Frost Mage 8.3

[Guest Michael]

I want to know what the differences I would experience or does it make a large enough impact on race; such as, Human, Blood elf, Draenie, or Pandaren?

Currently still figuring out the game, and it has been hard for me. I love mages, necromancers, and spellcasters in mainly. I have mostly been a Diablo 3 player, and it makes it hard to come to WoW. 

I have currently chosen a Draenie for a mage.  If you could help give me pointers on if any of the specialization, are going to be fun for a Diablo 3 player. Also Kuni is it really going to bad for a frost mage to do mythic raids or dungeon? If this helps understand my problem I am Michael#12735. I also want to include that I have tired WoW off and on during Warth of The Lich King (Level 20 highest level from level 1), Warlord of Dranor (level boosted two Wargens to level 90), and finally Legion was the final till; I was encouraged to go at it again. I keep on think Diablo and not WoW, and I am at a lost on how to enjoy the play style of WoW.

I have gone through YouTube, WoWhead, and now trying to reach out to Icy-veins for help. I get some of the mechanics, but for things like Haste or doing macros I still don't get. I am use to using Diablo 3 keyboard bindings a lot, but for WoW it is way to many to press.

I hope this helps you understand my problem.

 

Sincerely,

                     Michael S. 

 

[jinsu2301 273]

16 hours ago, Guest Michael said:

I want to know what the differences I would experience or does it make a large enough impact on race; such as, Human, Blood elf, Draenie, or Pandaren?

The DPS differences are gonna be in the <1% range. Blood Elfs are quite handy in M+ due to their purge racial ability, but unless you are going for world first or really high keys, racials are not that important.

16 hours ago, Guest Michael said:

I have currently chosen a Draenie for a mage.  If you could help give me pointers on if any of the specialization, are going to be fun for a Diablo 3 player. Also Kuni is it really going to bad for a frost mage to do mythic raids or dungeon?

Probably the closest you can get to a Diablo-esque playstyle would be with a Demon Hunter. While WoW and D3 share a lot of systems, the core mechanics are so fundamentally different that you won't even get close to D3 with any WoW caster class.

As to viability of Frost, it's fine. Yes, it's not top DPS but that doesn't matter on lower difficulties.

17 hours ago, Guest Michael said:

I get some of the mechanics, but for things like Haste or doing macros I still don't get. I am use to using Diablo 3 keyboard bindings a lot, but for WoW it is way to many to press.

If you are looking for a simpler, more action-oriented MMO, there are alternatives out there like Guild Wars 2.

[Farmbuyer 1]

A bug report and then a suggestion:

Typo/thinko on the rotations page, in the "core concepts" section.  The first paragraph ends with "There are 2 major concepts" but then goes into a numbered list of three concepts.

Something that I think might help but I don't know where best to suggest it (maybe under core concepts) is elaborating on the "[cast time spell] -> Flurry -> Ice Lance" sequence and explaining why that's the goal and what the player is supposed to be achieving.  There is already a really excellent writeup covering this concept -- the whole "get Winter's Chill from Flurry already applied by the time the powerful [cast time spell] finishes traveling and lands" idea -- but it's over on the (page 14) How To Improve page, in a section titled "Not Using Winter's Chill Properly".

Maybe it could be moved to, or referenced from, the core concepts section in the hopes that new players can start doing it correctly from the beginning, instead of having to go the "how do I unfuck my playstyle" page.  ?  Or perhaps the "core concepts" section could include a link to the (page 16) FAQ that goes into detail -- I know several people that won't read FAQs without prompting.  (Arguably, they are horrible people.)

Edited January 22, 2019 by Farmbuyer

[Kuni 28]

15 hours ago, Farmbuyer said:

A bug report and then a suggestion:

Typo/thinko on the rotations page, in the "core concepts" section.  The first paragraph ends with "There are 2 major concepts" but then goes into a numbered list of three concepts.

Something that I think might help but I don't know where best to suggest it (maybe under core concepts) is elaborating on the "[cast time spell] -> Flurry -> Ice Lance" sequence and explaining why that's the goal and what the player is supposed to be achieving.  There is already a really excellent writeup covering this concept -- the whole "get Winter's Chill from Flurry already applied by the time the powerful [cast time spell] finishes traveling and lands" idea -- but it's over on the (page 14) How To Improve page, in a section titled "Not Using Winter's Chill Properly".

