Sneakybastrd

Spec dps doubts

26 posts in this topic

Hi guys

 

I've boosted a hunter to lvl 90 and throughout this Highmaul I've been a MM Hunter. Now I'm trying to change to SV.

 

Here's my armory  http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/character/shadowsong/Parabolla/simple

 

I've just recently changed to SV and I've a couple of questions.

 

At this stage is there a clear diference dps difference between using Lone Wolf or Focusing shot?

 

Focusing shot seems the right answer but I seem to be underperforming (24k dps on butcher).

 

And another thing that has been bugging my mind. I've leveled through 90-100 as BM hunter but when I starting raiding I changed into a MM LW so I ditched the pet.

 

If I go SV hunter FShot, should I bring the pet back??

 

Cheers

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The difference in Focusing Shot vs LW on pure single target is not huge. For my gear it's +3% DPS if played optimally, which is harder than playing optimally with LW. 

 

Focusing Shot is not hard to play with, more like annoying, at least that's how I feel. Need to accept that no matter what you do, sometimes you will lose DPS due to movement. If that happens not too often, you will still get higher DPS than LW, but I hate that disgusting feeling of losing DPS so much that it's easier for me to abandon the whole idea. 

 

FS scales much better with the number of targets than LW, though, and multi-target is what SV is known for. Your call.

 

Myself I keep playing with LW just because 100+ wipes on mythic Ogrons tire me enough even without me playing tryhard mode, though most hunters around here seem to have switched to FS. 

Edited by Iridar

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The difference in Focusing Shot vs LW on pure single target is not huge. For my gear it's +3% DPS if played optimally, which is harder than playing optimally with LW. 

 

Focusing Shot is not hard to play with, more like annoying, at least that's how I feel. Need to accept that no matter what you do, sometimes you will lose DPS due to movement. If that happens not too often, you will still get higher DPS than LW, but I hate that disgusting feeling of losing DPS so much that it's easier for me to abandon the whole idea. 

 

FS scales much better with the number of targets than LW, though, and multi-target is what SV is known for. Your call.

 

Myself I keep playing with LW just because 100+ wipes on mythic Ogrons tire me enough even without me playing tryhard mode, though most hunters around here seem to have switched to FS. 

I use both myself.  You would have to be crazy to use FS on Twin Ogron, unless it was on extreme farm status.

 

 

Hi guys

 

I've boosted a hunter to lvl 90 and throughout this Highmaul I've been a MM Hunter. Now I'm trying to change to SV.

 

Here's my armory  http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/character/shadowsong/Parabolla/simple

 

I've just recently changed to SV and I've a couple of questions.

 

At this stage is there a clear diference dps difference between using Lone Wolf or Focusing shot?

 

Focusing shot seems the right answer but I seem to be underperforming (24k dps on butcher).

 

And another thing that has been bugging my mind. I've leveled through 90-100 as BM hunter but when I starting raiding I changed into a MM LW so I ditched the pet.

 

If I go SV hunter FShot, should I bring the pet back??

 

Cheers

How do you not have a pet?  You need one if you use focusing shot.

 

Your gear heavily favors MM, but SV still likely pulls higher numbers.  You need to work on getting MS.  Some of the pvp gear is great for heroic.

Edited by Minigun

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I use both myself.  You would have to be crazy to use FS on Twin Ogron, unless it was on extreme farm status.

 

i don't think you have to be crazy for that. If you were used to using FS before, hence practised with it for some time you will have little to no problems during ogrons.

If you're talking mythic, just use your fox during the empowered whirlwind (as you should do because of your group anyway) and try to pool some focus in case you need to move from the fire.

moreover since barrage is a big part of the cleave fight you, FS makes it a lot easier to get barrage of right when it comes on cd which is overall more beneficial than using LW just to make the fire a little easier.

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i don't think you have to be crazy for that. If you were used to using FS before, hence practised with it for some time you will have little to no problems during ogrons.

