Blainie

Blood Death Knight 8.0.1

41 posts in this topic

This thread is for comments about our Blood Death Knight guide for the Battle for Azeroth pre-patch.

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14 minutes ago, Guest scarmist said:

The Tier 3 Talent section has a link to Ossuary instead of Foul Bulwark

Will fix, thanks!

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10 hours ago, Guest NotaVampire said:

Could you explain a bit more why Consumption  is a bad talent?  

 

So, let's take the example of Consumption vs. a base-line Death Strike. My DK currently sits at 231 in Blood, with no stamina trinkets, meaning it has a fairly low HP pool of 50K. DS heals for a minimum of 7% maximum HP, meaning it heals for a minimum of 3,500 when used, completely unbuffed. Consumption currently heals me for just over 1K for each target hit. So, without any damage factored in and no buffs on DS, Consumption needs to hit 4 targets to heal me for as much as DS does, at the minimum.

If we now factor in the other talent on that line, Hemostasis, you will see at least an 8% buff to your DS, at most a 40% buff. This means that the number of targets moves even higher for Consumption to outheal DS, especially since with more targets, Hemostasis is easier to get to 5 stacks, meaning the full 40% buff.  On top of this, DS has an internal buff to its healing done based on the damage taken in the last 5 seconds. This means that, depending on the damage intake, DS could be healing me for 20-30% of my maximum HP before buffs from Hemostasis are even added to it. 

There just isn't a situation (with current numbers) where Consumption will overtake Hemostasis.

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51 minutes ago, Blainie said:

So, let's take the example of Consumption vs. a base-line Death Strike. My DK currently sits at 231 in Blood, with no stamina trinkets, meaning it has a fairly low HP pool of 50K. DS heals for a minimum of 7% maximum HP, meaning it heals for a minimum of 3,500 when used, completely unbuffed. Consumption currently heals me for just over 1K for each target hit. So, without any damage factored in and no buffs on DS, Consumption needs to hit 4 targets to heal me for as much as DS does, at the minimum.

If we now factor in the other talent on that line, Hemostasis, you will see at least an 8% buff to your DS, at most a 40% buff. This means that the number of targets moves even higher for Consumption to outheal DS, especially since with more targets, Hemostasis is easier to get to 5 stacks, meaning the full 40% buff.  On top of this, DS has an internal buff to its healing done based on the damage taken in the last 5 seconds. This means that, depending on the damage intake, DS could be healing me for 20-30% of my maximum HP before buffs from Hemostasis are even added to it. 

There just isn't a situation (with current numbers) where Consumption will overtake Hemostasis.

Well said. This seems like poor design/thinking on the designers' part. I have a feeling this will get tweaked to at least be comparable, because right now, it isn't even a question.

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To make my comments somewhat trustworthy, I've finished multiple m+10 dungeons on beta with Blood and Unholy DK.

Feedback to builds and talent section:

T56 - Heartbreaker is the best talent in M+ scenario, as it is the only talent, that benefits in AoE situation. As you often cannot spare the rune required for Blooddrinker, it presents a better choice, which boost self healing capabilities in AoE situations by a big margin

T90 - Voracious again, another talent that benefits greatly in M+ use. Blood DK brings pretty solid AoE damage through Blood Boil and Blood Plague (double dipping healing with Leech), which makes Voracious a good talent at 3+ targets, surpassing Bloodworms in healing. It requires a bit of micromanagement in pooling charges of Blood Boil as well as Death and Decay usage. The choice here is straightforward - Bloodworms in single target, Voracious in AoE.

T100 - Bonestorm citation - " and this ability should not be thought of as a defensive ability ", I have to disagree here, as Bonestorm makes you almost invincible due to incoming healing and if the damage taken in 1 second isn't fatal then Bonestorm heals you up quickly depending on number of enemies.

Rotation:

" You can have a maximum of 115 Runic Power. " - correction 125 Runic Power as Blood.

 

 

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14 hours ago, Guest Spiz said:

Well said. This seems like poor design/thinking on the designers' part. I have a feeling this will get tweaked to at least be comparable, because right now, it isn't even a question.

Yeah, unfortunately, it's like they didn't quite think about how to scale Consumption. Consumption should win on AoE, but then everything about DS makes it also better with AoE (damage taken scaling, easy blood boil hits, etc.) - I'd expect them to either tune the numbers on Consumption to make it baseline do damage, meaning more healing, or increase that %-healing on it. You'd need to bring it up to like 200% to make it at all competitive and, even then, with damage taken being a factor on DS, you'd still see points where DS wins in AoE. It's really badly thought out.