Maybe it could be moved to, or referenced from, the core concepts section in the hopes that new players can start doing it correctly from the beginning, instead of having to go the "how do I unfuck my playstyle" page.  ?  Or perhaps the "core concepts" section could include a link to the (page 16) FAQ that goes into detail -- I know several people that won't read FAQs without prompting.  (Arguably, they are horrible people.)

Good find on that typo, thanks. Should be fixed on next page regen.

Also a great suggestion. I'll see if I can reword it so a link forwarding to the FAQ page fits. Re-reading that entire section of that page makes me want to reorganize it slightly as well. I'll get on that now and hopefully this'll also be fixed up for next regen. Thank you again for the feedback!

[Zadina 923]

Why does GS not shatter/crit sometimes even though I am standing far enough? Does Haste affect spell travel time or something? And since my internet has its ups and downs (mostly downs), can it be due to bad internet?

[Kuni 28]

22 hours ago, Zadina said:

Why does GS not shatter/crit sometimes even though I am standing far enough? Does Haste affect spell travel time or something? And since my internet has its ups and downs (mostly downs), can it be due to bad internet?

Unless your crit is crazy high, you're probably not at 33.34%. If not, Shatter will still be under 100% and not crit sometimes. That's just how it is, gaming Shatter is simply bettering your odds and average damage more than if you don't.

I'm personally hovering around 22%, which works out to 83% Shatter crits.

[Guest Lidin]

this guy is lies when he talks about stats... there is no 33.4% crit cap since 8.1 they changed shatter ... before 8.1 shatter multiplied crit with 1.5 and added 50% on top now shatter just adds 25% so you would need 50% to have 100% shatter crit.
in the changelog he sayshe reviewed it for 8.1 and there was no change necessary ... this is a lie so please icy veins tell him to do his job right.

[jinsu2301 273]

4 hours ago, Guest Lidin said:

this guy is lies when he talks about stats... there is no 33.4% crit cap since 8.1 they changed shatter

So, I justed tested this on my Mage alt that has 26.48% crit. Glacial Spike into Flurry critted 45 times out of 50, so 90%.

(26.48% x 1.5) + 50% = 89.72%. 

Maybe you should check your facts before you start calling people liars.

[Kuni 28]

Taken care of the above on Discord. Seems like a misunderstanding regarding how Shatter is split into two ranks, where the first is indeed +25%.

No changes needed though, max level Mages have +50%.

[Guest D3FT]

Guys, I don't get it. Should I cast Ice Lance right after Glacial Spike, when I'm hitting 2 targets with Glacial Spike (with Splitting Ice talent) WITHOUT Brain Freeze buff? There is no information about it. Or i didn't understand rotation right? Pls help. (bad english, sry)

[Kuni 28]

12 hours ago, Guest D3FT said:

Guys, I don't get it. Should I cast Ice Lance right after Glacial Spike, when I'm hitting 2 targets with Glacial Spike (with Splitting Ice talent) WITHOUT Brain Freeze buff? There is no information about it. Or i didn't understand rotation right? Pls help. (bad english, sry)

Only if the targets can be rooted, such as trash mobs. On most boss fights, no, as the Glacial Spike freeze effect will not apply.

[Josserhamon 0]

Not sure if it's not mentioned or I just didn't see it, but at what number of targets does it become worth it to cast blizzard over frostbolt (or at all)? Two, three, five?

[Kuni 28]

On 5/16/2019 at 9:53 PM, Josserhamon said:

Not sure if it's not mentioned or I just didn't see it, but at what number of targets does it become worth it to cast blizzard over frostbolt (or at all)? Two, three, five?

Good catch. I'll fix that up, since the standard AoE list kicks in at 5.

So the actual answer is at 3+ it takes priority over Ice Lance, at 2 it's filler just above Frostbolt.

ETA: It is actually already in the guide, there's a cleave checkbox on the rotation page that shows where and at what target levels Blizzard is cast at.

[Vyro 1]

Hey Kuni and fellow Mages,

 

for 8.2 i thought i give BfA another Shot and prepared for the new Raid. Because we lack ranges this time on my mage.

So I read this guide and checked on it for updates several times.

