demonardvark

7.1.5 BOS FAQ Sheet 2.0 (7.2 info added, not complete)

Sign in to follow this  

16 posts in this topic

7.1.5 Breath of Sindragosa FAQ Sheet

Written by: Demonardvark with lots of help from Drtain, Browed, Shells. 

Special thanks for icy community: We do it for you :)

7.2 notes. Once a few more things fall into place i plan to correct this for 7.2. Now, there is not that much changing necessarily with things in 7.2. The big change now is that instead of Freezing Fog Icon Freezing Fog you will want Horn of Winter Icon Horn of Winter. Also recommend gear will change. It currently appears the best set up will be to wear the Tier 19 4 set with the Tier 20 2 set and to have the COF trinket off of Elisande. The best legendaries are for bos are are Seal of Necrofantasia Icon Seal of Necrofantasia paired with either Toravon's Whiteout Bindings Icon Toravon's Whiteout Bindings  or Koltira's Newfound Will Icon Koltira's Newfound Will . . Breath lengths will stay around the same oddly enough. The goal isn't one super long breath merely to have multiple effective breaths. 

Sindragosa wow head.png

*photo from wow wikia*

Introduction:

So in lieu of the common playfulness I put into thing I'm instead going to jump straight into things here. The first and most for most thing to understand is what this document is. This is not a rotation guide for the breath of sindragosa playstyle. There are several sources out there that dictate the general "rotation" associated with it. Hyperion youtube has a good video which I will link last in a resource section (there are many good ones out there, hazzeds as well). In addition the guide here on Icy by Totemlord is very very well done. So, what is this document for?

This is to address the most common questions and misunderstandings about the playstyle that have been asked in the icy forums of late. There are some misconceptions that are somewhat prevalent and from there many similar questions. So, this document aims to be an aggregate answer and provide resources/answers. Thus, I deemed the term FAQ Sheet more appropriate than guide. Let's move on.

Which BOS are we using?

Now this may seem like an odd question to ask; which Breath of Sindragosa Icon Breath of Sindragosa are we using? Well, let's do something. If you are in the most current patch of wow it should read 7.1.5. At the log in screen it should say World of Warcraft Legion. The raids that are currently in raid finder, should be Emerald  Nightmare, Trial of Valor, and The Nighthold. You likely have an artifact weapon. The point here being is that we are no longer in warlords of draenor

This may seem obvious to everyone, however, many are still in a warlords mindset. The ability we have now called breath of sindragosa existed in the last expansion. However, it functions very differently. I won't argue history here, but from a dps perspective breath of sindragosa's prime was in Hellfire Citadel in WoD. The reason for this was the legendary ring. Breath of Sindragosa Icon Breath of Sindragosa had amazing synergy with the legendary ring. In addition however, it was one of the most complex rotations DK's have seen in their existance. Breath of Sindragosa Icon Breath of Sindragosa was stat dependent, gear dependent, and even raid group dependent. If you weren't killing bosses in X mins your overall dps would turn to garbage. The Breath of Sindragosa Icon Breath of Sindragosa in WoD was a challenging and unforgiving rotation. A single mistake and your damage was crippled. If you couldn't keep it up for 2 minutes straight you had no business using it. 

That. Was. Last. Expansion.

The new legion Breath of Sindragosa Icon Breath of Sindragosa ability is much more forgiving. In addition with changes to talents its much easier to use in comparison. The things you need to use it as well are reduced considerably. Previously you would need; 30% multi strike, Legendary ring, Vial of convulsive shadows (not mandatory but helpful), at least 2 minute up time, ams soaking mastery to start with. Now what do you need? A max level dk and the proper talent set up (which has room for alteration as well). That's it.

The point here, is anyone can use Breath of Sindragosa Icon Breath of Sindragosa and use it effectively. You don't need BIS everything, tier, legendaries (they help thought, discussion further on). The big question is always time. Breath of Sindragosa Icon Breath of Sindragosa is incredibly powerful to the point where you don't need 2 minutes straight of uptime for it to be worth using. We will cover the details here shortly on that.

