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Subtlety Rogue 7.3

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On 06/03/2017 at 2:40 AM, Guest Elodar said:

Hello all.  I need some serious help. I am trying to get back into WOW after an 8 year break and am playing a sub rogue.  I have worked on my gear and am at an 867 ilevel.  I have read a bunch of guides and watched several videos trying to learn the rotation for raids and m+ dungeons.  The issue I am running into is that my DPS is awful.  My guild ran ToV yesterday and they had to "carry" me through because my DPS on boss fights in only 175k to 200k no matter what I do.  We have hunters an pallys pushing 500 and 600k.  Is my damage output normal for my ilevel or am I just bad at this?  Or do sub rogues suck now?

I figure the first thing I need to look at is if I have the completely wrong stats or talents.  Can you please look and let me know if everything looks right.

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/emerald-dream/Elodar/simple

If that looks good I will try and figure out how to record my rotation and go from there.  Typically I stealth, Symbols of Death, and Shadowstrike to full points for a Nightblade.  I then Goremaw's Bite and Backstab to full points for and Eviscerate.  I then Shadowblades, Shadowdance, and Shadowstrike to full points for an Eviscerate.  Roughly continue a rotation like this using Shadowdance whenever it is available and trying to keep Symbols of Death and Nightblade up at all times.  

I mained a rogue from vanilla to wrath and raided a ton.  I was almost always top DPS and now I don't like the feeling of being bad at DPS.  Please help.  Thanks.

Without Logs showing exactly what you're doing in a fight, it's impossible to say where you can improve

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Guest Sprodobenis

Your opening sequence is missing one shadow dance. You can't cast shadowstrikes after using only shadow blades.

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1 hour ago, Guest Sprodobenis said:

Your opening sequence is missing one shadow dance. You can't cast shadowstrikes after using only shadow blades.

Assuming that you're talking about steps 11 and 12 here, the previous Shadow Dance will still be active at that point. 

You can typically always get 4x SS and 1x finisher (either Evis or Nightblade) in every Dance.

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On 3/7/2017 at 3:33 PM, Bunbohue said:

Good luck! 

Thanks for helping to answer! :)

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We are currently in the process of updating our guides in preparation for the release of 7.2 - please understand that we will not be answering questions in this section about "What is better for 7.2?" prior to the patch release, since all the information will be available when the patch goes live. Please be patient and thanks for waiting!

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Guest Silvya
On ‎16‎/‎01‎/‎2017 at 11:55 AM, Carrn said:

That actually does seem to be the case, thanks for clarifying

I'll submit a report about it when I get back from class, I don't have time right this second :P

It seems that has been corrected, now the buff caps at 20%. Still the talent is usefull as we overcap CP really easily.

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1 hour ago, Guest Silvya said:

It seems that has been corrected, now the buff caps at 20%. Still the talent is usefull as we overcap CP really easily.

Yeah. The 4pc bonus generates a lot of extra CPs, so I'm not really sure which way I'll go in terms of talents, but it's certainly much smoother to play with Anticipation. We shall see

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Guest Kufi

"Always open while in Stealth Icon Stealth.

  1. 13.5 seconds before the pull, cast Symbols of Death Icon Symbols of Death.
  2. 3.5 seconds before the pull, cast Symbols of Death Icon Symbols of Death.
  3. Use your Potion of the Old War Icon Potion of the Old War right before the pull.
  4. Cast Shadowstrike Icon Shadowstrike 3 times.
  5. Apply Nightblade Icon Nightblade to the target.
  6. Enter Shadow Dance Icon Shadow Dance and activate any on-use trinkets or racials."

It would be more beneficial to enter Shadow Dance IconShadow Dance prior to casting Nightblade Icon Nightblade, as that way, Nightblade would proc Deepening Shadows IconDeepening Shadows, and it wouldn't be wasted. As always, pool to 70 before Nightblade if you have Master of Shadows, otherwise, to 100. It would be only a minor dps gain, but it's better than nothing. 

Other than that, I appreciate this guide very very much, as all guides on IcyVeins. Keep up the good work :-)

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4 hours ago, Guest Kufi said:

"Always open while in Stealth Icon Stealth.

  1. 13.5 seconds before the pull, cast Symbols of Death Icon Symbols of Death.
  2. 3.5 seconds before the pull, cast Symbols of Death Icon Symbols of Death.
  3. Use your Potion of the Old War Icon Potion of the Old War right before the pull.
  4. Cast Shadowstrike Icon Shadowstrike 3 times.
  5. Apply Nightblade Icon Nightblade to the target.
  6. Enter Shadow Dance Icon Shadow Dance and activate any on-use trinkets or racials."