A few questions popped up for me after our first normal raid yesterday and the latest update to the guide. 

I hope a more experienced player like you (or another member of the mage community) can help me with them.

 

My first question is about one of the Benthic Items. Vims Scalecrusher Belt

For me this simulates higher on raidbots „Droptimizer“ than the one you linked, which provides damages to Aberrations.

Do you think the dmg-gain outweighs the downside with the enhanced Aggro?

I am a bit scared of skittish weeks in m+.

Is that the reason why you didn’t list it ?

 

The next one is about the „Eternal Palast build suggestion“.

So far it looks a lot like copy&paste for every boss...

On most Bosses I could not see the point of taking Splitting Ice so I went  Comet Storm but that might  just be because i lack some knowledge .

I guess it’s just a placeholder but I would like to be sure about it. 

Will you update it soon ? Or do I miss something ?

 

The last one is about the Trinket from the First Boss: Shiver Venom Relic

I call myself pretty lucky and got a 435 Titanforged one in our Normalrun with my Bonusroll.

What i am not so sure of, is the usage on Single-Target fights and I have no idea how to simulate it.

I would like to know what is the best use.

-keep stacks on 5 ,don’t use it.

-use it with 5 stacks

-use it in Cooldown no matter how many stacks (like >3)

-something totally different I didn’t think of

 

Thank you, I appreciate your help.

Edited July 12, 2019 by Vyro
Links didn’t work //wrong size of letters

[Kuni 28]

8 hours ago, Vyro said:

My first question is about one of the Benthic Items. Vims Scalecrusher Belt

For me this simulates higher on raidbots „Droptimizer“ than the one you linked, which provides damages to Aberrations.

Do you think the dmg-gain outweighs the downside with the enhanced Aggro?

I am a bit scared of skittish weeks in m+.

Is that the reason why you didn’t list it ?

 

The next one is about the „Eternal Palast build suggestion“.

So far it looks a lot like copy&paste for every boss...

On most Bosses I could not see the point of taking Splitting Ice so I went  Comet Storm but that might  just be because i lack some knowledge .

I guess it’s just a placeholder but I would like to be sure about it. 

Will you update it soon ? Or do I miss something ?

 

The last one is about the Trinket from the First Boss: Shiver Venom Relic

I call myself pretty lucky and got a 435 Titanforged one in our Normalrun with my Bonusroll.

What i am not so sure of, is the usage on Single-Target fights and I have no idea how to simulate it.

I would like to know what is the best use.

-keep stacks on 5 ,don’t use it.

-use it with 5 stacks

-use it in Cooldown no matter how many stacks (like >3)

-something totally different I didn’t think of

 

Thank you, I appreciate your help.

Honestly, that belt not included was an oversight. It's technically not BiS like the other Benthic items listed are. The Mage community ran sims for all various pieces of gear, and the resultant profile didn't use the belt, and I based my suggestions off the results of that. Rerunning it myself, it seems that it's only 0.3% behind the Mythic raid belt, and would likely overtake with a socket.

So thank you for bringing that to my attention,  I'll fix that up right away. As to Skittish, it isn't enabled in non-Nazjatar zones, so it shouldn't matter for Mythic+. And that's another thing I should likely make a note for, those Benthic bonus effects don't work in Mythic+.

 

TEP suggestions are all placeholders, yes. I will be updating during the Mythic week if all goes well. I'm actually between guilds since mine died just recently, so the updates to even basic tips have been slower than I would like.

There is a very high chance that "no Ice Lance" becomes the default build in TEP, however, and Splitting Ice's Icicle damage contribution outweighs Comet Storm on single target. How Flash Freeze actually works with Glacial Spike isn't any sensible method: FF trait damage*(1+5*(icicle coeff/GS coeff)). So Splitting Ice adding 5% to the Icicle coeff means you're adding a disproportionate amount of damage compared to Comet Storm, or any sane method of calculating Flash Freeze. Which is also why the Glacial Spike nerf was actually a buff. And no, I really, really, don't know why it was coded like that.