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Do others feel weak in comparison now (referenced against other tank specs)? I know Antorus is difficult in general, but I'm 5/11m on my DK (obtained before 8.0). I was tanking Antorus on Wednesday and swapped to my BM monk and had an easier time. My BM monk is 15-20ilv lower and has only done heroic a couple times (as a healer)... Putting all the nerfs to our talents, abilities, and loss of artifact traits aside, the numbers just don't feel right yet. Please correct me if I'm just being a noob.

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2 hours ago, Axonis said:

To make my comments somewhat trustworthy, I've finished multiple m+10 dungeons on beta with Blood and Unholy DK.

Does this mean your testing was done at 120? These are pre-patch guides. Nonetheless:

2 hours ago, Axonis said:

T56 - Heartbreaker is the best talent in M+ scenario, as it is the only talent, that benefits in AoE situation. As you often cannot spare the rune required for Blooddrinker, it presents a better choice, which boost self healing capabilities in AoE situations by a big margin

The maximum extra gain of Heartbreaker is 4 RP per cast, given that you hit 2 targets. This means that, in order to gain the benefit of a single Death Strike in terms of RP, you would need to cast Heart Strike 12 times, with every single one hitting both targets. When tanking a stacked Felhounds fight, I cast a Heart Strike (approximately) once every 3.8 seconds, with each one hitting both of them. With each cast giving me approximately 1.7-1.8K damage, this seems like a really, really weak talent compared to Blooddrinker.

I am getting a single Death Strike of RP every ~40 seconds, compared to using Blooddrinker every 30 seconds. Blood deals far, far more damage (average cast being 7k+), has a shorter cooldown than the time return on the RP of Heartbreaker and can be used while moving to greater effect. 

4 hours ago, Axonis said:

T90 - Voracious again, another talent that benefits greatly in M+ use. Blood DK brings pretty solid AoE damage through Blood Boil and Blood Plague (double dipping healing with Leech), which makes Voracious a good talent at 3+ targets, surpassing Bloodworms in healing. It requires a bit of micromanagement in pooling charges of Blood Boil as well as Death and Decay usage. The choice here is straightforward - Bloodworms in single target, Voracious in AoE.

T100 - Bonestorm citation - " and this ability should not be thought of as a defensive ability ", I have to disagree here, as Bonestorm makes you almost invincible due to incoming healing and if the damage taken in 1 second isn't fatal then Bonestorm heals you up quickly depending on number of enemies.

For these two, I'm going to ask Vol to comment/discuss, because I can't think of much else to put forward other than what is already said in the guide and, given that you are making the argument, I assume you don't agree with what is said there.

4 hours ago, Axonis said:

" You can have a maximum of 115 Runic Power. " - correction 125 Runic Power as Blood.

Will ask for that to be fixed, thanks!

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9 minutes ago, Blainie said:

Does this mean your testing was done at 120? These are pre-patch guides. 

Yes, I do, I hope, that guides will get updated for BfA soon, as it might not represent the best choices. Currently I don't actively play on live, so it might be different.

9 minutes ago, Blainie said:

The maximum extra gain of Heartbreaker is 4 RP per cast, given that you hit 2 targets. This means that, in order to gain the benefit of a single Death Strike in terms of RP, you would need to cast Heart Strike 12 times, with every single one hitting both targets. When tanking a stacked Felhounds fight, I cast a Heart Strike (approximately) once every 3.8 seconds, with each one hitting both of them. With each cast giving me approximately 1.7-1.8K damage, this seems like a really, really weak talent compared to Blooddrinker.

I am getting a single Death Strike of RP every ~40 seconds, compared to using Blooddrinker every 30 seconds. Blood deals far, far more damage (average cast being 7k+), has a shorter cooldown than the time return on the RP of Heartbreaker and can be used while moving to greater effect. 

You make a valid argument, but you're not considering an effect of Death and Decay, which makes you cleave up to 5 target, therefore making a single Heart Strike cast worth of 10 RP per cast in perfect scenario (real m+ scenario is usually 6+).  Also, Heartbreaker does not cost a rune compared to Blooddrinker, and as we know, lower levels of haste means less runes overall. Therefore the real benefit with Heartbreaker also considers start of the expansions, as stats are lower and also higher count of targets. Single target or even 2 target cleave is still worth to take Blooddrinker over Heartbreaker.

 

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15 minutes ago, Axonis said:

Yes, I do, I hope, that guides will get updated for BfA soon, as it might not represent the best choices. Currently I don't actively play on live, so it might be different.

The pre-patch guides are relevant for another 3-4 weeks, so there won't be any BfA updates until then. There's no point having anything BfA related here yet, since it's not live.

15 minutes ago, Axonis said:

You make a valid argument, but you're not considering an effect of Death and Decay, which makes you cleave up to 5 target, therefore making a single Heart Strike cast worth of 10 RP per cast in perfect scenario (real m+ scenario is usually 6+).  Also, Heartbreaker does not cost a rune compared to Blooddrinker, and as we know, lower levels of haste means less runes overall. Therefore the real benefit with Heartbreaker also considers start of the expansions, as stats are lower and also higher count of targets. Single target or even 2 target cleave is still worth to take Blooddrinker over Heartbreaker.

