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Niix

In Depth Pre-Expansion Hunter Guide. (All Specs)

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Yep, sorry. On afterthought, this is the thread where people come for latest advice on raiding as hunters, and we went and turned it in our little playground. I don't think there's much harm to occasional holy war, but it should not have taken place here. In all honesty, you should go ahead and delete our argument, Niix, it's not like there's any value to it. 

Edited by Iridar
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Yep, sorry. On afterthought, this is the thread where come for latest advice on raiding as hunters, and we went and turned it in our little playground. I don't think there's much harm to occasional holy war, but it should have taken place here. In all honesty, you should go ahead and delete our argument, Niix, it's not like there's any value to it. 

 

No objection here, it was much silliness

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So I got questions about MM single target priority list with TotH and GT:

  1. Do I use GT when target is >80% HP / when I have Rapid Fire up?
  2. Do I use GT when I have TotH proc and I can cast Aimed instead? 
  3. If I run Barrage instead of GT, do I use it against one target?

Edit: to clarify, I'm asking for the most complete answer possible. I strive excel, and want to be at my best in WoD.

 

Also, about Stampede: should I wait for trinkets to proc before using it? Should I use it before or during Rapid Fire? Before or during Heroism?

 

I'm looking at latest SimulationCraft results, but frankly it's hard for me to read the action priority list for now. 

Edited by Iridar

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Iridar:

 

i think good start will be with some numbers

i got 494ilvl so anything can change, but i think its a good start

Aimed shot - 5161 dmg

Glaive Toss - 456dmg each glaive, 4x on target -> 3648 dmg

Barrage - 8726 dmg + half to other mobs

 

And now to your questions

1. When you got RF or mob is over 80% hp, you get another 60% crit chance to your Aimed Shot

for instance, i got 30,5% crit, +5% crit from raid...that means when mob is over 80% hp or RF is active, i got almost 100% crit chance (95% exactly) to do more damage (thanks crit) with every Aimed shot.

2. I would say that the maths is still here, but prob will pri GT over Aimed cuz GT is instant, but you should atleast cast 1 Aimed shot before you use GT, so the procs from TotH are not wasted entirely.

3. As you can see, Barrage deals some nice damage, but that can differ from tier to tier. It cost lot of Focus, yes, but in the meantime, its channeled, it got huge chance on procing TotH (okay, not so huge, but still 36%) and you regenerate around 10-14 focus while you are shooting. So use it 3s before chiamera shot is off cd and with atleast 80 Focus and you should do fine.

 

BTW take in mind, i do NOT use actual abilities formulas to calculate dmg, this is what tooltip says

Hope this helps

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I'm looking at latest SimulationCraft results, but frankly it's hard for me to read the action priority list for now. 

With the results you linked being the ones for t17M, I'm not sure if you're asking about level 100 or for level 90.  I'll try and answer for both.  As for reading the APL, it goes alphanumerically (a-z, 0-9) and checks if the action can be executed.  If not, it moves down to the next and the cycle repeats (obviously if the action can be executed it is).  Looking at the APL in the t17M results (and do note that there IS a separate APL for when Careful Aim is up), you should use Glaive Toss if there are More than 4 enemies (so at least 5) and Barrage if there is more than 1 enemy (so at least 2).  Do note that the APL is the same for level 90 and 100 (as I just did), so this applies to both levels.

 

Also, about Stampede: should I wait for trinkets to proc before using it? Should I use it before or during Rapid Fire? Before or during Heroism?

Stampede should be used on CD no matter what.  Ok, there *might* be reason to delay Stampede for the third AoC proc (at the 4 min mark), but if you aren't sure about how fast your group kills things (especially true for PuGs) then this can really go wrong fast.  How long you would delay Stampede would depend on your ilvl AoC, and with a 588 AoC, the cd for stampede is ~3.25 min.  If I were to delay stampede for my third AoC proc, I'd likely lose out on using that second Stampede entirely (which is a big loss compared to using it on CD regardless of procs).  