 

The sim is set up to use it on cooldown. I haven't looked into oddities regarding it due to that being a fair bit of APL gen that I'm honestly not all that great at anymore. Given the damage values on it, the on-use always beats the DoT effect, and it should be stacked back up to 5 by the time the cooldown is up, since the primary is 10 RPPM and you will never have a point where the DoT is about to fall off. Given the on use is always 66% better than the DoT of the same stack, as long as you're not clipping a use of the trinket at the end of the fight by waiting at the beginning, you should be more or less safe to use anywhere there's a stack you can consume.

In practical use, make sure you hit the on use effect when a secondary target is within 8 yards of the primary, because that'll boost the value by a dramatic amount. Other than that, both effects combined are worth about 2k DPS. Optimizing the first hit of that isn't going to change much in the grand scheme of things.

[Vyro 1]

First of all i want to thank you for your quick reply and all tips in the Post ?

On 7/12/2019 at 9:07 PM, Kuni said:

 And that's another thing I should likely make a note for, those Benthic bonus effects don't work in Mythic+.

 

i am a big dummy...i even linked the item and failed to think of that. 

On 7/12/2019 at 9:07 PM, Kuni said:

 

There is a very high chance that "no Ice Lance" becomes the default build in TEP, however, and Splitting Ice's Icicle damage contribution outweighs Comet Storm on single target. How Flash Freeze actually works with Glacial Spike isn't any sensible method: FF trait damage*(1+5*(icicle coeff/GS coeff)). So Splitting Ice adding 5% to the Icicle coeff means you're adding a disproportionate amount of damage compared to Comet Storm, or any sane method of calculating Flash Freeze. Which is also why the Glacial Spike nerf was actually a buff. And no, I really, really, don't know why it was coded like that.

 

 

Unlike Legion's Double Ice Lance,  i dont really like the idea of that playstyle. I guess reason for that is that dont really understand how to make it work.

Do you Entchant and Gem into Mastery ? What happens with lets say fights like Orgozoa or any fights in which Adds get spawned in regular. Do you still not use any Ice Lance then.

Quote

As should be expected, this build only works on raw single target. In cleave scenarios,  Ice Lance is ridiculously valuable for the extra 80% damage to a second target through  Splitting Ice.

so if this sentence is still true after the buff/nerf of Glacial Spike how do i behave on Bosses like that ? do you carry a extra set of gear for them ? do you not use and lances till they spawn and then you use them ?  how do you handle m+ runs. I am very confused ? 

[Kuni 28]

37 minutes ago, Vyro said:

Do you Entchant and Gem into Mastery ? What happens with lets say fights like Orgozoa or any fights in which Adds get spawned in regular. Do you still not use any Ice Lance then.

so if this sentence is still true after the buff/nerf of Glacial Spike how do i behave on Bosses like that ? do you carry a extra set of gear for them ? do you not use and lances till they spawn and then you use them ?  how do you handle m+ runs. I am very confused ? 

Yes, you go full out Mastery. If there is a target in cleave range, you would use Ice Lance when Fingers of Frost procs. However, depending on how often the adds are up, this might not be a good fight to utilize no Ice Lance in general, and may be better suited for default Frost or the Frozen Orb build instead. A lot of this will be figured out as strategies emerge, and I actually get into the raid. If you don't want to change gear between them, cleaving Fingers of Frost Ice Lances is absolutely fine, your add damage will just be somewhat lower than it could be.

I'm working on an update to no Ice Lance rotation section, but was holding off on it in the hopes that Blizz nukes the build from orbit on Mythic week. Sorry this information isn't currently in the guide.

[Vyro 1]

thanks again that helps me a lot and eases my mind ?

They should remove it in my opinion, that cant be intended.

[Kuni 28]

6 minutes ago, Vyro said:

thanks again that helps me a lot and eases my mind ?

They should remove it in my opinion, that cant be intended.

No problem.

And they will, it's just a matter of when. The Mythic tuning is the perfect time.

[VirgilvanDijk 3]

Im really not digging this no ice lance 'build'. Ice lance is a trademark skill that should be in rotation. Do you think this change/blunder is by design or did the devs overlook the viability of this monstrosity?

[Kuni 28]

4 hours ago, VirgilvanDijk said:

Im really not digging this no ice lance 'build'. Ice lance is a trademark skill that should be in rotation. Do you think this change/blunder is by design or did the devs overlook the viability of this monstrosity?

It's an oversight that we've warned them about for months. Same happened in Legion, although it was addressed quicker and the 7.2 Artifact traits pushed against it.

