Jump to content
FORUMS
Damien

Subtlety Rogue 7.3

Recommended Posts

2 hours ago, Eudee said:

It says you want us to run Deeper Stratagem, but you also want us to be able to get at least 4 shadowstrikes in during a single shadow dance with subterfuge. Without vigor or alacrity, how do we manage that?

Unfortunately, I'm not well versed enough to give an answer on this one, but tagging @Carrn in the hopes that he can help!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 9/18/2016 at 7:05 PM, Smoker said:

It's work 100%, u can check :)

p.s. U didnt understand me, whats better: 3 sec attack or spend all energy -> stop attack and w8 vanish?

I probably wouldn't stop attacking. It's nice for phase changes and that sort of thing, or running over to an add and getting a Vanish for free, but it's really situational

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, Eudee said:

It says you want us to run Deeper Stratagem, but you also want us to be able to get at least 4 shadowstrikes in during a single shadow dance with subterfuge. Without vigor or alacrity, how do we manage that?

How much Energy are you entering Shadow Dance with?

It might be that you aren't starting with enough pooled, but it also might be that that section is written with a higher level of gear in mind, where we have a little more Haste by default.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Celiok

Is it ok if I have like no haste for sub rogue?
I am at 2% atm,is it a dps increase if I trade haste for more mastery/vers?
Does the low energy regen result is a dps loss?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Guest Celiok said:

Is it ok if I have like no haste for sub rogue?
I am at 2% atm,is it a dps increase if I trade haste for more mastery/vers?
Does the low energy regen result is a dps loss?

It's pretty normal at this point. You should generally be using any item that has a higher item level, regardless of stats.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I was testing it out and even if I danced with 100 energy there wasn't any way that I could squeeze out 4 shadowstrikes. I'm at 8.81% haste and was only able to get 3 out on a dummy when using dance and using no other abilities. With Vigor I could easily get 5 SS in.

Quick edit: When Symbols of Death are used when you first enter SD you have even less energy and only manage to squeeze out 2 SS unless under the effects of Goremaw's Bite, which only happens once a minute, in which case I can get three.
Also, when you have the Deeper Stratagem talent you have a 100% chance for Relentless strikes to refund 40 energy, then a 20% chance for another 40 energy sometimes resulting in a 45 net energy gain when you use a finisher, is this intended? 

Edit 2: Looked it up and it is intended, meaning you could squeeze out more shadowstrikes if RS procs twice, but is unlikely since it only has that 20% chance. I think this should be noted, though.

Edited by Eudee

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, Eudee said:

I was testing it out and even if I danced with 100 energy there wasn't any way that I could squeeze out 4 shadowstrikes. I'm at 8.81% haste and was only able to get 3 out on a dummy when using dance and using no other abilities. With Vigor I could easily get 5 SS in.

Quick edit: When Symbols of Death are used when you first enter SD you have even less energy and only manage to squeeze out 2 SS unless under the effects of Goremaw's Bite, which only happens once a minute, in which case I can get three.
Also, when you have the Deeper Stratagem talent you have a 100% chance for Relentless strikes to refund 40 energy, then a 20% chance for another 40 energy sometimes resulting in a 45 net energy gain when you use a finisher, is this intended? 

Edit 2: Looked it up and it is intended, meaning you could squeeze out more shadowstrikes if RS procs twice, but is unlikely since it only has that 20% chance. I think this should be noted, though.

Yeah I have a feeling that that section was written with a higher level of gear in mind.

So long as you're using SS until 5 or 6 cp, using Evis, then SS as many more times as possible you should be alright

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Generic comment being mass posted over the comments threads guys.

We are aware of the changes and our writers are working hard to update the guides to suit what has changed. Currently, there is a lot of work still to be done and it's unlikely that every guide will be up-to-date immediately. Expect a flood of updates over the coming days that will answer all of your questions about what is now best after X change, in time for the reset next week.

Thanks for your understanding and patience.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Dachdegger
On 21.9.2016 at 2:57 AM, Eudee said:

I was testing it out and even if I danced with 100 energy there wasn't any way that I could squeeze out 4 shadowstrikes. I'm at 8.81% haste and was only able to get 3 out on a dummy when using dance and using no other abilities. With Vigor I could easily get 5 SS in.