Regarding its use during RF/Hero: Do try to stack them together, as the pets scale with attack speed, so you'll get more attacks from them while under a haste buff.  *Note* I'm not sure, because I haven't checked, if RF still gives ranged haste only or if it gives a general haste, which would effect pet attack speed.

 

 

3. As you can see, Barrage deals some nice damage, but that can differ from tier to tier. It cost lot of Focus, yes, but in the meantime, its channeled, it got huge chance on procing TotH (okay, not so huge, but still 36%) and you regenerate around 10-14 focus while you are shooting. So use it 3s before chiamera shot is off cd and with atleast 80 Focus and you should do fine.

Barrage will always return 12 focus during its channel, provided you don't clip it.  Just as Aimed Shot will always return 10 focus, and Steady Shot will generate 22 (14 + 8 from cast time).  The reason for this is that focus regen is effected by haste like this: 4*(1+haste%), while cast/channel times are: Base Time/(1+haste%).  To find how much focus you would regen during a cast, you multiply the two together: [4*(1+haste%)] * [base Time/(1+haste%)].  The haste becomes a non-factor and focus regen becomes 4*Cast Time (where time is in seconds).  What haste does effect is how fast you complete the casts and can move on to the next part of the rotation.  

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Iridar:

 

i think good start will be with some numbers

i got 494ilvl so anything can change, but i think its a good start

Aimed shot - 5161 dmg

Glaive Toss - 456dmg each glaive, 4x on target -> 3648 dmg

Barrage - 8726 dmg + half to other mobs

 

And now to your questions

1. When you got RF or mob is over 80% hp, you get another 60% crit chance to your Aimed Shot

for instance, i got 30,5% crit, +5% crit from raid...that means when mob is over 80% hp or RF is active, i got almost 100% crit chance (95% exactly) to do more damage (thanks crit) with every Aimed shot.

2. I would say that the maths is still here, but prob will pri GT over Aimed cuz GT is instant, but you should atleast cast 1 Aimed shot before you use GT, so the procs from TotH are not wasted entirely.

3. As you can see, Barrage deals some nice damage, but that can differ from tier to tier. It cost lot of Focus, yes, but in the meantime, its channeled, it got huge chance on procing TotH (okay, not so huge, but still 36%) and you regenerate around 10-14 focus while you are shooting. So use it 3s before chiamera shot is off cd and with atleast 80 Focus and you should do fine.

 

BTW take in mind, i do NOT use actual abilities formulas to calculate dmg, this is what tooltip says

Hope this helps

 

Adding some additional details here.

The actual formula for each move is:

 

Aimed Shot - 420% weapon damage

Glaive Toss - 288% attack power (36 * 2 glaives * 4 primary target)

Now, the problem here, is that the two moves are using different metrics to determine damage, weapon damage vs. AP.  Using my own hunter as an example here, I have (unbuffed) 1900-2100 weapon damage and 1600 AP.  So my Aimed Shot is going to hit for, on average, 8400 damage, while my GT would hit for 4600.  Of course, Aimed Shot has a cast time, so it we normalized it down, it would be hit for 3360 damage-per-second, assuming a 2.5 sec cast, but since that is impacted by haste, it would, in reality, do more.  So, up to a certain Haste, outside of Careful Aim, GT would be the better option for DPS.  Using the numbers above, I calculated that if the cast time for Aimed Shot were reduced to 1.83 seconds (or lower), it would do more DPS than GT.

However, within Careful Aim, you have a virtually guarenteed Crit Chance for Aimed Shot.  Assuming you have 40% crit when buffed, for example, your Aimed Shot would Crit 100% of the time, while GT could crit 40% of the time.  This means that regardless of Haste, Aimed Shot is ALWAYS going to hit harder under the effects of Careful Aim, and should be prioritized as such.

So, to summarize:

Within Careful Aim: AS > GT

Outside Careful Aim but AS cast time < 1.8 sec: AS > GT

Outside of Careful Aim and AS cast time > 1.8 sec: GT > AS

 

EDIT - The Haste threshold could change based on your own personal Weapon Damage-to-AP ratio.  Mine, as you can see above, is about 1.25 WD :1 AP.  If your ratio is higher in WD, it would take less Haste for Aimed SHot to hit harder.  If your ratio is lower in WD, it would take more.