If you're talking mythic, just use your fox during the empowered whirlwind (as you should do because of your group anyway) and try to pool some focus in case you need to move from the fire.

moreover since barrage is a big part of the cleave fight you, FS makes it a lot easier to get barrage of right when it comes on cd which is overall more beneficial than using LW just to make the fire a little easier.

Yah, I was talking about mythic.  I guess that wasn't clear enough. 

 

There are only so many foxes in a raid, and the timer is much shorter than the duration of the WW.  There is so much shit that interrupts casting, besides movement that it's questionable if you get any additional dmg out at all.  Theoretically I would get about 2.5k more dps under ideal circumstances, but those are nowhere near ideal circumstances.

 

I tried FS on the fight several times, and I got wildly different results based on RNG.  My best dps attempt was with FS, but it was just luck.  I will take a consistent 32k with least dmg taken in the raid over a potential 33-34k if I get lucky.

Edited by Minigun

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Yah, I was talking about mythic.  I guess that wasn't clear enough. 

 

There are only so many foxes in a raid, and the timer is much shorter than the duration of the WW.  There is so much shit that interrupts casting, besides movement that it's questionable if you get any additional dmg out at all.  Theoretically I would get about 2.5k more dps under ideal circumstances, but those are nowhere near ideal circumstances.

 

I tried FS on the fight several times, and I got wildly different results based on RNG.  My best dps attempt was with FS, but it was just luck.  I will take a consistent 32k with least dmg taken in the raid over a potential 33-34k if I get lucky.

 

Well, the Empowered WW actually lines up pretty well with your fox cd, so even if you only have 1 hunter in your raid you will have one fox up for every Empowered WW. Also indeally you only need to get off one FS during the fox's duration together with either LnL or TotH proccs thats easily enough focus to ensure you using spells nonstop while moving.

 

Other than that, you're completely right with your argument that you rather take less damage. I for once can only speak from my expierience that i didn't really have too much problems using FS in the fight and would probably have screwed up my rotation with LW. It's a pretty different playstyle which i'm not used to at all because when i started playing Survival again in WoD i always played with FS

 

Your best bet for movement intense fights is just the specc you're the most confident in playing i guess

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Well, the Empowered WW actually lines up pretty well with your fox cd, so even if you only have 1 hunter in your raid you will have one fox up for every Empowered WW. Also indeally you only need to get off one FS during the fox's duration together with either LnL or TotH proccs thats easily enough focus to ensure you using spells nonstop while moving.

 

Other than that, you're completely right with your argument that you rather take less damage. I for once can only speak from my expierience that i didn't really have too much problems using FS in the fight and would probably have screwed up my rotation with LW. It's a pretty different playstyle which i'm not used to at all because when i started playing Survival again in WoD i always played with FS

 

Your best bet for movement intense fights is just the specc you're the most confident in playing i guess

If you can pull it off, more power to you.  I guess I fall in the same boat as Iridar, I can't stand the thought of losing out on potential dps.

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If you can pull it off, more power to you.  I guess I fall in the same boat as Iridar, I can't stand the thought of losing out on potential dps.

 

There are two schools of thought. Lone Wolf is far enough behind that even if you miss a few Focusing Shots, it'll still be better.

 

You run the risk of losing out on potential DPS, or running the risk of losing DPS in general by playing with a subpar talent.

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There are two schools of thought. Lone Wolf is far enough behind that even if you miss a few Focusing Shots, it'll still be better.

 

You run the risk of losing out on potential DPS, or running the risk of losing DPS in general by playing with a subpar talent.

 

I believe both are correct.  FS is better up to a point, but when movement is too intense it ceases to be better.  At that point it's a wash, and you are likely soaking up more damage than you need to.

 

I alternate between LW Sv, FS Sv, and LW MM. 

 

I haven't tried BM yet.