Ah. Knew I forgot something. 

I'll let Volstatsz clear this up then, but on the topic of expansion start, we're not at the start of an expansion. People are fully geared in top-tier gear. Antorus has been out for over a year now and, as I said before, this is not a beta guide. This guide should not be used to learn how to play on the beta. It is strictly here as a pre-patch guide. 

I won't go into further stuff on the analysis, just because I'd rather not forget something again, but I'm seeing almost all DKs still use Blooddrink on High Command and Eonar, the two most add-intensive fights. 

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10 hours ago, Axonis said:

To make my comments somewhat trustworthy, I've finished multiple m+10 dungeons on beta with Blood and Unholy DK.

Feedback to builds and talent section:

T56 - Heartbreaker is the best talent in M+ scenario, as it is the only talent, that benefits in AoE situation. As you often cannot spare the rune required for Blooddrinker, it presents a better choice, which boost self healing capabilities in AoE situations by a big margin

T90 - Voracious again, another talent that benefits greatly in M+ use. Blood DK brings pretty solid AoE damage through Blood Boil and Blood Plague (double dipping healing with Leech), which makes Voracious a good talent at 3+ targets, surpassing Bloodworms in healing. It requires a bit of micromanagement in pooling charges of Blood Boil as well as Death and Decay usage. The choice here is straightforward - Bloodworms in single target, Voracious in AoE.

T100 - Bonestorm citation - " and this ability should not be thought of as a defensive ability ", I have to disagree here, as Bonestorm makes you almost invincible due to incoming healing and if the damage taken in 1 second isn't fatal then Bonestorm heals you up quickly depending on number of enemies.

Rotation:

" You can have a maximum of 115 Runic Power. " - correction 125 Runic Power as Blood.

 

It's been demonstrated through logs analysis that even in the most add-intense M+ dungeons, the average targets struck by Heart Strike sits around 2 - 2.3.  You can check this yourself.  That 4ish extra RP on average per strike is comparable to the extra RP/min you get from Rune Strike just using it as filler, and so you get the same defensive benefits, without the added damage of the Rune Strike hits.  In most situations, including less trash-heavy M+, it's much worse.

"Pretty solid AoE damage" is only true when gauged against other players.  The particular weakness of Voracious is that it's a leech effect - the ratio between health pools and dps is *much* larger in pre-patch -> BfA than it was in Legion, which is a de facto nerf to leech effects. For clarity, none of the talents on this row are really significant as a defensive tool.  What makes Bloodworms the pick is the meaningful DPS increase it provides - around 5% on AoE fights, and as high as 12% on single target.

3% Max HP per second is nowhere even remotely close to invincibility on anything, even the weakest max-level content for which a tank is necessary.

The base maximum Runic Power for Blood is 115.  The extra 10 comes from Ossuary.  I agree that it can be confusing, however, and I'll be sure to clarify that section - thank you!

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I can't find any advice about runeforging

I have no idea if fallen crusader or stoneskin gargoyle would be better

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42 minutes ago, Guest BlackDoom said:

 

  1. Blood for Blood Icon Blood for Blood deals a trivial amount of damage to you in exchange for a 60% increase to Heart Strike Icon Heart Strikedamage over 12 seconds.

 

Pardon me, but how is 15% of total health a "trivial" amount of damage?

Because we're self-heal tanks; we'll gain that back with minimal effort.  As a reminder, these talents are suggested specifically for PvE content in mind; open-world enemies aren't going to do enough damage to you to make 15% max hp every 12 seconds a real concern.

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On 7/19/2018 at 8:24 PM, Blainie said:

So, let's take the example of Consumption vs. a base-line Death Strike. My DK currently sits at 231 in Blood, with no stamina trinkets, meaning it has a fairly low HP pool of 50K. DS heals for a minimum of 7% maximum HP, meaning it heals for a minimum of 3,500 when used, completely unbuffed. Consumption currently heals me for just over 1K for each target hit. So, without any damage factored in and no buffs on DS, Consumption needs to hit 4 targets to heal me for as much as DS does, at the minimum.

If we now factor in the other talent on that line, Hemostasis, you will see at least an 8% buff to your DS, at most a 40% buff. This means that the number of targets moves even higher for Consumption to outheal DS, especially since with more targets, Hemostasis is easier to get to 5 stacks, meaning the full 40% buff.  On top of this, DS has an internal buff to its healing done based on the damage taken in the last 5 seconds. This means that, depending on the damage intake, DS could be healing me for 20-30% of my maximum HP before buffs from Hemostasis are even added to it. 