The TL;DR of this section is. Frost Breath of Sindragosa Icon Breath of Sindragosa is very different now, very powerful, and comparatively much easier to use. Should you as a Frost DK use Breath of Sindragosa Icon Breath of Sindragosa . Well its your game play as you want but the heavy suggestion is yes. There is no reason not to. It's super strong with a default character and only gets stronger as you collect certain things. 

How long should my BOS be up?

Of all the questions, this is the most pertinent one. Now, in general when using Breath of Sindragosa Icon Breath of Sindragosa its assumed you will be using the cookie cutter talent set up you can find on the formal guide on this site (link below). As such your Empower Rune Weapon Icon Empower Rune Weapon  ability will be changed to Hungering Rune Weapon Icon Hungering Rune Weapon or HRW. So how long should your Breath of Sindragosa Icon Breath of Sindragosa be up for? This is dependent on your gear specifically do you have tier, do you have specific legendary items. The basics go down like this.

  • No Legendary items or tier and HRW is on cool down: Min 30 seconds
  • No legendary items or tier and HRW is off cool down: Min 60 seconds
  • Full tier 19 set and no legendary. Some options here but at least 1 min 15 seconds. 
  • Koltira's Newfound Will Icon Koltira's Newfound Will or  Seal of Necrofantasia Icon Seal of Necrofantasia . With just the belt around 1 minutes 20-30 seconds, with the ring, you can potentially get quite a bit higher because of two charges HRW. If in possession of both times over 2 minutes are certainly very possible.
  • Full tier 19 set, with legendary- This is the absolute optimal set up, assuming patchwork fight this is where you will see super long breaths. 

Now these are just general times. You may or may not hit them but these are good guidelines to get you started off. Are longer breaths better? Well yes that should be your aim. However, if you are hitting these general marks you are doing good. We can aim to improve, but 30 seconds without HRW and one minute with are your basic checkpoints. With basic keyboard face rolling you should be able to hit these well enough. 

Gear, talents, gameplay changes:

Now, extending Breath of Sindragosa Icon Breath of Sindragosa duration should be one of the major things a Frost DK should be looking to improve upon. It's not the only thing however. If looking at Totemlord's guide we notice that Gathering Storm Icon Gathering Storm  is recommended for the Breath of Sindragosa Icon Breath of Sindragosa build instead of Runic Attenuation Icon Runic Attenuation , why? Shouldn't RA be selected to fuelBreath of Sindragosa Icon Breath of Sindragosa ? The answer is no, because the amount of runic power it generates compared to what we need is trivial. On top of this Gathering Storm Icon Gathering Storm  has amazing synergy with Breath of Sindragosa Icon Breath of Sindragosa . During Breath of Sindragosa Icon Breath of Sindragosa you will be burning runes constantly to fuel the attack, Gathering Storm Icon Gathering Storm  makes Remorseless Winter Icon Remorseless Winter grow stronger and last longer the more runes you spend during its duration. The partner ship here is clear.

It's worth nothing. A poster on MMO champion (whose name I have forgotten, i'm sorry, if somehow you see this document let me know and I can give you due credit here) suggested that the rotation be referred to as " Storm Breath" rotation. This did not catch on for whatever reason but I think its almost a better name because it points out the importance of Gathering Storm Icon Gathering Storm .

So, while using Breath of Sindragosa Icon Breath of Sindragosa a general goal is to pop Remorseless Winter Icon Remorseless Winter before you start burning runes. This is a very strong dps gain. You don't want to delay too long and run out of runic power, but delaying a couple GCDs to ensure you can power it up, can lead to large dps gains. Do not necessarily think that you will always hit max stacks of Remorseless Winter Icon Remorseless Winter. The two guaranteed times are during HRW and lust. Outside of those times, seeking higher stacks is good but don't fret if you don't always max out. 

Now, the cookie cutter build calls out  Horn of Winter Icon Horn of Winter. This ability helps you extend your breaths by providing some runes and a bit of runic power ( 2 runes 20 runic power). This helps you extend your breaths. However, depending on your gear you may want to drop that talent in favor of  Freezing Fog Icon Freezing Fog Freezing Fog Icon Freezing Fog  increased the damage of your howling blast and frost fever by 30%. So what conditions do you take  Freezing Fog Icon Freezing Fog  over Horn of Winter Icon Horn of Winter?