Edited by Minigun

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Probably today or on next Monday with the new guild we will try karghat in mythic, what do you think that is better between LV or FS? I almost use FS in every fight in hm and I have no problem, at least since now.. :P

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Probably today or on next Monday with the new guild we will try karghat in mythic, what do you think that is better between LV or FS? I almost use FS in every fight in hm and I have no problem, at least since now.. tongue.png

 

While the movement in Mythic Kargath is way more than in HC i'd still use FS over LW when you are already used to it

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Every fight in Highmaul, FS SV is perfectly useable.

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Focusing Shot can be completely trivial to use on Twin Ogrons. The only thing you move from is fire which is frankly only slight movement. Whirlwind you pop Foxes for, get the fuck away (Disengage button) and ride the wave. Rest can be carried with Thrill.

 

It is way harder, for sure, but claiming that it's not a thing that can/should be done ever is just stupid, especially when the benefit of Focusing Shot increases like it does (forcing you into Arcane Shotting where you normally wouldn't and using Barrage/Explosive Trap on cooldown all increase the amount of focus you need to perform your rotation) on even just 2 targets.

 

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Every fight in Highmaul, FS SV is perfectly useable.

 

Of course it is usable.  The question is if it's any deal better, especially for those downing the bosses for progression.  After it's on farm, you are allotted far more leniency in the encounter's mechanics.

 

The #1 SV parse will likely always be with FS, because it has the highest dmg potential under favorable conditions.

Edited by Minigun

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Of course it is usable.  The question is if it's better.

 

The #1 SV parse will likely always be with FS, because it has the highest dmg potential under favorable conditions.

It can't possibly be not better, and the reasoning for that is quite simple.

 

1) Blizzard would not create a fight with an unreasonable amount of movement, because they have to keep in mind pure caster specs like mages, warlocks, ele shaman, etc., that are REQUIRED to be stationary to do any meaningful damage. 

 

LW would be optimal only in a purely single target fight with an unreasonable amount of player and target movement, which I don't expect to exist. 

 

2) FS scales much better with multiple targets, because LW doesn't increase damage of Barrage, Multi Shot,  Explosive Trap, and most importantly - Serpent Sting. And purely single target fights are rare.

 

As long as LW stays what it is - a damage increase to only single target abilities - FS will always perform better. 

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It can't possibly be not better, and the reasoning for that is quite simple.

 

1) Blizzard would not create a fight with an unreasonable amount of movement, because they have to keep in mind pure caster specs like mages, warlocks, ele shaman, etc., that are REQUIRED to be stationary to do any meaningful damage. 

 

LW would be optimal only in a purely single target fight with an unreasonable amount of player and target movement, which I don't expect to exist. 

 

2) FS scales much better with multiple targets, because LW doesn't increase damage of Barrage, Multi Shot,  Explosive Trap, and most importantly - Serpent Sting. And purely single target fights are rare.

 

As long as LW stays what it is - a damage increase to only single target abilities - FS will always perform better. 

 

1) Those classes have instant cast abilities to use while moving. 

2)  True

 

Even if you could pull the theoretical added 2k dps, which is iffy at best under ideal circumstances, you are also going to take more damage on average.  Which means, you are basically being a detriment to the raid to pad the meter.

 

I am basically always lowest dmg taken when I use LW on this fight and mddle of the pack, with the other casters, when i go FS.

 

What's more, if people go with a more mobile spec you can shift from 5 healers to 4, and the overall raid dps will go up.

Edited by Minigun

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1) Those classes have instant cast abilities to use while moving. 

2)  True

 

Even if you could pull the theoretical added 2k dps. which is iffy at best under ideal circumstances.  You are also going to take more damage on average.  Which means, you are basically being a detriment to the raid to pad the meter.

Not true.  With careful planning (ie. knowing the fight and planning accordingly), decent rng with procs, and such, you will take no more damage than if you use LW.

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1) Those classes have instant cast abilities to use while moving. 