There just isn't a situation (with current numbers) where Consumption will overtake Hemostasis.

it sounds like your comparing Death Strike to Consumption and Not Hemostasis.  I mean taking Consumption doesn't mean you can't use Death Strike. 

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Volstatz, can you comment the synergy between Tombstone and Bonestorm? Ive recently tested this in trash heavy 20 keys and it felt really powerful, but I should also mention that I have a very high haste level which contributes to generating the 100 rp quickly alot. The absorb from Tombstone also has a nice side effect of closing the vulnerabiliy gap when generating 100 rp. Would like to hear your thoughts on this, thanks

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On 7/24/2018 at 7:50 AM, Guest NotaVampire said:

it sounds like your comparing Death Strike to Consumption and Not Hemostasis.  I mean taking Consumption doesn't mean you can't use Death Strike. 

But what you can do in a given global is a choice between the two.  There's not really a situation where Consumption would be the meaningfully better choice over DS, in terms of mitigating damage, unless you've managed to completely resource-tap yourself - which, if you took Consumption, came about in part because you've had less effective Death Strikes.  From a mitigation standpoint, Hemostasis buffing your DS output is the clear winner in any moderately-challenging content.

In terms of damage output, the scenarios where Consumption would do more damage overall involve being able to get "perfect" Consumption uses, on cooldown, which isn't a plausible real-life scenario.

 

20 hours ago, Guest Atraxus said:

Volstatz, can you comment the synergy between Tombstone and Bonestorm? Ive recently tested this in trash heavy 20 keys and it felt really powerful, but I should also mention that I have a very high haste level which contributes to generating the 100 rp quickly alot. The absorb from Tombstone also has a nice side effect of closing the vulnerabiliy gap when generating 100 rp. Would like to hear your thoughts on this, thanks

I would think of it more as using Tombstone to cover down on the vulnerability caused by depleting RP with Bonestorm, which isn't an ideal use case for two separate talent rows.  Tombstone could have some narrow use cases, particularly in high M+, when you need more/more frequent defensive cooldowns to avoid one-shot scenarios; in that instance you wouldn't be taking Bonestorm, or using Tombstone in conjunction with it.  Ossuary would let you come out of Bonestorm with 25 RP, plus 1 Heart Strike puts you at 40, which with Ossuary would be a Death Strike, and you still have another 2-3 runes you'd otherwise needed to spend on Marrowrend to re-stack Bone Shield providing additional bonus RP.  More importantly, you'd have these benefits all the time, and not only when firing Bonestorm.

If someone told me that Blizzard had intended Bonestorm and Tombstone to synergize in this manner, I wouldn't be surprised; unfortunately, the opportunity cost doesn't justify taking a cooldown talent just to prop up the vulnerability created by a different talent.

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On 7/20/2018 at 12:07 PM, Blainie said:

Yeah, unfortunately, it's like they didn't quite think about how to scale Consumption. Consumption should win on AoE, but then everything about DS makes it also better with AoE (damage taken scaling, easy blood boil hits, etc.) - I'd expect them to either tune the numbers on Consumption to make it baseline do damage, meaning more healing, or increase that %-healing on it. You'd need to bring it up to like 200% to make it at all competitive and, even then, with damage taken being a factor on DS, you'd still see points where DS wins in AoE. It's really badly thought out.

Now I know it may be OP, but what if they made Consumption work off of DK Mastery where it also gives a percent of the heal as a physical damage absorption shield? It isn't like the shield lasts forever, but it would provide excellent temporary mitigation that scales with monster pack size.

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On 8/4/2018 at 6:01 PM, Guest Finalanswer-Malganis said:

Now I know it may be OP, but what if they made Consumption work off of DK Mastery where it also gives a percent of the heal as a physical damage absorption shield? It isn't like the shield lasts forever, but it would provide excellent temporary mitigation that scales with monster pack size.

They'd just need to give it a reason to be cast over a Hemo-DS, in some situation. Whether it's buffing if it only hits 1 target or more than 1, whatever it may be, it just needs to be given an edge in some kind of effect. Either that or a numbers rework.

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How can Will of Necro be batter compare to Rune tab In whatever situation ?

30% Dmg reduction vs 35% On DR that works only if you are under 35% HP . I cant see it close even if they nurf rune tab by more 10%

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15 hours ago, Guest Will of Necro ??? said:

How can Will of Necro be batter compare to Rune tab In whatever situation ?

30% Dmg reduction vs 35% On DR that works only if you are under 35% HP . I cant see it close even if they nurf rune tab by more 10%

Even if you're above 35% and a large hit takes you below that, the part of the hit that was below 35% has WotN applied to it. It works out very elegantly to a ~19% increase to effective health. It's passive, always available/applicable, and doesn't cost a rune.

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