Quick edit: When Symbols of Death are used when you first enter SD you have even less energy and only manage to squeeze out 2 SS unless under the effects of Goremaw's Bite, which only happens once a minute, in which case I can get three.
Also, when you have the Deeper Stratagem talent you have a 100% chance for Relentless strikes to refund 40 energy, then a 20% chance for another 40 energy sometimes resulting in a 45 net energy gain when you use a finisher, is this intended? 

Edit 2: Looked it up and it is intended, meaning you could squeeze out more shadowstrikes if RS procs twice, but is unlikely since it only has that 20% chance. I think this should be noted, though.

You could like use Symbols of death at the end of SD where you have ~ 0.3 sec remaining. Because you cant use a SS in this timewindow as it will abort the cast you are free to reapply symbols in this window.

I have a question tho: The 3rd gold perk (Shadow nova i guess its in english), does it proc when leaving SD or only on Vanish/Stealth?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Guest Dachdegger said:

I have a question tho: The 3rd gold perk (Shadow nova i guess its in english), does it proc when leaving SD or only on Vanish/Stealth?

Yes, it works with SD.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Kizeron

As previously stated, I too am struggling with the transition to DS from Vigor.
I find that I can only SS 4 times if I either get:
1) good 'Shadow techniques' procs so I can eviscerate with only 2 usages of SS - ( have 5 or 6 cps ) that way I get energy back from 'Relentless strikes' to get the last 2 SS's
2) I get good procs with 'Energetic Stabbing' which simply gets me enough energy to get through..

I've found a very minor solution while haste doesn't quite generate enough energy, is the 'Stabilized Energy Pendant' necklace, which grants 5% more maximum energy. I haven't tested it thoroughly though.
For aoe however, on more than 5 adds I find DS a clear winner...


On another note, I don't know if other people have this issue but I feel with vigor talent and shadow blades active ( since SS with shadow blades up gives 3 combo points ), after one SS with 3/5 combo points I'm unsure whether to SS again and over cap to 6/5 or to wait for a shadow techniques proc to get 4/5 or 5/5 cps.  Though waiting is not usually a good idea since I don't want to waste shadow dance..
Anybody have any advice on this situation?
 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 hours ago, Guest Kizeron said:

As previously stated, I too am struggling with the transition to DS from Vigor.
I find that I can only SS 4 times if I either get:
1) good 'Shadow techniques' procs so I can eviscerate with only 2 usages of SS - ( have 5 or 6 cps ) that way I get energy back from 'Relentless strikes' to get the last 2 SS's
2) I get good procs with 'Energetic Stabbing' which simply gets me enough energy to get through..

I've found a very minor solution while haste doesn't quite generate enough energy, is the 'Stabilized Energy Pendant' necklace, which grants 5% more maximum energy. I haven't tested it thoroughly though.
For aoe however, on more than 5 adds I find DS a clear winner...


On another note, I don't know if other people have this issue but I feel with vigor talent and shadow blades active ( since SS with shadow blades up gives 3 combo points ), after one SS with 3/5 combo points I'm unsure whether to SS again and over cap to 6/5 or to wait for a shadow techniques proc to get 4/5 or 5/5 cps.  Though waiting is not usually a good idea since I don't want to waste shadow dance..
Anybody have any advice on this situation?
 

Yeah, 4 is challenging without a bit more passive Haste that comes with item level. Don't worry about it too much, just do your best to enter SD with as much Energy as you can 

And yes, DS makes it MUCH easier to use SD with SB up. DS lets you go SS > SS > Evis, rather than struggle with wasting CPs or not. My advice would be to use DS

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Mr. Sealion

Hi, just a quick question.

Is there a reason you've suggested MoD as the optimal talent for tier 7?

Cause apparently, according to sims (https://onedrive.live.com/view.aspx?resid=E269C12457D12FAC!117&ithint=file%2cxlsx&app=Excel&authkey=!AHxBKV_biTNzfRY), masters of shadows seems to pull ahead, and by a not-so-small margin (roughly 13k on single target).