2)  True

 

Even if you could pull the theoretical added 2k dps, which is iffy at best under ideal circumstances, you are also going to take more damage on average.  Which means, you are basically being a detriment to the raid to pad the meter.

 

I am basically always lowest dmg taken when I use LW on this fight and mddle of the pack, with the other casters, when i go FS.

 

What's more, if people go with a more mobile spec you can shift from 5 healers to 4, and the overall raid dps will go up.

I don't see why you would take more damage. Survivability > DPS. If you have to interrupt an FS cast to move, then so be it. My point was that it's still gonna yield same or higher DPS on purely single target, and definetely higher on multi target fights due to how fights are balanced around much less mobile ranged DPS classes. 

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I don't see why you would take more damage. Survivability > DPS. If you have to interrupt an FS cast to move, then so be it. My point was that it's still gonna yield same or higher DPS on purely single target, and definetely higher on multi target fights due to how fights are balanced around much less mobile ranged DPS classes. 

 

Less mobile = More dmg taken on avg

 

if you hold all other variables constant, that's a basic fact.

 

Sure, you will probably do more dmg, but you will also take more dmg.  LW on the other hand is going to put out more consistent dmg, which will likely be very close to the avg of FS, much closer than the sim'd 2.5k difference.

 

There are bonuses to using LW on that fight as well.  Explosive trap is much easier to toss on CD.  You don't have to worry about your pet running around (though if you put him on defensive, you don't have to worry about that.).  Glaive Toss is easy to throw out without causing interruptions in your shot priority.

Edited by Minigun

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Less mobile = More dmg taken on avg

 

if you hold all other variables constant, that's a basic fact.

 

Sure, you will probably do more dmg, but you will also take more dmg. 

No, it's not. huh.png

You say "less mobile" like something is rooting you in place until you complete the whole FS cast. Move as needed. 

 

Every DPS player has this priority list in a raid:

1. Follow the fight's mechanics (e.g., burn moss on Brockenspore).

2. Take the least amount of damage possible while doing so. 

3. Do the most damage possible while doing so. 

 

EVERY DPS PLAYER. Regardless of class and spec. If you have a choice between:

A - finish current cast and risk being damaged 

B - interrupt the cast to move away from danger

 

You always choose B. So no. Less mobile does not mean more damage taken if you do your job properly. 

 

The whole definition of "mobility" is how much damage can you dish out while dodging danger in relation to a patchwerk fight. 

 

Of course, that's talking about progress raiding. If you farm the fight, or want to break a world DPS record, than sure, you may consciously risk getting damaged. Healers are there for a reason, after all. But then we're talking about a situation where damage taken doesn't really matter, does it?

Edited by Iridar

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I don't recommend anything based on assuming players are god awful. I like to treat everyone like a competent player until they give me a reason to believe they are not.

With that being said, my recommendations for Twins stand as they are, Focusing Shot is perfectly fine to use if you position yourself properly, and it will do MUCH more damage than lone wolf.

 

Light Movement -

ZXNrc6v.png

 

Heavy Movement -

6fjY4oJ.png

 

Keep in mind that the movement in neither of these accurately reflects the Twin Ogron fight. However Heavy Movement is literally moving every 10 seconds for 25 yards. EVEN THEN on a 2 target fight, you're only gaining roughly a few hundred DPS playing optimally. These numbers are purely anecdotal at best, but in practice Focusing Shot is not as close to Lone Wolf as you'd think it is.

 

The main reason is the fact that it is a two target fight. Most of your damage will be from Serpent Sting, which Lone Wolf has no effect on. The usefulness of having such a high amount of focus is really necessary to keep a high uptime on both your dots on both targets + being able to Barrage on CD. There is no way in hell you'd be able to do that with Cobra Shot.

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No, it's not. huh.png

You say "less mobile" like something is rooting you in place until you complete the whole FS cast. Move as needed. 

