Damien

Retribution Paladin 7.2

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This thread is for comments about our Retribution Paladin guide for Legion.

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I'm a little confused by the advice with Execution Sentence to cast Judgement and then immediately cast it. Since it's now the time the proc triggers rather than when the spell was cast that matters, wouldn't it make more sense to cast ES, build up some more holy power, and then judge? That way you can cram more holy power abilities into that judgement. Or is there something I'm missing here?

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First time/guest poster.  After reading the vitriol from other commenters, I too wish to express my gratitude to the folks that maintain this site.  Updating most of the guides the day the patch went live was rather surprising and greatly appreciated.  Thanks and don't let the bastards get you all down.

Seriously folks, if you're not offering constructive criticism (and there were a few very helpful posts in that vein), shame on you.  Vent your rage in more productive ways.

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6 hours ago, Guest Eridius said:

I'm a little confused by the advice with Execution Sentence to cast Judgement and then immediately cast it. Since it's now the time the proc triggers rather than when the spell was cast that matters, wouldn't it make more sense to cast ES, build up some more holy power, and then judge? That way you can cram more holy power abilities into that judgement. Or is there something I'm missing here?

The thing here is that if you gather 5 holy power then precast es then BoW to use the 3 TV  it's 8 GCDs gone without a spender being used at the start of a fight with the ring being popped which is not worth, I'd just CS>BoJ>CS>J and go.

And since you have 30 % haste your judgement will always line up with its duration

Sims strongly suggest that you always want to use judgment on cooldown mid-fight regardless.

just no need to build for a window that has no meaning for single target. Of course pooling and waiting can still be a thing when adds are about to come in.

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45 minutes ago, Guest Jest said:

First time/guest poster.  After reading the vitriol from other commenters, I too wish to express my gratitude to the folks that maintain this site.  Updating most of the guides the day the patch went live was rather surprising and greatly appreciated.  Thanks and don't let the bastards get you all down.

Seriously folks, if you're not offering constructive criticism (and there were a few very helpful posts in that vein), shame on you.  Vent your rage in more productive ways.

 

On July 20, 2016 at 3:56 AM, Guest Rave said:

Pretty surprised to see plenty of hate from the community. Sure the beta has been out for a while but suddenly putting a massive blame on such a revered webpage who puts out guides for the community as a SERVICE is very disheartening to see. Have some class and respect for people going out of their way to offer help to the community. Sure no one is perfect but they are still the best around. Give them time fix their mistakes instead of offering such unsupportive feedback. Seeing all this entitlement makes me sick to my stomach. 

Thank you both for your posts. We really do appreciate it, because as you know, people are much more inclined to post the negative feedback than the positive one on the Internet, often forgetting that there are real people behind the guides. Fortunately, we've learned to develop something of a thick skin after years of running the website.

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11 hours ago, Blainie said:

I might be wrong here, but I believe CLC Ret can be made to work as an addon if you configure it. You could set custom rotations and priorities in WoD.

clcRet (and clcInfo) can only be configured to use abilities that it knows. All the new 7.0 abilities and talents won't work. And of course the whole Judgment debuff thing won't work either.

Since the author of those addons stopped playing in mid 2015 and hasn't even logged in with his Curse account since February 2016 I doubt that there will be an update.

You could add Hekili as an alternative. It isn't updated for 7.0 yet, but the author is working on it.

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I just reads the comments after sending damien items I thought needed to be updated and a few things I mentioned are what has been posted here so look for those updates to be coming soon. Thank you all again for your patience while we get the guide properly adjusted to reflect the changes in the game.

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Gratz on updating your informaion. I'm the guy that pointed out Justicar's Vengance. As I play classes and learn them I will be happy to alert you if any information is incorrect. 

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23 hours ago, Conquest said:

I just reads the comments after sending damien items I thought needed to be updated and a few things I mentioned are what has been posted here so look for those updates to be coming soon. Thank you all again for your patience while we get the guide properly adjusted to reflect the changes in the game.

Those updates haven now been in for a while, so the guide should be as up to date as it is before new developments/feedback :)

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I am reading through the guide and it just feels somewhat fragmented. What I mean is that if you start on the first page and actually read through it, you see the points that were updated and those that were not very clearly. Specific examples include on page 1, the "Significant 7.0.3 Changes" reads as before, but based on the comments provide and the changes to the talents and rotations page, this gives a false impression of the state of the class after the patch. 

A second example would be on the stat priority page. You updated haste under "1. Basics" to reflect the requirement for 30% haste, but the "2. Getting a better understanding" section was not updated at all with this. Unfortunately that would mean that you do not, in-fact, get a better understanding of the stats. 