 

Can you confirm this?

sub sims.png

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So I am new here, and I'm not sure if I am reading this right, but is the Sub. gear/legendaries/BiS page showing the BiS trinkets for Outlaw? The trinket sims anyways? Even if you look at the gear for each sim it looks like it has the Dreadblades equipped.

Edited by Necrolepsey

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Guest Mr. Sealion said:

Is there a reason you've suggested MoD as the optimal talent for tier 7?

Passing this on to Furty, will let him take a look/update! Thanks for letting us know :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Necrolepsey said:

So I am new here, and I'm not sure if I am reading this right, but is the Sub. gear/legendaries/BiS page showing the BiS trinkets for Outlaw? The trinket sims anyways? Even if you look at the gear for each sim it looks like it has the Dreadblades equipped.

It does look like it, yes. I'll get this updated ASAP, thanks for letting us know!

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Kopaszfelix said:

What do you guys think is the ideal haste % with DS for around ilvl 860?

I don't think there's really an ideal haste % for each item level that can be quoted. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Kizeron

^ He might be like a soft cap to get 4 SS's in a shadow dance the majority of the time or something?

I don't know if this helps anyone one it's a small idea - and well subtley is obviously all about the subtleties.
I find trying to align shadow dance for when I have to reapply nightblade - allows me to pull off 4 SS's much more often because of evis costing 35 energy and nightblade only costing 25 (I get stuck with full cps but no energy a decent amount). Then after you cast that - you're guaranteed at least 25 energy back if you used 5 or 6 cps to use for your next SS.

Also Blainie it seems to be completely left out that sprint is a dps cooldown once you get the artifact point to make you vanish 3 secs after using it without being damaged~
 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
50 minutes ago, Guest Kizeron said:

^ He might be like a soft cap to get 4 SS's in a shadow dance the majority of the time or something?

For that, unfortunately, I honestly have no idea, sorry! @Carrn, any ideas?

51 minutes ago, Guest Kizeron said:

Also Blainie it seems to be completely left out that sprint is a dps cooldown once you get the artifact point to make you vanish 3 secs after using it without being damaged~

Thanks for the rest of your comment, hopefully it can help someone out! As for this, I'll pass it on to Furty so that we can get it updated and included :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
52 minutes ago, Guest Kizeron said:

^ He might be like a soft cap to get 4 SS's in a shadow dance the majority of the time or something?

I don't know if this helps anyone one it's a small idea - and well subtley is obviously all about the subtleties.
I find trying to align shadow dance for when I have to reapply nightblade - allows me to pull off 4 SS's much more often because of evis costing 35 energy and nightblade only costing 25 (I get stuck with full cps but no energy a decent amount). Then after you cast that - you're guaranteed at least 25 energy back if you used 5 or 6 cps to use for your next SS.

Also Blainie it seems to be completely left out that sprint is a dps cooldown once you get the artifact point to make you vanish 3 secs after using it without being damaged~
 

Seems like slightly over 10% Haste is enough to get 4 SS in before Dance is over. I don't have that much myself, but as I've said previously I'm not too worried about it. 3 isn't ideal but not game-breakingly bad, and we'll gradually get more Haste as gear goes up.

1 minute ago, Blainie said:

Thanks for the rest of your comment, hopefully it can help someone out! As for this, I'll pass it on to Furty so that we can get it updated and included :)

It's actually 3 seconds without taking damage OR dealing it. It's very situational and isn't normally a dps boost, however in certain situations it might be good (running to an add, or phase changes on fights, for example).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
48 minutes ago, Carrn said:

It's actually 3 seconds without taking damage OR dealing it. It's very situational and isn't normally a dps boost, however in certain situations it might be good (running to an add, or phase changes on fights, for example).

Is it worth stopping auto-attacking during a period of downtime (where you are waiting for energy) for it to proc?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, Blainie said:

Is it worth stopping auto-attacking during a period of downtime (where you are waiting for energy) for it to proc?

