Warlocks - Where we stand after tuning

[Cardio33 3]

Absolutely agree if you are in a guild clearing mythic content 660 pvp gear is pointless.  If you are in a guild clearing heroics trying to get geared to start mythics, I definitely think it has a place.  Gloves are haste/mastery, pants are multi/mastery.  I'd rather itemize well for afflic/destro and play a piece of gear 10 ilevels lower.  

 

 

You can really get a lot out of the afflic pvp set bonus.  I was pulling 25k dps at 640 ilevel which is well into 95th percentile.  It fits into your rotation quite well, I port after a haunt and get a full channel with haunt up + 1300 versatility.

 

Twins is the fight I really feel it works well, porting out of fire and into better position to double dot.

 

With portal glyph you can get that CD down to 24 sec.  

[Chickymaymay 1]

This is more of a noob etiquette question, but I was rolling through with my Warlock.  She has mostly PVP gear because I'm not in a guild and I don't have a lot of time to do progression raiding like I used to.  Three different people in four different pugs pointed out that I was decked out in PVP gear as if I didn't know - ihave I committed a faux pas by wearing PVP gear in Heroics?  My DPS ranges from around 12k - 20k depending on the fight.

[Astynax 24]

This is more of a noob etiquette question, but I was rolling through with my Warlock. She has mostly PVP gear because I'm not in a guild and I don't have a lot of time to do progression raiding like I used to. Three different people in four different pugs pointed out that I was decked out in PVP gear as if I didn't know - ihave I committed a faux pas by wearing PVP gear in Heroics? My DPS ranges from around 12k - 20k depending on the fight.

Pvp gear meaning 620 crap, or 660 conquest stuff?

That said, 12k is hella low, if you have the ilvl that you legitimately need to look at raiding. 20k is decent gear for normals/starting heroics out.

That said, pvp gear uses the same stat budgeting as any other gear. E.g. The difference between a 660 pvp chest and any other 660 chest is going to be purely minimal, and a matter of where the stats are distributed. There's nothing WRONG with 660 gear as a stepping stone in raid gear progression. It's the same stuff. But you also haven't "proven" you can do the encounters by acquiring PvE gear. It's a somewhat dumb system, and is actually archaic thanks to the changes. But it used to be very suboptimal. Now, it's mediocre, but not mathematically any worse than anything with an equal ilvl.

Edit: IIRC, the trinkets from pvp are total shit outside if it. But that's all. Forgot about them.

Edited December 23, 2014 by Astynax

[Liquidsteel 279]

The 660 conquest trinket is actually pretty decent. Better than everything pre heroic Highmaul, as the proc lines up perfectly every minute from the reports I've had from those using it.

[Astynax 24]

The 660 conquest trinket is actually pretty decent. Better than everything pre heroic Highmaul, as the proc lines up perfectly every minute from the reports I've had from those using it.

That's true, but it's got something pathetic like 63 vers on it, which if I'm remembering correctly simmed out to be significantly worse than shard or the stat rock from imperator. But that was a while ago, and I may be misremembering or something changed. I'm off for the holidays due to scheduling. And don't have the willpower to grind out the conquest to test it.

[Mikedawg 4]

That's true, but it's got something pathetic like 63 vers on it, which if I'm remembering correctly simmed out to be significantly worse than shard or the stat rock from imperator. But that was a while ago, and I may be misremembering or something changed. I'm off for the holidays due to scheduling. And don't have the willpower to grind out the conquest to test it.

 

Here are my simcraft results for Destro using non-Mythic items: http://puu.sh/dIKl8/e65ad91b85.png

 

I actually kind of goofed it so I might not have gotten every combination with the PVP trinket, but I don't have time to run it again right now. 

 

Some nice guy wrote some code that generates the simcraft code: 

Unchanged: http://repl.it/4uA/ 

Mine: http://repl.it/4uA/14

Edited December 25, 2014 by Mikedawg

[Paracel 165]

Returning to thread title question, I'd like to paraphase it a bit :
"How do other see us after tuning/atm?"
From RL perspective? Competing with warlocks as other classes?
 

[Vile 9]

Returning to thread title question, I'd like to paraphase it a bit :

"How do other see us after tuning/atm?"

From RL perspective? Competing with warlocks as other classes?

In my guild noone would've thought we were in a bad spot unless we told them we're simming bottom numbers. I think the discrepancies in numbers are so close they don't become obvious unless you're all super close skill wise.

[Liquidsteel 279]

On Butcher I was top until like 3 minutes into the fight when I fell off hard. Affliction's opening burst with AD and SB:H (thus allowing Doomguard) is fantastic. I did fuck up massively and fail to maintain regular haunt during my 3 minute burst with all cooldows, which likely cost me about 1k DPS.

Overall we're ok damage wise. It's worth bringing one Warlock as our 3 specs are quite versatile (Demo being 50/50 magic and physical on Ko'ragh or Destro having great snap burst on Brackenspore) but we're not as fun as we were in MoP.

I've said it loads by now; the class feels unfinished and has mechanical issues which are having a negative impact on gameplay. I expect to see some of these addressed in 6.1.

[Alphric 7]

Cross everything you got: fingers, toes, even butt cheeks.

[Zagam 1,982]

On Butcher...

Best Dark Bargain use I've ever seen.  Grats on 6/7 bud.

[Liquidsteel 279]

Best Dark Bargain use I've ever seen.  Grats on 6/7 bud.

Haha thanks. I fat fingered it 20s into the fight and had to check it was still up (you see me mouse over to view my bars like 5s before I use it ^^).

[Zagam 1,982]

Haha thanks. I fat fingered it 20s into the fight and had to check it was still up (you see me mouse over to view my bars like 5s before I use it ^^).