The talents/rotation pages received significant updates, but the rest just feels fractured as far as being updated. I do love the guide and still/will have it book marked. 

Thumbs up for great work in the short amount of time you have had!

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If the situation presents itself, and you're at 4 Holy Power with only Blade of Wrath off CD, would you start Judge phase or wait for Crusader Strike to free up a charge, or even over-cap with a Blade cast? 

Ive been starting a judge phase, personally, in that situation.

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12 hours ago, PatrickHenry said:

If the situation presents itself, and you're at 4 Holy Power with only Blade of Wrath off CD, would you start Judge phase or wait for Crusader Strike to free up a charge, or even over-cap with a Blade cast? 

Ive been starting a judge phase, personally, in that situation.

If i correctly understand what you tried to say, then yes you start the judge phase.

So the rotation will be like assuming you have 4 holy powers with cs on cd which is 2.79 seconds

Judgement   >    ES(if you took it)/TV (1 holy power left)  >    boW ( this will put you back to 3 holy) > TV > Cs >CS> Judgement > boW > tv > Cs > cs> tv, and you keep going on.

and assuming you have 30% haste the uptime of the judge debuff and judgement cd will be equal, so its always better to use it on cd if you got the right amount of haste.

Edited by Farion

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I'm glad to see the guide updated. For the most part it's accurate now. Will change slightly at 110 with max artifact, but it's a very solid starting point for learning retribution.

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23 hours ago, Guest Solitarie said:

I am reading through the guide and it just feels somewhat fragmented. What I mean is that if you start on the first page and actually read through it, you see the points that were updated and those that were not very clearly. Specific examples include on page 1, the "Significant 7.0.3 Changes" reads as before, but based on the comments provide and the changes to the talents and rotations page, this gives a false impression of the state of the class after the patch. 

A second example would be on the stat priority page. You updated haste under "1. Basics" to reflect the requirement for 30% haste, but the "2. Getting a better understanding" section was not updated at all with this. Unfortunately that would mean that you do not, in-fact, get a better understanding of the stats. 

The talents/rotation pages received significant updates, but the rest just feels fractured as far as being updated. I do love the guide and still/will have it book marked. 

Thumbs up for great work in the short amount of time you have had!

I'm tweaking the Significant Changes section slightly (I realize it doesn't reflect the state of the class that clearly), but for the rest, I'm not sure what you mean. I rather prefer keeping the "Getting a Better Understanding" somewhat meta-neutral, instead just explaining what effect each of the stats has on the spec. If there was more to say about the 30% haste cap (maybe there will be), it might be in a 2.1 subsection.

Thanks for the comments :) 

2 hours ago, Guest Apox said:

I'm glad to see the guide updated. For the most part it's accurate now. Will change slightly at 110 with max artifact, but it's a very solid starting point for learning retribution.

Thank you for your comment, I really appreciate it.

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The biggest problem I see with this guide (and I am not a theorycrafter nor have I played my paladin seriously since WotLK is that Crusader Strike is listed as main part of the rotation.  It's not even part of the Retribution spec.  I started leveling (lvl 91) and thought - hey at least I can get used to the rotation, but the rotation is leaving me going .. "huh"? I have large points where i'm doing nothing, as everything is on CD.  Any tuning of that would be useful.

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We just got Solsacra to review the guide. He pointed out two minor things, so the guide is rock solid now.

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So glad you guys are on top of the changes as they're happening or better data comes in; it's awesome that we have such a wealth of knowledge to turn to.  Keep up the good work!

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After Elitistjerks fading i'm really glad to see a reliable source of information (and free aswell !) so i can improve. I took a break from the game and just came back with the pre-patch, so i really appreciate the time and effort your willing to take to give us detailed information about what's going on.

The last i want to ask for is, could you give us some general stat weights in numbers so i can fix my pawn values ? Because im not very experienced with simcraft and its kinda patchwerk and very personalized. I do understand the importance of the Haste cap of course, but i like just hovering over an item and get a short information if its better or not.

 

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First of all I want to say that I appreciate your work and that Icy-Veins is still my first Choice when I search for Rotations and Guides.

I had used the update version of the guide until I had a discussion on reddit. Someone pointed out that Judgement Debuff only affects Holy Power Spenders (now).

Seems like you changed the guide in some points to meet the new effect. But a big part of the Guide does not make sense anymore.