I'm not sure if it only stops on actual attacks or dealing any damage at all - if it includes DoTs it's probably not worth letting Nightblade drop and to only take advantage of it when possible. I'm sure there will be times when it's possible, such as transitioning into the Eye on Il'gynoth, but on Single Target fights I don't think it would be worth it

If it only requires you to not attack and you can still have DoTs up, then yeah absolutely when you get to a point where you have low energy and don't need to do anything else for a few seconds it would be great

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, Carrn said:

I'm not sure if it only stops on actual attacks or dealing any damage at all - if it includes DoTs it's probably not worth letting Nightblade drop and to only take advantage of it when possible. I'm sure there will be times when it's possible, such as transitioning into the Eye on Il'gynoth, but on Single Target fights I don't think it would be worth it

If it only requires you to not attack and you can still have DoTs up, then yeah absolutely when you get to a point where you have low energy and don't need to do anything else for a few seconds it would be great

Interesting. Will see what Furty says as well. Don't suppose you have the trait to test it? My rogue isn't even 110 yet.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Blainie said:

Interesting. Will see what Furty says as well. Don't suppose you have the trait to test it? My rogue isn't even 110 yet.

Not yet, soon though. Haven't had as much time to grind as I would like, with how active the forums have been and the demands of being in Law, and I went Outlaw first  which means I wasted a ton of AP haha. 

I'll ask around to the couple people I know who played Sub since the start and see if they've picked it up yet. Not sure when I'll have an answer for you but I'll let you know when I do

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

  • Similar Content

    • By Staff
      Season 4 has partially started on NA servers, as players are noticing elements of the new season popping up. This is actually planned and was announced by Blizzard, as you can see below, but players were not expecting this much to change before the reset. 
      Season 4 (Source)
      Dragonflight Season 3 will be ending April 22 at 10:00 p.m. PDT, the night before the regularly scheduled maintenance, with Dragonflight Season 4 beginning immediately following on April 23. The blue post indicated that the season should start soon after, on the 23rd, which presumably means after the weekly reset. Here are some of the things that have already changed.
      Players have been reporting various aspects of the season being in-game, starting with Season 3 items now being marked as legacy, with a grey tooltip, as spotted by Strosts:

      Source. 
      Crests and Flightstones have also been reset, with new ones dropping from World Quests.
      Catalyst charges are also now in Season 4 mode, as spotted by lemoncocoapuff.
    • By Staff
      We have four new zones coming in the War Within, but just how large are they, all told? We have a few community members showing their relative sizes off, comparing to various other expansion landmasses, which we'll be taking a look at today.
      First of all, the new expansion has one above-ground zone and three below, as the Isle of Dorn is our gateway into the three underground zones. This is best showcased by Sturtime2, who broke the Dragonflight and War Within zones down (with Zaralek, Emerald Dream and Forbidden Reach all being post-expansion launch zones):

      Source. 
      Now that we have a better idea of the War Within zone structure, we have a more visually direct comparison by CygnetFR, who also added Kul Tiras in there for comparison:

      Source.
      And finally we have another Dragon Isles comparison, only this time with the Easern Kingdoms thrown in, courtesy of keyboardturn:
    • By Staff
      Blizzard have offered some feedback on player comments on the Priest Hero talents on the War Within Alpha, as our own guide writer, Publik, pointed out some issues with Voidreaver.
      Priest Feedback (Source)
      Hello!
      Thanks for this well-written post on the state of Voidweaver for Shadow.
        First, to clarify the functionality of the rift: There are not current plans for there to be a pull-in effect. We’re closely watching the power level of utility coming from hero talent trees. Given the frequency of the rift, a pull-in would surpass the power level aiming for.
        We appreciate the feedback that the slow effect from the slow effect from No Escape may not be utilized as often as we’re hoping especially compared to Dark Energy. As far as gameplay goes, the Entropic Rift window feeling tough to manage is something we aim to improve on during our next pass of the tree. Beyond that, there’s a lot of great bugs and feedback points here that we’ll bring back to the team and discuss.
       