 

Every DPS player has this priority list in a raid:

1. Follow the fight's mechanics (e.g., burn moss on Brockenspore).

2. Take the least amount of damage possible while doing so. 

3. Do the most damage possible while doing so. 

 

EVERY DPS PLAYER. Regardless of class and spec. If you have a choice between:

A - finish current cast and risk being damaged 

B - interrupt the cast to move away from danger

 

You always choose B. So no. Less mobile does not mean more damage taken if you do your job properly. 

 

The whole definition of "mobility" is how much damage can you dish out while dodging danger in relation to a patchwerk fight. 

 

Of course, that's talking about progress raiding. If you farm the fight, or want to break a world DPS record, than sure, you may consciously risk getting damaged. Healers are there for a reason, after all. But then we're talking about a situation where damage taken doesn't really matter, does it?

 

Where are these B players at?  Most people I know don't play like that.  Heck, even I don't play like that if i think it won't cause a strain on the healers.  People will take a tick of dmg to finish a cast, if it won't do too much damage to them.

 

 

 

I don't recommend anything based on assuming players are god awful. I like to treat everyone like a competent player until they give me a reason to believe they are not.

With that being said, my recommendations for Twins stand as they are, Focusing Shot is perfectly fine to use if you position yourself properly, and it will do MUCH more damage than lone wolf.

 

Light Movement -

ZXNrc6v.png

 

Heavy Movement -

6fjY4oJ.png

 

Keep in mind that the movement in neither of these accurately reflects the Twin Ogron fight. However Heavy Movement is literally moving every 10 seconds for 25 yards. EVEN THEN on a 2 target fight, you're only gaining roughly a few hundred DPS playing optimally. These numbers are purely anecdotal at best, but in practice Focusing Shot is not as close to Lone Wolf as you'd think it is.

 

The main reason is the fact that it is a two target fight. Most of your damage will be from Serpent Sting, which Lone Wolf has no effect on. The usefulness of having such a high amount of focus is really necessary to keep a high uptime on both your dots on both targets + being able to Barrage on CD. There is no way in hell you'd be able to do that with Cobra Shot.

 

lol you are indirectly calling me bad... What a great ad hominem red herring, lol.  Even if, I were bad, which I can assure you I am not, it wouldn't matter.  It's not relevant in the slightest.  Steven Hawking could be one of the best theorycrafters ever, if he actually cared.

 

Do you know what the sim changes to calculate dps in light movement? 

EDIT:  Guessing from code.

If I understand right.  You have light movement starting at 45 seconds, and then repeating every 85 seconds, and a distance of 50 yards?  That seems way too generous, and it ignores other factors that can easily cancel your FS.

 

If you consider these other factors, I would consider the fight medium movement.  Which if was sim'd I would imagine would show both very close to one another.

 

I have used FS during the encounter many times with little to no interruptions on FS.   I have as of yet to see any huge difference, and I do know how to play it.  i was one of the first to convert, and tell others, like iridar, about how good it was.

 

All I am saying is that they are both viable choices.

Edited by Minigun

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No fights in Highmaul interrupt your FS more than the Heavy Movement scenario where FS is just inches off winning with retarded amounts of movement that doesn't use Disengage. smile.png

 

If you are not seeing the difference in sims when playing yourself, you do NOT know how to play it.

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No fights in Highmaul interrupt your FS more than the Heavy Movement scenario where FS is just inches off winning with retarded amounts of movement that doesn't use Disengage. smile.png

 

If you are not seeing the difference in sims when playing yourself, you do NOT know how to play it.

I know how to play it perfectly well.  It's not hard.  I have done it numerous times with FS.  If anything the sims prove the point I am making.  If sim'd for medium movement, then the difference in dps would only be about 1k.

 

All I am saying is both options are close, and viable.  I have used FS on the fight numerous times, but I wouldn't recommend a friend do it for progression.

Edited by Minigun

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