  • Do you have   Perseverance of the Ebon Martyr Icon Perseverance of the Ebon Martyr ?
  • Do you have the complete tier 19 set bonus?
  • Do you have the tier 19 2 set bonus and are comfy with BOS rotation?

If so then switch to Freezing Fog Icon Freezing Fog . It may make your breaths shorter or make it more stressful but you can pull out a lot more damage with it. Also, with the 4 set bonus your  Rime Icon Rime  powered  Howling Blast Icon Howling Blast generate runic power. This helps offset the loss of Horn of Winter Icon Horn of Winter. Now it is possible to simply keep both the gear and Horn of Winter Icon Horn of Winter and have super long breaths, however, you can squeeze more dps out of the spec then simply extending breath duration.

In addition, while AMS soaking is no longer a major mandatory component of breath gameplay it can certainly help. So during breath it can behoove one to use  Anti-Magic Shell Icon Anti-Magic Shell on cooldown for additional RP (unless saving it for a specific boss mechanic, your dps doesn't matter if you are dead).

Another aspect to consider is relic choice (full credit to this section to Browed)

So longer breaths are good. However, if comfortably within breath duration windows, it does behoove one to look to get even more dps out of the rotation. Again, you don't need 2-3 minute long breaths to make it worth using and even then potentially shortening breaths to empower other abilities can lead to very large dps gains. In fact looking at warcraft logs, the top parses are dominated by those taking overall higher damage builds versus longer breath builds (not going to get into log debates atm, all data tools have strengths and weaknesses). 

Common Mistakes and corrections:

So People very frequently post logs looking for help. Not surprisingly we see a lot of the same mistakes happening and aim to address those here.

1. Breath/rotation being interrupted by boss:

One of the more common and basic things for newer players is that the breath gets interrupted by the boss. Now, the first and most basic answer to this is to tell people to study the fights, however, there are times where you just get hit by mechanics and can't help it. The simplest way to avert this mistake is with an addon. Deadly Boss Mods (DBM) gives you timers that dictate what ability the boss is going to use and when its going to use it. This lets you know when to expect attacks that can interrupt your breath. Some like Guldans bonds are just RNG and you can't help it. DBM however, is an amazing tool that really helps in this case. A link will be provided in the resource section below. I do not recommend a lot of add ons such as weak auras and such, but when trying to improve on breath its easy to get tunnel vision and get nuked by mechanics, DBM is a basic recommendation.

2. Overcapping/ Wasting Resources:

We have a maximum amount of runic power we can hold. While breath does drain our runic power at a fast rate we can in many instances (especially with tier or legendary items) over generate resources. While breath is up you don't have to be as frantic about smashing buttons as one would have been last expansion. The only time where you should really faceroll the keyboard and abuse your obliterate key is during Hungering Rune Weapon Icon Hungering Rune Weapon. During Hungering Rune Weapon Icon Hungering Rune Weapon you will be generating resources so quickly that you cannot spend them. During this time its okay to button mash to burn runes and empower RW because there is so much runic power and runes being generated. Outside of Hungering Rune Weapon Icon Hungering Rune Weapon one must monitor their runic power and make sure to not overcap this can lead to much longer breaths. Patience is a virtue.

In addition one must be sure not to utilize Hungering Rune Weapon Icon Hungering Rune Weapon during lust/heroism. There is strong temptation to blow all resources at once, this is folly. You will overgenerate so many resources that you cannot spend them and it is wasted. The proper thing to do is utilize BOS normally during lust and right when lust is about to expire (around expiration point, rng will determine where you rp and runes are) pop Hungering Rune Weapon Icon Hungering Rune Weapon to continue your breath phase longer. 