Edited by Atrais
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*Note* I'm not sure, because I haven't checked, if RF still gives ranged haste only or if it gives a general haste, which would effect pet attack speed.

 

 

It's pure Haste, I believe all Haste has been combined now, so benefiting from any form of Haste buff will increase Melee, Ranged, and Spell Haste, unless otherwise specified.

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It's pure Haste, I believe all Haste has been combined now, so benefiting from any form of Haste buff will increase Melee, Ranged, and Spell Haste, unless otherwise specified.

What I should've said was that I'm not sure if RF effects your pet's attack speed or not, because I haven't checked.  I know it gives a general haste now (since they were merged), but I don't know if it effects pets.  That's bad wording on my part though.

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What I should've said was that I'm not sure if RF effects your pet's attack speed or not, because I haven't checked.  I know it gives a general haste now (since they were merged), but I don't know if it effects pets.  That's bad wording on my part though.

 

Focus Fire increases both your pet's haste and your own, yes?  If so, I would imagine RF will as well, since the wording and mechanics appear to be identical.

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Focus Fire increases both your pet's haste and your own, yes?  If so, I would imagine RF will as well, since the wording and mechanics appear to be identical.

Frenzy = pet attack speed, Focus Fire = Hunter haste.  Again, I'm not sure if FF effects pets or not, but I would assume not, since that would kinda go against its design of strategic usage.  IF it did, then it would be simply use @ 5 stacks so that you and your pet gain the buff.  However, and again, I haven't checked this in-game, I doubt this is how FF works.

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Frenzy = pet attack speed, Focus Fire = Hunter haste.  Again, I'm not sure if FF effects pets or not, but I would assume not, since that would kinda go against its design of strategic usage.  IF it did, then it would be simply use @ 5 stacks so that you and your pet gain the buff.  However, and again, I haven't checked this in-game, I doubt this is how FF works.

 

I was basing my assumption that FF increased pet haste as well as your own on Niix's comment in the BM section:

 

Reasoning behind saving Focus Fire for Bestial Wrath is because your pet will benefit more from the haste inside of it than you will. If you set it up properly you will be casting Arcane Shot exclusively which renders haste entirely pointless.

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I was basing my assumption that FF increased pet haste as well as your own on Niix's comment in the BM section:

 

Reasoning behind saving Focus Fire for Bestial Wrath is because your pet will benefit more from the haste inside of it than you will. If you set it up properly you will be casting Arcane Shot exclusively which renders haste entirely pointless.

If you're going to quote the guide, at least quote the entire section:

 

Focus Fire should be used outside of Bestial Wrath when:

  • You have 5 stacks of Frenzy.
  • Nothing else with a higher priority is available.

Focus Fire should be used inside of Bestial Wrath when:

  • Bestial Wrath has at least 3 or more seconds left.
  • Nothing else with a higher priority is available.

 

Reasoning behind saving Focus Fire for Bestial Wrath is because your pet will benefit more from the haste inside of it than you will. If you set it up properly you will be casting Arcane Shot exclusively which renders haste entirely pointless.

 

The reason you'd want to cast Focus Fire inside of Bestial Wrath is when you can't get another Arcane Shot in, and you would be using a Cobra Shot. Using Focus Fire will give your pet a surge of Focus taking advantage of the double damage basic attack. If you cast it with < 3 seconds left on Bestial Wrath you run the risk of your pet not using it within Bestial Wrath, because basic attack (Claw/Bite/Smack) have a 3 second cooldown.

 

The proper setup is (I assume, at least, that it hasn't changed with the patch) to have around 90-100 focus for BW, so that you don't need to use cobra shot within BW.  So this would be when you are at ~35 focus with ~3s left in BW you would want to use FF.  

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If you're going to quote the guide, at least quote the entire section:

 
 

The proper setup is (I assume, at least, that it hasn't changed with the patch) to have around 90-100 focus for BW, so that you don't need to use cobra shot within BW.  So this would be when you are at ~35 focus with ~3s left in BW you would want to use FF.  