Why should I keep the Debuff up all the time during the fight, if most of my abilitys do not take advantage from it. You still recommend Haste as important Stat but only because of the Judgement Debuff. And in the Rotation you recommend to cast Judgement before Executioner Sentence AND to keep the buff up when Executioner Sentence hits. But why, when Executioner Sentence is not taking advantage of the Debuff?

Wouldn´t it make more sence to try to cast as many Final Verdict/Divine Storm in the time the Judgment Debuff is up instead of casting Judgment and wasting time casting spells which do not take advantage of the Debuff? 

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These are all the most up to date sims for ret (that I know of) each link is organized by the first tier talent. 
ES: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/1hrvg6bou5nn5qa/EScombo.html?dl=0

FV: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/b4iyyv8teqjh9m1/FVcombo.html?dl=0

Cons: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/6xloo0uwmnjlzez/Conscombo.html?dl=0

 

6 hours ago, Guest Elrigh said:

First of all I want to say that I appreciate your work and that Icy-Veins is still my first Choice when I search for Rotations and Guides.

I had used the update version of the guide until I had a discussion on reddit. Someone pointed out that Judgement Debuff only affects Holy Power Spenders (now).

Seems like you changed the guide in some points to meet the new effect. But a big part of the Guide does not make sense anymore.

Why should I keep the Debuff up all the time during the fight, if most of my abilitys do not take advantage from it. You still recommend Haste as important Stat but only because of the Judgement Debuff. And in the Rotation you recommend to cast Judgement before Executioner Sentence AND to keep the buff up when Executioner Sentence hits. But why, when Executioner Sentence is not taking advantage of the Debuff?

Wouldn´t it make more sence to try to cast as many Final Verdict/Divine Storm in the time the Judgment Debuff is up instead of casting Judgment and wasting time casting spells which do not take advantage of the Debuff? 

Execution Sentence now consumes HP so it will be affected by the judgment debuff. And if you take a look at the break down of damage on logs (https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/6dPVYC1fhRaxgZHQ#fight=5&type=damage-done&source=7) your top damage should always be your finishers unless the fights are faster than it could be skewed. The more haste you have, the more often you'll be doing extra finisher damage. It's how the class is built. I hope that answers your question, unless I misread it.

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On 7/23/2016 at 3:28 AM, Farion said:

If i correctly understand what you tried to say, then yes you start the judge phase.

So the rotation will be like assuming you have 4 holy powers with cs on cd which is 2.79 seconds

Judgement   >    ES(if you took it)/TV (1 holy power left)  >    boW ( this will put you back to 3 holy) > TV > Cs >CS> Judgement > boW > tv > Cs > cs> tv, and you keep going on.

and assuming you have 30% haste the uptime of the judge debuff and judgement cd will be equal, so its always better to use it on cd if you got the right amount of haste.

If we're not haste capped yet, since I'm still at about 18% from being 15% capped WoD...

What are your thoughts on the rotation if you're at 4HP and Judgement is still on CD, with the above situation? 

Let the autoattacks roll until Judgement is up or CS comes back up for the last HP?  Or over-run your HP with a BoW cast? 

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On 7/20/2016 at 6:31 PM, Guest AttackYeFace said:

5.1.1. Pooling Holy Power

You can have up to a maximum of 5 Holy Power at one time. However, no ability that consumes Holy Power can consume more than 3, which means that you do not need to dump your Holy Power as soon as it reaches 3 charges, and you can continue to use Holy Power-generating abilities at 3 charges.

UPDATE

Justicar's Vengance spends 5 holy power.

Please, update and fix.

I think their point is that with  JV is that you only use it when DP procs. So while you are technically correct, if you follow the guide then you would never use an ability that spends 5HP.

The implication seems to be that there is no advantage to building to 5HP unless you are waiting for Judgement to come off CD. Is that correct?

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You might want to add something about attempting to use JV when the judgement debuff is up in addition to using it when DP is procced. It's not entirely necessary as you have a lot of other things going on, but it is important to note (I feel) that the damage is increased when judgement is used as it's a holy power spender. I was actually surprised to not read anything about that and had to do my own in game testing to make sure that it was affected by judgement.

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Under Food it says that Savage Feast etc. will give you a Haste buff. It won't, it gives you a Strength Mastery buff, unless there is some way to change your "attuned stat".

 

 

Edited by Ffont
Strength->Mastery (was an error)

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There´s one thing left I would mention for maximising your dps outside of boss fights.

The fist of justice (Tier 3 Level 45) talent increases your performance of justicars vengeance. You can stun your target more often, so the damage of jv always doubles. Very usefull in pvp either.

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