3. Wasting procs/ forgetting abilities:

Another thing we see is people wasting procs or forgetting to use abilities. With the 4 set Rime Icon Rime Howling Blast Icon Howling Blast generate runic power to fuel your breath. Thus, casting it on CD is highly recommended / mandatory as long as you don't overcap your rp (you did read the last section right?).  Another one is we see people using HoW and forgetting to utilize it. Horn of Winter Icon Horn of Winter is a nice fail safe button if newer to the rotation but its also a great resource generator. It's somewhat common to see people neglecting it. Again, the new breath isn't as unforgiving as old breath so there is no need to get super worked up when using it. Much of the gameplay is using the right abilities at the right time and in their haste people forget to use a lot of their resources. 

Conclusion:

So this was a general document to try and address the majority of questions we've had about BOS on the icy boards of late. We tried really hard not to be redundant with information that pre-exists, the goal wasn't to try and write another guide. This is still a fluid document that will be updated with things over time. One big part is logs, we have many good logs that we use for comparisons and are currently seeking permissions to display them for reference. In addition (a little bit more challenging) are some logs with room for improvement that show common mistakes (people less willing to give permissions here, understandable). 

Resources and helpful stuff:

Totemlords Icy Guide: http://www.icy-veins.com/wow/frost-death-knight-pve-dps-rotation-cooldowns-abilities

Hyperions Breath Guide: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=diFtZoFdDJw

Deadly Boss mods addon: https://mods.curse.com/addons/wow/deadly-boss-mods

 

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

First post taken and reserved for updates and or other needs.

Again this is to be an icy resource to answer the common questions we see about BOS on the forums. All points were derived from questions posed to us. Any questions or things you feel need to be added let me or Drtain know. As time goes on and we get permission from people we will include logs to showcase various things ie this log had good breath time, this log had the best CD usage, what have you. There are certain things that will be omitted such as stat priorities for example, these are already in existing guides here and other sources, the goal is to fill in gaps and address the most common questions we get at once :)

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 hours ago, Nerphus said:

Awesome stuff, I'd recommend throwing this in there

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1efg3uitY4HDHjnBtUckq5RPJ1XyyZIzVbt52otMa8Uc/htmlview?sle=true#

 

Also I'm curious about stat breakpoints as far as crit/haste and is stacking mastery becoming more beneficial because the majority of our damage is bos/rime procs

I'll talk to Drtain about including said document. It's a marvelous resource from the discord people and while we ourselves don't want in the FAQ sheet to fart around with stat priorities and trinket sims, having that document in place would certainly be a nice addition. Might add itl

As far as stat breakpoints the default guide here on mmo starts with crit to 25% and haste to 20%. Now in various forums i've seen recommendations of haste going as far as 30%. Then the values of increasing crit versus mastery. It's a big muddled mess that heavily depends on your personal gear. So for this FAQ sheets purpose, the initial answer is to defer to totems formal guide here as a starting point, for more min maxing the dk discord or mmo is the place to go.

Again trying to fill in gaps from common questions, not necessarily re-do a full guide. 

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

For taking Freezing Fog as a talent, is the Legendary Head mandatory, or can any of those 3 be yes?

Great write up on BoS this helped me clarify some points that I had seen discussed throughout my research.  Having it in one place definitely made it much easier to understand. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, Malicyn said:

For taking Freezing Fog as a talent, is the Legendary Head mandatory, or can any of those 3 be yes?

Great write up on BoS this helped me clarify some points that I had seen discussed throughout my research.  Having it in one place definitely made it much easier to understand. 

if any of the three are yes we recommend freezing fog, if you have the legendary helm its "mandatory" basically meaning its super highly recommended. that's just because simply right now with the tier 19 bonus you get more damage from the freezing fog + helm combo than you do from extending bos a little long with horn of winter. From there the tier bonuses have great synergy and buffs with freezing fog.

now come 7.2 that will change but i'll have an update for this guide :) (due to the tier 20 gear and helm nerf, so sad)

also you never "have" to take freezing fog its just at the moment the highest dps way to do things. if you feel your BOS isn't "good enough" or you struggle to keep it up without horn of winter then by all means take horn

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 hours ago, Dklegends said:

Why do you recommend horn of winter over freezing fog now?