 

I didn't quote the entire section because only the first part was relevant to the question, do pets benefit from personal haste or not?  Niix seems to imply they do if the piece I quoted, since he is indicating the pet gains more from the FF haste than the hunter.

 

Specifically: "because your pet will benefit more from the haste inside of it than you will"

Edited by Atrais

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I didn't quote the entire section because only the first part was relevant to the question, do pets benefit from personal haste or not?  Niix seems to imply they do if the piece I quoted, since he is indicating the pet gains more from the FF haste than the hunter.

Fair enough, but not entirely true.  Pets gain attack speed from Frenzy, not Focus Fire, which are two separate abilities.  The two go hand in hand however, so it seems like one-and-the-same when they're not.  I'm getting on WoW now to check both RF and FF on a dummy.

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Fair enough, but not entirely true.  Pets gain attack speed from Frenzy, not Focus Fire, which are two separate abilities.  The two go hand in hand however, so it seems like one-and-the-same when they're not.  I'm getting on WoW now to check both RF and FF on a dummy.

 

I'm at work or I would have done that from the start :)

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Alright, seems like I was wrong.  Both Rapid Fire and Focus Fire (the active button) give your pet increased attack speed.  To be specific: RF gives an additional 1.4x Haste just like it does for the hunter.  Frenzy is 1.04x per stack (so 5 stacks is 1.2x) and Focus Fire is 1.3x (consuming the 5 stack).  Your pet can gain Frenzy stacks under FF, so you can get FF + 2-3 stacks of Frenzy up (albeit for a short time).

My numbers:

MM (Testing Rapid Fire):

Pet: Wolf (+Crit), Ferocity Spec (Yes this does matter, Spiked collar increases PAS by 10%)

Base Haste: 31% (620 rating)  -> Pet Attack Speed (PAS):1.39s (Base 2.00s) where PAS is the time interval between your pets melee attacks.

Haste with RF: 83.4%  -> PAS: .99s (2/(1.1*1.31*1.4)

 

Pet: Hyena (+Haste), Ferocity Spec:

Base Haste: 37.55% (1.31*1.05)  -> PAS: 1.32s

Haste with RF: 92.57%  -> PAS: 0.94s (2/(1.1*1.05*1.31*1.4)

 

BM (Testing Focus Fire/Frenzy):

Pet Spirit Beast (+Mastery):

Base Haste: 31%  -> PAS: 1.39s

1 Stack of Frenzy: 1.34s     2: 1.29s     3: 1.24s     4: 1.20s     5: 1.16s

Haste + Focus Fire (at 5 stacks): 70.3%  -> PAS: 1.07s

 

Pet: Hyena

Base Haste: 37.55%  -> PAS: 1.32s

1 Stack of Frenzy: 1.27s     2: 1.22s     3: 1.18s    4: 1.14s     5: 1.10s

Haste + Focus Fire (@ 5 stacks): 78.815%  -> PAS: 1.02s

 

So, from this it would seem like it would be best to use Focus Fire if BW has <10s remaining on its CD, since FF lasts 20s and your pet has a chance to gain more frenzy stacks during this period.  Maybe I've just been misreading things though :P

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So, from this it would seem like it would be best to use Focus Fire if BW has <10s remaining on its CD, since FF lasts 20s and your pet has a chance to gain more frenzy stacks during this period.  Maybe I've just been misreading things though tongue.png

 

Awesome, thanks for confirming whether or not Hunter Haste CDs impact our pets.

Based on this piece I quoted, does this mean it is theoretically possible for your pet to benefit from both FF and 5 stacks of Frenzy at the same time?  So +30% Haste with another +20%?  That's nuts!

Edited by Atrais

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I didn't quote the entire section because only the first part was relevant to the question, do pets benefit from personal haste or not?  Niix seems to imply they do if the piece I quoted, since he is indicating the pet gains more from the FF haste than the hunter.