It would be more beneficial to enter Shadow Dance IconShadow Dance prior to casting Nightblade Icon Nightblade, as that way, Nightblade would proc Deepening Shadows IconDeepening Shadows, and it wouldn't be wasted. As always, pool to 70 before Nightblade if you have Master of Shadows, otherwise, to 100. It would be only a minor dps gain, but it's better than nothing. 

Other than that, I appreciate this guide very very much, as all guides on IcyVeins. Keep up the good work :-)

I think you'd actually waste most of a charge of SD if you do it that way, or a few precious seconds.

Reasoning being that you'll probably be right around the 40 Energy mark after your initial 3 casts, and rather than waiting a few seconds for Energy to pool, it's more beneficial to get Nightblade up asap, use the Nightblade cast to regain some more Energy (to the 60ish mark) through Relentless Strikes, and be able to use SD correctly at 75 Energy earlier. This will help fill your globals (as any time spent not casting with Old War up is a significant loss), but also guarantee a proper Dance with 4x SS and a finisher.

 

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Guest Tsuid

Hey i'm back after taking a break for over a year, i have a few questions for you guys ! I'm currently playin Sub (Weap full, no bonuseswith only 1 point in ring) and Sin (Weap full, no bonuses, ring 3/4).

- I love playing Sub but i feel like im not doing any dmg in ST situations. Mostly playing Sub for Mythic+. My ilvl is 893 with 2 cloak/neck leg and 2 set. My Sub dmg ST is around 400k and Sin is around 520k, are these decent numbers ?

- Since i just pulled 2 sets this week i was wondering if the dot bonus to mutilate would change my rotation on 2/3 adds situation. Should i replace FoK with Mutilate once on every mob to dot them all, and gain more energy ?

- 7.2.5 is coming and i'm really excited about Sub changes. Will Sub be finally competitive ? Should i drop Sin and maximise Sub weap instead ? 

 

Thx for your time !

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16 minutes ago, Guest Tsuid said:

- I love playing Sub but i feel like im not doing any dmg in ST situations. Mostly playing Sub for Mythic+. My ilvl is 893 with 2 cloak/neck leg and 2 set. My Sub dmg ST is around 400k and Sin is around 520k, are these decent numbers ?

I'm going to refrain from commenting on this mainly because I'd need a lot more information - you'd need to throw some form of log or something over to the Rogue forums and perhaps @Carrn can take a look at it for more insight. On the topic of using Sub in M+, as far as I am aware, Outlaw/Assassination are the go-to for M+. 

18 minutes ago, Guest Tsuid said:

- Since i just pulled 2 sets this week i was wondering if the dot bonus to mutilate would change my rotation on 2/3 adds situation. Should i replace FoK with Mutilate once on every mob to dot them all, and gain more energy ?

The issue with this, I believe, is that the DoT is pretty short as well as costing a huge amount of energy to put up (55 for Mut vs. 35 for FoK). For 2 targets, you would use it to keep the bleed up since you are using Mut at that point anyway. When you hit 3+, I think you end up losing damage given that you aren't triggering poisons via FoK, your energy usage is far higher. Thoughts @Carrn?

24 minutes ago, Guest Tsuid said:

- 7.2.5 is coming and i'm really excited about Sub changes. Will Sub be finally competitive ? Should i drop Sin and maximise Sub weap instead ? 

Unfortunately, it's too early to tell. As we can see with some other classes (Havoc DH, Ele Shaman), there are still some pretty major changes going out that can essentially make or break a class. The only way we can really know is by waiting :(

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2 hours ago, Guest Tsuid said:

Hey i'm back after taking a break for over a year, i have a few questions for you guys ! I'm currently playin Sub (Weap full, no bonuseswith only 1 point in ring) and Sin (Weap full, no bonuses, ring 3/4).

- 7.2.5 is coming and i'm really excited about Sub changes. Will Sub be finally competitive ? Should i drop Sin and maximise Sub weap instead ? 

 

Thx for your time !

YAY SUB!

If you want the short answer, Sub is totally viable right now. If you like the spec, don't let anyone tell you otherwise. I haven't had much time to play on the PTR, but at my best guess it will continue to be completely viable. If you actually check the warcraftlogs data, you'll notice that at the 90th percentile Sub is doing better than Sin even now (with 6% the number of parses).

By ring you mean the extra traits after you pass the 35 mark and empower the weapon?

