 1 second, is crucial. this is similar in practice to Firemages casting a Fireball with hot Streak before Pyroblast to double up hits and have more chances for more Hot Streaks. I may be wrong, but I am starting to believe that people missing this part is the reason that so many feel Frost is not viable, while we see a few outliers that perform so well. Try this out on a dummy. Again, it takes practice, but in no time you will see a dps increase.

Edited by CptDraco
typo

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35 minutes ago, CptDraco said:

Something is missing from this guide. I don't mean to presume to know the class better than a pro, but I can find no mention of a very important mechanic. Every time I hear of someone with low dps as frost I find they do not do the following:

On Brain freeze proc, do NOT immediately cast Flurry. Instead, first cast a Frostbolt. Because of the travel time of Frostbolt, if you then immediately cast Flurry, the Flurry will impact first. Follow this up with an immediate Ice Lance. The end result, if done correctly is that all 3, the Frostbolt, Flurry, and ice lance, will benefit from the Shatter effect. It mentions the follow up ice lance, but not the leading Frostbolt. You are missing out a guaranteed crit. it takes practice, but hitting with all of these almost simultaneously to benefit from Flurry's effect, which only lasts for 1 second, is crucial. this is similar in practice to Firemages casting a Fireball with hot Streak before Pyroblast to double up hits and have more chances for more Hot Streaks. I may be wrong, but I am starting to believe that people missing this part is the reason that so many feel Frost is not viable, while we see a few outliers that perform so well. Try this out on a dummy. Again, it takes practice, but in no time you will see a dps increase.

Hey there! Spell buffs & debuffs are calculated on cast, not on impact, so that actually doesn't work! That said, it wouldn't really alter the viability of Frost in any way as Frostbolt itself is an extraordinarily weak spell and Brain Freeze procs are fairly uncommon. Creative idea though!

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One question: now that Blizzard is a short cast spell that does pretty hefty amount of damage (even more when talented), I've found it a very noticeable damage increase already at 2 targets. In fact, with the talent, it's so high damage it's almost usable on singe target. Or am I just imagining things?

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2 hours ago, Furty said:

Hey there! Spell buffs & debuffs are calculated on cast, not on impact, so that actually doesn't work! That said, it wouldn't really alter the viability of Frost in any way as Frostbolt itself is an extraordinarily weak spell and Brain Freeze procs are fairly uncommon. Creative idea though!

You may wanna see this then. Blue Post

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10 hours ago, Guest Viima said:

One question: now that Blizzard is a short cast spell that does pretty hefty amount of damage (even more when talented), I've found it a very noticeable damage increase already at 2 targets. In fact, with the talent, it's so high damage it's almost usable on singe target. Or am I just imagining things?

Nope, there's actually an edit going in soon updating the overview of that talent! It's actually quite good in situations where sustained and even damage is important. If you do use it on any fight you should also be using it in your single target rotation!

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First off - thx for the guide, just thought I'd drop off some suggestions on improving readability of the rotational part. What I noticed is that - at least in the case of a frost mage - priorities are formed in patterns. I'm just summarizing my "patterns" which might be suboptimal because I just started playing this spec, but its more about the concept of patterns, rather than what the patterns actually are.

The Ray burst:

  1.  Ray of Frost

Glacial Spike burst (requires 5 icicles):

  1. Glacial Spike
  2. Ice Lance until frozen debuff is removed (I can squeeze three in)

Shatter Combo (requires Brain Freeze proc):

  1. Ice Lance to dump Fingers of Frost
  2. Frostbolt
  3. Immediate Flurry
  4. Immediate Ice Lance

The Frozen Touch burst:

  1. Frozen Touch
  2. Ice Lance x2

Waterjet burst:

  1. Frostbolt + (while casting frostbolt) Waterjet
  2. Frostbolt
  3. Ice Lance x2

Fishing for procs:

  • Frozen Orb (if off CD)
  • Frozen bolt until Fingers of Frost proc
  • Ice Lance

I noticed I only ever break the "fishing for procs" pattern. In all other cases I finish what I started, because it is likely that I would otherwise have wasted time AND lost damage (most damage is typically done at the end of the pattern).

These bursts can then be prioritized. My guesstimate:

  1. Ray burst
  2. Glacial Spike burst
  3. Shatter combo
  4. Frozen Touch burst
  5. Waterjet burst
  6. Fishing for procs

We then add the buffs to the mix: Icy Veins and/or Rune of Power can be applied to buff any of the patterns, where we can distinguish between "Worth postponing until buff is available", "Always buff if available" , "Only buff with RoP when nearing cap", "Never buff". This combination of buff strategy and patterns determines how you will plan your actions.

BTW: I tried to test the theory of CptDraco, but currently it doesn't work yet. When it is implemented and you are going to add this trick to the guide, it is worth noting that at relatively close range, the flurry doesn't manage to catch up with the frostbolt (thus making it miss the shatter proc).

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2 minutes ago, fr4x said:

We then add the buffs to the mix: Icy Veins and/or Rune of Power can be applied to buff any of the patterns, where we can distinguish between "Worth postponing until buff is available", "Always buff if available" , "Only buff with RoP when nearing cap", "Never buff". This combination of buff strategy and patterns determines how you will plan your actions.