 

Specifically: "because your pet will benefit more from the haste inside of it than you will"

 

What I'm referencing here is that you want to delay Focus Fire until AFTER BW is OVER. Because you will get more damage from your pet having higher attack speed from Frenzy stacks, then wasting it on pointless haste inside a window where you won't be casting Cobra Shot. If you get focus starved to the point where you want to cast a Cobra Shot, THEN you use Focus Fire, unless your BW is 3 or less seconds from expiring. 

 

I incorrectly worded that section in my guide. I'll update it right now.

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New Focus Fire section reads as follows:

 

Focus Fire should be used outside of Bestial Wrath when:

  • You have 5 stacks of Frenzy.
  • Nothing else with a higher priority is available.

Focus Fire should be used inside of Bestial Wrath when:

  • Bestial Wrath has at least 3 or more seconds left.
  • Nothing else with a higher priority is available.

 

Reasoning behind saving Focus Fire for after Bestial Wrath is because your pet will benefit more from the haste from Frenzy inside of it than you will. If you set it up properly you will be casting Arcane Shot exclusively which renders haste entirely pointless.

 

The reason you'd want to cast Focus Fire inside of Bestial Wrath is when you can't get another Arcane Shot in, and you would be using a Cobra Shot. Using Focus Fire will give your pet a surge of Focus taking advantage of the double damage basic attack. If you cast it with < 3 seconds left on Bestial Wrath you run the risk of your pet not using it within Bestial Wrath, because basic attack (Claw/Bite/Smack) have a 3 second cooldown.

 

TL;DR: If you properly setup your Bestial Wrath casts, you won't need a Cobra. Thus rendering haste useless, you should instead save your Focus Fire for after BW so your pet will benefit from Frenzy stacks during Bestial Wrath.

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Awesome, thanks for confirming whether or not Hunter Haste CDs impact our pets.

Based on this piece I quoted, does this mean it is theoretically possible for your pet to benefit from both FF and 5 stacks of Frenzy at the same time?  So +30% Haste with another +20%?  That's nuts!

If you get lucky with a 40% chance/pet attack, yes.  A bit of statistics will give the exact chance, so lets hope that I know what I'm doing here.

We have 20s to get 5 more stacks, each one having a 40% chance after each BASIC ATTACK, ie. Claw/Bite/Smack, NOT Melee Attacks.  These have a 3s cooldown regardless of haste, so we'll get 6 total Basic Attacks during FF.  

After 5 Basic Attacks (5s left on FF):

% Chance to have 5 stacks of Frenzy: 1.024%

4 Stacks: 7.68%

3 Stacks: 23.04%

2 Stacks: 34.56%

1 Stack: 25.92%

0 Stacks: 7.776%

After 6 Basic Attacks (2s left on FF):

5 Stacks: 4.096%

4 Stacks: 13.824%

3 Stacks: 27.684%

2 Stacks: 31.104%

1 Stack:   18.6624%

0 Stacks: 4.6656%

Edited by Orthios
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 Because you will get more damage from your pet having higher attack speed from Frenzy stacks, then wasting it on pointless haste inside a window where you won't be casting Cobra Shot.

Wrong, as explained by my testing above.  Your pet DOES gain attack speed from you casting Focus Fire, and more from that than it does from Frenzy.  

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Wrong, as explained by my testing above.  Your pet DOES gain attack speed from you casting Focus Fire, and more from that than it does from Frenzy.  

 

While it does gain haste yes, it is NOT as much haste as your pet would get from keeping it's Frenzy stacks. 

 

Edit: Holy fuck I'm wrong as shit. I just got my pet under a 1.00 attack speed.

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While it does gain haste yes, it is NOT as much haste as your pet would get from keeping it's Frenzy stacks. 

 

Edit: Holy fuck I'm wrong as shit. I just got my pet under a 1.00 attack speed.

Lol, didn't trust my testing?

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While it does gain haste yes, it is NOT as much haste as your pet would get from keeping it's Frenzy stacks. 

 

Edit: Holy fuck I'm wrong as shit. I just got my pet under a 1.00 attack speed.