In most scenarios yes. You would still take freezing fog with helm/tier 19 set in mythic plus dungeons. However, for raiding both in Nighthold and soon tomb the resource generation from horn is better in most cases. Now, if you have only the waist or ring and COF you may want to actually take freezing fog in that case. The question is what are your BOS uptimes? If you are doing solid 45-60 second breaths everytime with your gear and you don't need the resources then you could take freezing fog to eek out more deeps.

tldr

98% of the time Horn over Freezing fog. With good gear and mastery of BOS freezing fog could be a min max dps gain. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 4/3/2017 at 10:06 AM, demonardvark said:

In most scenarios yes. You would still take freezing fog with helm/tier 19 set in mythic plus dungeons. However, for raiding both in Nighthold and soon tomb the resource generation from horn is better in most cases. Now, if you have only the waist or ring and COF you may want to actually take freezing fog in that case. The question is what are your BOS uptimes? If you are doing solid 45-60 second breaths everytime with your gear and you don't need the resources then you could take freezing fog to eek out more deeps.

tldr

98% of the time Horn over Freezing fog. With good gear and mastery of BOS freezing fog could be a min max dps gain. 

Right now, my BoS uptime with ring/wrists and using one charge of HRW, I'm getting around 40 seconds. Two charges and I can usually hit a minute+ such that I can use PoF again. I have the 4 piece set and CoF. I also have the belt handy. What do you recommend in this situation, for a raiding that is.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Dklegends said:

Right now, my BoS uptime with ring/wrists and using one charge of HRW, I'm getting around 40 seconds. Two charges and I can usually hit a minute+ such that I can use PoF again. I have the 4 piece set and CoF. I also have the belt handy. What do you recommend in this situation, for a raiding that is.

your times look pretty good indeed. I think you have enough uptime to switch to freezing fog. the simplest thing to do is lfr a couple bosses default now then lfr a couple with freezing fog but with the uptimes you are getting you can likely squeeze a bit more juice out of freezing fog.

tldr try out freezing fog, if not better then switch back 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 4/6/2017 at 6:14 PM, demonardvark said:

your times look pretty good indeed. I think you have enough uptime to switch to freezing fog. the simplest thing to do is lfr a couple bosses default now then lfr a couple with freezing fog but with the uptimes you are getting you can likely squeeze a bit more juice out of freezing fog.

tldr try out freezing fog, if not better then switch back 

My mistake, I neglected to mention those were the up times with freezing fog already taken. Around 40 seconds plus with one charge of HRW, and a minute plus with 2 charges. If i'm super lucky, I can hit around 50 seconds with one charge and around a minute and a half with two charges.

Also have a question about the belt and wrists. I've had some other DKs tell me that belt will be better than wrists with T20 set bonus. Does this claim hold any ground? What are your thoughts on it?

As always, thank you for your replies.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Would you happen, to have any logs playing this way? A lot of things you say in the faq are complete opposite of what alot of the Top Dk's are saying and are directly saying the opposite of what has been proven in NH. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, Simdrome said:

Would you happen, to have any logs playing this way? A lot of things you say in the faq are complete opposite of what alot of the Top Dk's are saying and are directly saying the opposite of what has been proven in NH. 

This FAQ is outdated, there has been several item/stat changes since its release and it was also done when nighthold is rather new, haven't had the time to update it. The basic big implications that came since were helm nerf and the power of COF, so yes you are correct, BOS is played differently now versus 2 months ago. 

7.2 brought very little big changes, so i'm sitting idle really until we see what is fully going to happen post 7.2.5. once we are there and have new trinkets to play with as well as implications of the new tier versus the ability to partial sets of two tiers and all that I'll update it. The notes in red at the top gave the basic tldr of 7.2, drop freezing fog in most cases, top legendaries changed, shoot for longer breaths. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Vacivity said:

Freezing fog still beats horns of winter by a mile in all cases. 

yeah just addressed this in another post lol. There is a difference between being brief and concise and I realize in my rush to just type some things out at work I fell more into the brief category. For any sort of "competitive" player freezing fog does more damage because they have no issue maintaining BOS. Newer player to the spec, those with poor legendaries, or those who just don't have strong gear, will find more leg room and viability with horn of winter, to help them get going with BOS. Horn of winter is a good "general player" type talent while freezing fog is still the "pursuing leet deeps" talent. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

Sign in to follow this  

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.