There's a couple big reasons why nearly everybody is playing Sin over Sub, imo (there are others, but these are the big two)

  1. The spec is basically designed to tunnel a boss, which suits Nighthold really well. It doesn't have anything in the way of AoE or multi-target (FoK is a complete joke), and between Sprint / Cloak / Shadowstep can avoid the minimal boss mechanics that melee has to deal with and stay tunneling 
  2. Skill floor / ceiling. Sub is significantly more punishing if you mess up your DPS rotation - 1 bad Dance and you're significantly behind. Sin is much more forgiving in terms of playstyle, with a much easier Artifact ability and a fire-and-forget DPS cooldown.

The new weapon traits benefit Sub quite a bit, and make a not perfect Dance easier to recover from. The free finishers from your artifact weapon make keeping SoD up much easier, the Energy when Shadow Techniques procs fills in holes very nicely, and the free extra point in Energetic Stabbing makes us even less reliant on having those relics and means we can collect ones that directly increase damage.

Going into ToS, the Sub set bonuses sound really nice - the Energy granted by SoD will be a great addition to all of the above. Sin's are focused on solving the multi-target problems that the spec has, which means it will likely fall off quite a bit on Single Target. It will still be popular due to the skill floor/ceiling as mentioned above, but it will almost certainly drop off

Outlaw looks strong too - don't ignore it either, although I have yet to see any real numbers for it

Quote

- I love playing Sub but i feel like im not doing any dmg in ST situations. Mostly playing Sub for Mythic+. My ilvl is 893 with 2 cloak/neck leg and 2 set. My Sub dmg ST is around 400k and Sin is around 520k, are these decent numbers 

For your specific numbers, I don't really have anything to go off based on what you said - it's nearly impossible to give advice without logs to see where you're going wrong. 

As @Blainie said, if you can grab some logs you should drop by the Rogue Forums, and I can have a look at stuff and work with you to figure out where you can improve

Quote

- Since i just pulled 2 sets this week i was wondering if the dot bonus to mutilate would change my rotation on 2/3 adds situation. Should i replace FoK with Mutilate once on every mob to dot them all, and gain more energy 

As for Mut on AoE fights, it really depends how much you're critting. If FoK and Mut are both giving you 3CP, FoK will be more Energy efficient, but if FoK is only giving you 2 then Mut is costing 110 Energy (2 casts) for 6CP and FoK is costing 105 (3 casts) then Mut is better (more damage in less time for a negligible cost).

That said, in the context of M+, it really depends more on which affixes you're dealing with. Usually I'll FoK on 4+ targets to get some quick Ruptures out on some of the higher hp targets who will live longer, changing targets with my white hits to apply poisons to the targets I'll be Rupturing, before deciding whether I'll swap to Mut or not for priority target damage or if I won't get enough CP from FoK. 

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Guest Tsuid

Thank you for these answers i'll invest in Sub then and post log if i still feel like i deal low dmg on ST :) Btw is DFA such a bad choice atm ? I see most of sims with Master of Shadows slightly ahead but i rly enjoy the big numbers of DFA and the aoe it provides for M+ trashes.

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On 2017-6-10 at 3:23 PM, Guest Tsuid said:

Thank you for these answers i'll invest in Sub then and post log if i still feel like i deal low dmg on ST :) Btw is DFA such a bad choice atm ? I see most of sims with Master of Shadows slightly ahead but i rly enjoy the big numbers of DFA and the aoe it provides for M+ trashes.

DfA is viable if you're able to use it on cooldown on AoE packs. It's a massive single target loss, however, so in my opinion it's really not worth it. Your damage is more useful on priority targets and bosses, because there are loads of other classes that can cleave better than Sub Rogue

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On 6/11/2017 at 7:25 AM, Carrn said:

DfA is viable if you're able to use it on cooldown on AoE packs. However, it's a massive single target loss, however, so in my opinion it's really not worth it. Your damage is more useful on priority targets and bosses, because there are loads of other classes that can cleave better than Sub Rogue

From what I remember, you play Sub a great deal and have done for a long time. Just for anyone reading - would you swap to Outlaw if you needed AoE, or just stay as Sub and focus down targets?

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We are currently in the process of updating our guides in preparation for the release of 7.2.5 - all questions about "What is better for 7.2.5, X or Y?" will be answered in our guide updates. Thanks for your patience while we get everything completed and good luck in the new patch!

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10 hours ago, Blainie said:

From what I remember, you play Sub a great deal and have done for a long time. Just for anyone reading - would you swap to Outlaw if you needed AoE, or just stay as Sub and focus down targets?