As soon as your achievement pinged, I was like nice - can't wait to see this bleed tick.  You died instantly haha

[Errinkel 9]

I've said it loads by now; the class feels unfinished and has mechanical issues which are having a negative impact on gameplay.

 

That's what's bugging me. I'm not a hardcore raider, but I do pretty well in casual raids and other stuff, so I'm not going to QQ about my dps. But it just feels like they missed the boat on the simplification. It's over simplified and not put together well.

 

I await tuning in 6.1, and in the meantime I have been leveling a warrior via pet battles, which is weirdly addicting.

[Noveliss 1]

There are a few things that really bother me with where we currently are.

Destros AoE is dead, the only time you can keep FnB up is during procs/ds.
Destros single target damage is dog s***. Its really horrific to see how little damage we do in comparison to other classes. 

Basically, all destro is good for is shadowburn cleaving. Anything we can't sit there and shadowburn renders us useless.

I have no problem going to Affliction for fights like Buther, Twins, etc. But destro needs one of those two to be fixed. I enjoy swapping specs but destro needs snap aoe dps back, having to use all three specs in Mythic is kind of stupid imo.

[juribe 1]

There are a few things that really bother me with where we currently are.

Destros AoE is dead, the only time you can keep FnB up is during procs/ds.

Destros single target damage is dog s***. Its really horrific to see how little damage we do in comparison to other classes. 

Basically, all destro is good for is shadowburn cleaving. Anything we can't sit there and shadowburn renders us useless.

I have no problem going to Affliction for fights like Buther, Twins, etc. But destro needs one of those two to be fixed. I enjoy swapping specs but destro needs snap aoe dps back, having to use all three specs in Mythic is kind of stupid imo.

Destro single target isn't nearly as bad as you're claiming. and I'm personally ecstatic that I'm playing all 3 specs this tier. 

[Noveliss 1]

Destro single target isn't nearly as bad as you're claiming. and I'm personally ecstatic that I'm playing all 3 specs this tier. 

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/6#difficulty=4&boss=1706&dataset=90

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/6#difficulty=4&boss=1721&dataset=90

Bottom of the barrel for ST. IMO pretty low

Edit:

I don't mind playing affliction all that much, I just would like to have some kind of actual AoE for Destro. Give us back RoF with crits giving us emberbits, much like MoP. 

Edited January 2, 2015 by Noveliss

[juribe 1]

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/6#boss=1706&dataset=90

 

Change it to Mythic, Destro is fairly middle of the pack. And you have to also consider that because Affliction has a higher ceiling with RNG, more people are going to play it, so there's more parses. 

[Noveliss 1]

The only reason destro is middle of the pack on those two fights is because of cats on Karg, and adds on Butcher. In heroic it's basically straight single target.

[Zagam 1,982]

Mythic should be the mode where DPS is gauged and evaluated.  Heroics are essentially old school normal modes which aren't that important in how well classes are doing.

[Noveliss 1]

i understand that, but I'm just talking straight single target numbers. Those two would be good to fest shear single target dps. Everything in Mythic has some sort of cleave, small adds, etc.

[Lockybalboa 618]

Mythic is where DPS checks start becoming hard and when DPS balance matters, so it should  be used to test numbers. The fact that it has adds where normal/heroic is part of the point of using it for testing. When DPS starts to matter is also when the mechanics of the class start to shine. Such as, destro pure ST is low but in mythic pure ST rarely matters since there are adds, soon as adds are mixed in destro does very well.

[Cardio33 3]

After looking back over the logs for mythic kills at 75 percentile numbers I feel like warlocks are in a pretty balanced state.

 

Overall:  

 

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/6#dataset=75&aggregate=amount

 

At first glance is looks like warlocks are performing bottom of the barrel, but if you look at boss specific logs, we always have a spec that can perform in the top half of a raid.  Only thing mythic logs are showing me is that balance and enhancement are out of control.

 

Kargath:

 

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/6#dataset=75&aggregate=amount&boss=1721

 

I'd argue this is a warlock's worst encounter.  From what I'm seeing pretty straight tank & spank w/o adds to burn/regen resources.  12 specs are clumped in within ~5% dps but there are a few huge outliers; enhance, unholy, arms, & balance.

PS - I have no clue how destro is beating afflic on this encounter.  Maybe people haven't figured out afflic quite yet?

 

Butcher:

 

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/6#dataset=75&aggregate=amount&boss=1706

 

Affliction is a great performer, top 1/3 damage range.  Arcane seems to be an outlier performing roughly 10% above the average.

 

Tectus:

 

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/6#dataset=75&aggregate=amount&boss=1722

 

All classes/specs are quite close, within 5% deviation other than enhance, arms/fury, and unholy overlords.

 

Blackenspore:

 

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/6#dataset=75&aggregate=amount&boss=1719

 

Afflictions seems to be perfectly balanced, the numbers are thrown off by balance druid & hunter overlords.

 

Twins:

 

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/6#dataset=75&aggregate=amount&boss=1719

 

Affliction is top tier on this encounter.  No one can compete with ww monk overlords on this one.

 

 

TL;DR - Warlocks are in a great spot, instead of over-buffing they should fix RoF for destro and find an interesting/balanced way to make soul swap useful.  The real problem is that balance druids, warriors, unholy dks, and ww monks need to be toned down.  Caster wise warlocks do extremely well.

[Noveliss 1]

The ST damage isn't what I'm concerned about, if I want ST I'll play Affliction, my biggest concern is the lack of AoE destro has. Especially, when you have a fight like Tectus where you need burst AoE dps. RoF needs something done to it to allow us to keep FnB up longer during non proc phases.

[Noveliss 1]

Also, @cadrio destro wins out on Kargath because of the Tigers. Favor + shadow burn is insane