I'm glad you got this takeaway after reading the guide. Few things to clear up for you though :) For starters, the Glacial Spike freeze doesn't work against raid bosses, which is why it isn't mentioned in the action priority list (exactly how Deep Freeze used to work). Glacial Spike is also fairly low priority as the icicles aren't going anywhere as long as you don't cast a Frostbolt and overcap, as the action priority list describes. Anyways, I'm glad you've found a way to break the spec into more palatable portions!

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2 minutes ago, Furty said:

For starters, the Glacial Spike freeze doesn't work against raid bosses, which is why it isn't mentioned in the action priority list (exactly how Deep Freeze used to work).

*facepalm* that's what you get for using only practice dummies... Might actually be worth mentioning in the guide then, because it puzzled me why it was so low on the priority list when it seems so good.

4 minutes ago, Furty said:

Glacial Spike is also fairly low priority as the icicles aren't going anywhere as long as you don't cast a Frostbolt and overcap, as the action priority list describes

It makes sense now :P Just as long as you cast Glacial Spike before you cast a frostbolt you're good. Still, I wander where it would fit the priority scheme when thinking in those "patterns" I gave?

Speaking of which: I'm still curious about your thought on the patterns: do they represent a correct reinterpretation of your priority list, am I right that you basically never "abort" a pattern?

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33 minutes ago, fr4x said:

Speaking of which: I'm still curious about your thought on the patterns: do they represent a correct reinterpretation of your priority list, am I right that you basically never "abort" a pattern?

Yeah, that's a good way of thinking about it. The priority list is designed to give you a straightforward overview that can apply to any encounter of any length, whereas these burst windows you've outlined are a good way of providing context for where the important damage comes from. You can then rearrange or plan these burst windows in a way that best fits the context of the encounter you're currently involved in.

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disregard found the answer in another thread thanks

 

Edited by NicholousCulberson

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As a ice mage, Mirror image uses frost bolt and so gives you icicles.

Meaning, use mirror image,spam ice glacier(lv 100 talent thingy)

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56 minutes ago, Guest some lad said:

As a ice mage, Mirror image uses frost bolt and so gives you icicles.

Meaning, use mirror image,spam ice glacier(lv 100 talent thingy)

It still doesn't pull ahead of either of the other options, but an interesting note.

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Should the Crit cap at stat priority not be 33.33%? As Shatter increases crit by x1.5 plus an additional 50%; will lead to 100% crit. 33.33%x1.5=50%+50%=100%

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55 minutes ago, Guest HeroFS said:

Should the Crit cap at stat priority not be 33.33%? As Shatter increases crit by x1.5 plus an additional 50%; will lead to 100% crit. 33.33%x1.5=50%+50%=100%

Boss level mobs have 3% crit suppression, meaning that you need an extra 3% crit to hit shattercap.

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      Fires of Heaven 845 +10% Pyro (Fire)
      (I know it doesnt add 10% each)

      i have in my bag i have:

      Seawitch's Foci 840 +12% Ignite (Arcane)
      Sizziling Fang 875 +12% Ignite (Fire)
      Soulforge Ember 835+12% Ignite (Fire)
      Molten Giant's Eye 860+3% Fire crit (Fire)
      Fires of Heaven 840 +10% Pyro (Fire)

      Ok last time i took out an Ignite relic i lost 40-50k dps. I put in the 855 Fires of Heaven relic and just did not stack up even though it was a 10ilvl increase. So my question is should i go tripple Ignite? or maybe double ignite with the crit relic too. I care a lot more about mythic + dps more than raid so keep that in mind. it doesnt seem like the pyro one is very good compared to ignite. Also if anyone can offer an explanation as to why i lost so much dps by switching in the supposedly best relic (pyro) that would be great. My best guess is that i was on some kind of soft cap with mastery and that it did a lot more dps but idk

      I think the best two options are running three ignite for insane cleave damage in mythic plus or, Sizziling Flame, Molten Giant, and Seawitch.
    • By Starym
      Update: Added more Mage changes for all 3 specs, all get increased damage to most skills and Comet Storm's damage buff goes up to 30%.
      More class tuning coming next reset and Nighthold trinkets get re-assesed, featuring dev notes.