In order to not make this post a full length novel where I break down each dungeon into pros and cons of the two specs (which I started writing before realizing that it could be its own guide and that I'd be here for hours) I'll be (almost unhelpfully) brief

It's pretty situational, because in terms of pure damage they're very competitive; they can each change talent builds to be more or less effective in different scenarios, based both on the specific dungeon but also on the group setup. It mostly comes down to how comfortable the person in question is playing each spec.

I don't really know how strong Outlaw will be after their buffs for 7.2.5, but they still won't have any real burst AoE without a talent like Cannon Barrage (like DfA for Sub it's a viable option if you can hit multiple targets on cooldown, but results in a fairly significant loss on boss fights). The flip side is that Outlaw's sustained AoE on a small (3-ish) group is really nice; if the dungeon has small groups of high health mobs, it can be very strong.

On the flip side, Sub has better AoE burst with damage from Shadow Nova and Shuriken Storm, and the new passive which buffs Eviscerate's damage is very easy to stack up in most dungeons. Sub's cleave is still good on fewer targets as well, as Nightblade will (by my rough guess) still be maintained on 2-3 targets. Sub has the additional benefit of more stuns on demand if needed - while nailing 3 targets with Cheap Shot is a significant damage loss, the utility of having a limitless number of on-demand stuns is something that shouldn't be overlooked.

TLDR: I'd play Sub, since the one area where Outlaw is stronger isn't a common occurrence in M+. Also screw Roll the Bones.

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14 hours ago, Carrn said:

TLDR: I'd play Sub, since the one area where Outlaw is stronger isn't a common occurrence in M+. Also screw Roll the Bones.

Even if it was brief, it was still an interesting read - I'm sure it will be for others as well!

Also, +1 on the RtB.

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I'm wondering if the new ring is really a mediocre legendary as it seems better than the boots (same purpose but better regen overall).

On a side note I'm a bit lost since westerday's patch. Not sure why but the rotation feels a bit clunky now with the SD duration nerf and the removal of the teleportation part on shadowstrike. I don't really get the point of the changes as we were supposed to get a SD closer to a classic CD but without taking specific talent they did not add some damage boost to it, shadowstrikes don't really hit much harder than before and you don't cast them as much as before. Finishers hit harder but sin ones are still strongers. Not really fond of the new SoD too but I'm probably at fault as I tend to hit the button to refresh the buff before pull (and loose 3s + 40 energy >>).

I suppose we need to wait and see how the different builds will see application in tomb of sargeras as well as interactions with new set..

 

Edited by Silvya

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Given that abilities like Symbols of Death Icon Symbols of Deathincur no global cooldown, this specialization rewards the fleet fingered as there are a  considerable number of buttons to press in very small windows of time. Ultimately, this is a specialization that rewards the initiated and informed but can be incredibly punishing to the neophytes. 

can we just talk about the ardent mastery of the english language here. Good lord the summary section for the sub rogue rotation page is like poetry, it's just a pleasure to read. 10/10

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Guest Stardrowned

I've noticed a lot of pages are deemed as "updated" but surely the rotation page is out of whack with the new changes to Symbols of Death and others?

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3 hours ago, demonardvark said:

Given that abilities like Symbols of Death Icon Symbols of Deathincur no global cooldown, this specialization rewards the fleet fingered as there are a  considerable number of buttons to press in very small windows of time. Ultimately, this is a specialization that rewards the initiated and informed but can be incredibly punishing to the neophytes. 

can we just talk about the ardent mastery of the english language here. Good lord the summary section for the sub rogue rotation page is like poetry, it's just a pleasure to read. 10/10

♥♥♥

2 hours ago, Guest Stardrowned said:

I've noticed a lot of pages are deemed as "updated" but surely the rotation page is out of whack with the new changes to Symbols of Death and others?

You should see a full overhaul sometime today. Given the amount of redesign the spec received it has taken a little longer than the other specs to complete for this patch.

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6 hours ago, Silvya said:

I suppose we need to wait and see how the different builds will see application in tomb of sargeras as well as interactions with new set..

Let's just hope things actually settle slightly and the T20 bonus stays the same for a while!

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38 minutes ago, Furty said:

♥♥♥

You should see a full overhaul sometime today. Given the amount of redesign the spec received it has taken a little longer than the other specs to complete for this patch.

I definitely appreciate the time and work that goes into an update of that size and I'm very interested in digging into it later today!

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2 hours ago, Kryptknight said:

I definitely appreciate the time and work that goes into an update of that size and I'm very interested in digging into it later today!

Most of the incoming changes should be live now :) There will be more updates, as always, as we learn more and I and other hardcore players become more comfortable with the changes and discover new tricks! 

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