I just wish "femaledwarf.com"  / zehera's still worked sad.png Missing it so much, simulationcraft is way too convoluted for my taste.

Edited by Iridar
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      Passives
      Your passives will once again depend on your variant of the build. You will want Overwhelming Essence and Blood is Power regardless, but the other two slots will vary.  Overwhelming Essence and Blood is Power are both integral skills to any ability and cooldown-based build. You want to minimize your cooldowns, and despite the intimidating requirement of Blood is Power, it triggers rather often. It counts premitigation damage, meaning damage before your armor and resistances. In any high level battle, you will proc this passive often. Overwhelming Essence is rather straightforward, as it simply increases your resource. 
       
      For the close range variant, I would recommend Stand Alone and Draw Life. Together, these passives will make you significantly more bulky and make up for a lack of sustain within your skills. An alternative to Draw Life is taking Life from Death and DevourSatiated over Corpse LanceBrittle Touch. This will somewhat lower your damage to bosses, but provide for more spam and sustain overall. 
      For the range variant, I would Aberrant Animator and Final Service. These both combine nicely with your Command Skeletons, while Final Service helps to improve your general lack of tankiness. Aberrant Animator gives your skeletons double your Thorns damage, while Final Service is your cheat death mechanic. 
      Skill list
      A- Grim ScytheDual Scythes/Siphon BloodPower Shift
      B- Bone SpearTeeth
      X-  Command SkeletonsFrenzy/ Command SkeletonsKill Command/Bone ArmorDislocation/Death NovaBlight
      Y-  Corpse LanceBrittle Touch
      ZL-SimulacrumReservoir
      ZR-Blood RushMolting/Blood RushPotency
       
      Passives
      Overwhelming Essence Blood is Power Stand Alone / Aberrant Animator Draw Life / Life from Death / Final Service  
      Now, into the parts that honestly don't matter nearly as much. Most of the build is in your hands, now this is just the nitpicky optimizations that I will honestly spend far too much/little time on. For the next sections I will be discussing gear, gems, Kanai's Cube, and paragon points. 
      For Gear I recommend going for a Legacy of Dreams build. This is rather standard, gives you an insane damage boost, and overall is versatile and workable. Make sure that you haveMaltorius' Petrified Spike. Another recommendation is your helm. Leoric's Crown is ideal for general battling, but Broken Crown is my preference for base gem farming, for hopefully obvious reasons. Honestly, just use common sense. LoD builds are incredibly player dependent, and you can build them just about however you want. Just prioritize whatever will feed into the general gameplan of spamming SimulacrumReservoir and Bone SpearTeeth. 
      For Kanai's Cube, you want to slot in Reilena's Shadowhook as your weapon, Krysbin's Sentence for jewlery, and the worse of either Reaper's Wraps or Nemesis Bracers. Shadowhook scales your damage based on your maximum essence, and with Overwhelming Essence and SimulacrumReservoir you're pretty well maxed out on your essence. 
      For Paragon Points you want to basically use common sense. This build is an ability spam build with limited sustain. Play to that. For example, you want to invest heavily into Essence, Cost Reduction, and Cooldown reduction. As far as defense, I recommend investing in armor so that Blood is Power is easier to proc. 
      For  Gems you should put Bane of the Trapped, Enforcer, and Legacy of Dreams in your ring slots. Zei's Stone of Vengeance is a solid alternative. For your Helm, slot in  Flawless Royal Topaz to provide resource cost reduction or Flawless Royal Diamond for CDR. Personally, since this is a teeth build you should go Topaz. For your weapon, you should go Flawless Royal Topaz if going the ranged build, and Flawless Royal Emerald for the close range build. And for your other slots, you should go (you guessed it) Flawless Royal Topaz. In my honest opinion, Topaz is the best base gem for necromancer. It provides Intelligence, thorns, and resource reduction. Sure, the thorns are only especially ridiculous with Aberrant Animator but once again, topaz is a godsend for Necromancer. 
       
       
      Changelog: 10/2/19 Fixed some grammar errors, clarified poor usage, and added more details to the build    

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