      More changes are afoot, as there's class tuning coming up next reset for Mythic week, featuring Druid, Hunter, Mage, Monk, Paladin and Warlock tinkering. Paladins also get another ray of hope that their beloved Convergence of Fates will get un-nerfedintotheground as Blizzard re-assess some Nighthold trinkets in the second blue post below.
      Lore (source)
      As we prepare for the opening of Mythic Nighthold, we're planning another round of balance tuning for a few specs. These will be applied with the next weekly maintenance.
      Druid
      Feral Increased the damage of most Feral spells and abilities by 8%. (Ashamane's Frenzy, Brutal Slash, Ferocious Bite, Maim, Moonfire, Rake, Shred, Swipe, Thrash, Rip) Designer Notes: Feral's playstyle feels good, but isn't putting up the numbers that it should be, so we're giving them an across-the-board damage buff.
      Hunter
      Combat Experience (Pet Passive) now increases the damage of primary pets by 60% (up from 50%). Designer Notes: This is primarily a damage buff to Beast Mastery, but will have a tiny benefit to Survival and occasionally Marksmanship as well. Marksmanship Arcane Shot now generates 8 Focus (up from 5). Multi-Shot now generates 3 Focus per target hit (up from 2). Sidewinders damage increased by 33%. Designer Notes: Marksmanship has given a lot of feedback that the rotation often winds up casting too many consecutive Focus generators. We are making two changes: first, helping avoid that problem by increasing the Focus generation of Arcane Shot and Multi-Shot. Second, making it more attractive to use Sidewinders in more situations, for players who prefer the pacing of the rotation with that talent.   Mage
      Arcane Increased the damage of most Arcane spells and abilities by 8%. (Arcane Barrage, Arcane Blast, Arcane Explosion, Arcane Missiles, Arcane Orb, Nether Tempest, Supernova) Overpowered now increases the damage and mana cost bonuses of Arcane Power to 60% (down from 70%). Amplification now increases Arcane Missiles damage by 12% (down from 15%). Designer Notes: Arcane has been doing well in 7.1.5, but its numbers are lacking a bit. We're giving them an across-the-board damage buff, but tempering that with small reductions to a couple new talents that are proving to be too strong. Fire Increased the damage of most Fire spells and abilities by 3%. (Blast Wave, Cinderstorm, Dragon's Breath, Fire Blast, Fireball, Flame Patch, Flamestrike, Living Bomb, Meteor, Phoenix Flames, Pyroblast, Scorch) Pyroblast mana cost reduced by 20%. Flamestrikemana cost reduced by 17%. Designer Notes: Under certain circumstances, it was possible for Fire to run out of mana. It's only intended that mana is a constraint on Fire's utility, not its damage. Frost Increased the damage of most Frost spells and abilities by 4%. (Ebonbolt, Blizzard, Cone of Cold, Flurry, Frost Bomb, Frostbolt, Frozen Orb, Ice Lance, Ice Nova, Waterbolt, Ray of Frost, Water Jet) Comet Storm damage increased by 30%. Flurry now fires its missiles faster. Designer Notes: Comet Storm is failing to live up to expectations, so we're buffing its damage. The Flurry change will help Flurry feel more responsive, while simultaneously solving a potential issue where Winter's Chill could apply to two Ice Lances (instead of just one, as intended) at extremely high Haste levels.
      Monk
      Brewmaster Keg Smash damage increased by 10%, and it no longer deals reduced damage to 6+ targets. Breath of Fire damage increased 11%. Designer Notes: Brewmasters could use a bit of help on damage, especially in AoE.
      Paladin
      Retribution Crusade now increases damage and Haste by 3% per stack (down from 3.5%). Blade of Justice damage increased by 20%, unchanged in PvP. Designer Notes: Retribution's total damage is looking quite strong in 7.1.5, which is fine on its own. However, how that damage is delivered matters quite a bit as well. We've been seeing more and more than Paladins find that the optimal way to maximize their performance is to focus everything they can on boosting their damage during Crusade. This creates a number of problems, including: Crusade feels mandatory, your damage feels very unrewarding outside of Crusade, trinkets and artifact traits are viewed as either amazing or terrible based on whether they synergize with Crusade, and others.

      As such, we're going to tone down Crusade, and compensate with a buff to Blade of Justice. For those that had maximized Crusade to an extreme degree, this may result in a small overall nerf – this is intended. This change also helps prevent Divine Hammer from being too dominant in single-target situations.
      Warlock
      Destruction Chaos Bolt damage increased by 9%. Rain of Fire damage increased by 30%. Cataclysm damage increased by 29%. Designer Notes: Destruction's damage isn't as high as it should be. In particular, some of its spells that should feel the most rewarding aren't hitting hard enough, especially in AoE situations. We're buffing the damage of those spells.
      As always, there may be additional PvP-only tuning applied along with these changes. We'll share details on any such changes once they've been determined.
       
      Lore (source)
      We've been following the discussion on the recent changes to the Convergence of Fates trinkets for Retribution Paladins, as well as the surrounding discussions about trinket balance in general, and wanted to give a quick update on what we're planning:
      The original value of Convergence for Ret was wildly out of line with other trinkets, largely due to its interaction with Crusade. After investigation, however, we believe that the change we made may have overshot the mark. We’ll be making some additional adjustments to Convergence of Fate, to make sure that it’s still a good trinket for Ret.
      We’re also investigating Convergence’s value to other classes, particularly those with talents that replace the cooldowns that Convergence effects (such as Dark Arbiter for Unholy Death Knights). Like Crusade, those talents are made significantly more powerful when combined with Convergence of Fate, so we’ll likely need to make some adjustments when those kinds of talents are selected as well.
      We are also planning to improve Nighthold trinkets which have effects that aren’t a stat buff, such as the slam on Might of Krosus. We will post more information about this as soon as we have settled on the appropriate values, and are planning to make the changes with raid resets next week.