As said above, it's mostly due to the oddity of how Flash Freeze applies its bonus to Glacial Spike. I would expect it to be fixed, but the question becomes what happens to our Azerite traits and overall viability. If nothing else changes, Frozen Orb becomes the go-to for all scenarios, and I believe Blizzard doesn't want that to happen either, since they've historically pushed against Blizzard in the single target rotation. How do you buff Ice Lance when we have an entire sub-build focused on Ice Lance damage that will take over by default when no Ice Lance is fixed?

I really don't envy their position. We've given them the answer, sadly it's expansion-level changes.

[Vyro 1]

So after obtaining my last Flash Freeze trait i went all in on the No Ice Lance Build. I have to say it’s way more fun then I thought it would be. Hitting with 240-300k  Glacial Spikes is pretty nice ? 

If it’s a single target Boss the lead is mine....if there is no crazy long execute phase and the fury’s go crazy. 

What I am not entirely sure of is how I should handle cleave. 

Let’s take Azshara first Phase for example :

the 2 Nagas in Love get pulled and want to be together. Right now I use all my cleaving stuff, like Full shatter combo (Glacial Spike -> Flurry -> Ice Lance) + I use my Fingers of Frost Proccs  from my Orb as long as they are together or close to the spawning add.

When they start planning there divorce and get pulled line of sight to each other I continue with not using any Ice Lance and just use the proccs if I have to move a longer distance, like recharging a rune or if I get targeted by the spear. 

——-

Is doing the full shatter combo here a mistake ? Would it be better to:

Glacial Spike -> Flurry -> Frostbolt 5x ->..

Or should I even stop fishing for Flurryproccs and just use every Glacial Spike I get since it splits anyway with Splitting Ice.

or should I keep doing what I do.

What is the most valuable thing to do? 

 

 

 

[Kuni 28]

9 hours ago, Vyro said:

What is the most valuable thing to do?

So interestingly enough, we actually went and re-tested all the cleave scenarios. Using the T24 Mythic profile, there's less than 1% difference for 2 target cleave between:

1. Don't even use FoF, hold GS for BF proc;
2. Don't even use FoF, GS immediately;
3. FoF on cleave, hold GS for BF;
4. FoF on cleave, GS immediately.

These are listed in order of DPS, so the top for 2 target is actually just take Ice Lance off your bars, unless you need to cast something while moving and you're out of Shimmer/Floes charges. Rather silly, but that Mastery buff was ridiculously strong.

There's also a strong indication that gaming Incanter's Flow stacks is potentially worth it now, which is slightly annoying. By which I mean, casting GS with no BF is worth if it will impact the target at 5 stacks. On the one hand this is a sort of hard cap to how long you can go without a BF proc and will cast more GSes during cleave, but on the other it's a gamestyle that none of us are used to, and will require buff tracking of some nature. Also given that Frost's damage is calculated on impact rather than cast, this timing will be variable, and entirely dependent on both Haste and distance to the target. This is due to the fact that you are casting, as you said, 300k GSes, compared to the pittance everything else in the toolkit hits for.

 

I should have a guide update soon, but the planned updates have taken a back seat to a family emergency.

[Vyro 1]

4 hours ago, Kuni said:

 

I should have a guide update soon, but the planned updates have taken a back seat to a family emergency.

thank you once again and good luck with that !

[Guest Wrath]

On 7/25/2019 at 10:58 AM, Kuni said:

There's also a strong indication that gaming Incanter's Flow stacks is potentially worth it now, which is slightly annoying. By which I mean, casting GS with no BF is worth if it will impact the target at 5 stacks. On the one hand this is a sort of hard cap to how long you can go without a BF proc and will cast more GSes during cleave, but on the other it's a gamestyle that none of us are used to, and will require buff tracking of some nature. Also given that Frost's damage is calculated on impact rather than cast, this timing will be variable, and entirely dependent on both Haste and distance to the target. This is due to the fact that you are casting, as you said, 300k GSes, compared to the pittance everything else in the toolkit hits for.

I spent about an hour on the target dummy after putting together a weakaura for this. I found that at max range, I needed to begin my GS cast at 2 stacks (ticking upwards) of Incanter's in order for it to impact the target at 5 stacks. It's very hard to get right, but maybe with practice.