      Some updates on the other Priest Hero Talent trees:
      We’ve updated Oracle’s design to be focused on healing instead of support mechanics and are looking for feedback about how it plays. There are a couple of talents that are not currently ready, and we’ll update those in the coming weeks, including a revision to the capstone. We’re also very excited about the visual effects for this tree and hope you are, too!
      The design for Archon is currently a work in progress. The core of the design revolves around Halo, and we’ll unveil its talents soon.
    • By Starym
      Here we are with the final week of Season 3! While Patch 10.2.6 will continue on until May 7th, the new season will change everything, as we moving on from Amirdrassil to Awakened raids! The final week has brought a lot of change all over the place, including the very top, so let's see where everyone ended up.
      Note: We are using Normalized scores instead of raw DPS for the Warcraft Logs rankings. The u.gg rankings at the bottom are raw DPS. Normalized scores take into account the outlier boss fights where certain specs could stack massive DPS (due to the nature of the fight, whether it's AoE spam or something else), which would then affect their overall score for the whole raid.
      Mythic
      Overall Damage 95th Percentile
      We have some big shifts at the top here at the end of Season 3, as Subtlety reclaims its throne once more! Frost DK proves its unstable nature and drops a huge 6 spots down into 7th, but Unholy represents the DK class a lot better and stays strong in 2nd. Outlaw joins the Rogue resurgence and moves 5 spots up into 3rd, as Retribution slots in to 4th after Elemental's big 5 spot fall. Arcane joins the big risers as it makes its way from 11th all the way up into 5th, followed by the only other stable  spec in the top 10, Fury. Arms moves two up into 8th, with Havoc closing out the patch strong, at the end of the top 10 after a giant 8-spot resurgence. The rest of the Mages huddle right outside, followed by Enhancement. The bottom 3 remains the same, as we see Feral and Beast Mastery finish at the end of the list at the end of the patch, with Augmentation still waiting for some proper calculations to find itself near the top where it belongs.

      95th percentile Mythic data by Warcraft Logs.
      Overall Damage All Percentiles
      We have a different No.1 at the end of the season in the generalist bracket, and it's a relatively unexpected one! Retribution uses all those gathered Fyr'alaths to grab the very top spot from Subtlety at the end of the line, as the rest of the top 5 is filled with axe-wielders as well! Fire moves 2 up in 6th, as Outlaw makes a big move in 7th, 7 up! Havoc and Arcane close out the top 10, both rising, as we see Devastation fall down into the bottom 3, joining Beast Mastery and Augmentation.
      All percentiles Mythic data by Warcraft Logs.
      Boss Only Damage All Percentiles
      Subtlety manages to take over in the direct damage charts as well, taking Unholy down a peg, with Retribution remaining stable in 3rd. Survival drops a few spots, down to the bottom of the top 10, as both Druids huddle up and grab 6th and 7th.
      All percentiles Mythic data by Warcraft Logs.
      Heroic
      Overall Damage All Percentiles
      Heroic remains very stable at the end of the season, with only Havoc and Demonology switching places in 5th, and Feral, Survival and Shadow moving into the top 10.

      All percentiles Heroic data by Warcraft Logs.

      U.GG Raw Mythic DPS Rankings
      U.gg's rankings are based on actual DPS taken from Warcraft Logs data, focusing on the top players and span the past two weeks. This chart is for Mythic only.
      Affliction retains its No.1 spot in the raw DPS rankings, as the rest of the top 3 remains stable as well. We see Subtlety actually drop down here, the opposite of the points-based charts, with Demonology and Arms moving past it. Frost and Unholy DKs move up together, gaining 3 and 2 spots, respectively. Fire closes out the top 10 1 spot down, and we see the two Druids remain in the bottom 3 at the end of the season.
      Mythic chart by u.gg.
       
      Meanwhile, if you're looking for more information you can check out our Dragonflight class guides, Amirdrassil boss guides, the raid DPS tier list, as well as more data from Warcraft Logs here.
    • By Stan
      Remember to use up any remaining Catalyst charges today before they reset tomorrow!
      Your Revival Catalyst charges will reset to zero at the start of Dragonflight Season 4. If you have any unused charges, make sure to spend them today to secure your class set bonuses.
      In Dragonflight Season 4, you'll earn Catalyst charges weekly, with the first one available tomorrow! Be sure to log in with all your alts tomorrow to claim this charge.
      For more information, visit our Revival Catalyst guide!
×
×
  • Create New...