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batanete

[Secret paladin]This is getting ridiculous.

46 posts in this topic

I know these sort of threads usually lead nowhere, but I really feel like I need to vent my frustration towards the game. And I feel like a lot of people are currently facing a similar hearthstone experience, so maybe they can relate. I also prefer to post this here than on the immature dump hole that is hearthpwn.

 

I just played 12 ranked games at ranks 4-5(of course i had to drop rank after this). 8 of them were against paladin(and only one of which wasn't exactly secret paladin) and 2 of them were against druid(another deck I don't exactly love playing against as a renolock, but at least i got my ass handed to me differently). Needless to say, most of them got the best draw possible(things like turn 1 secretkeeper, turn 2 minibot,turn 3 muster,etc etc into turn 6 MC and then boom) and made me drop to rank 5 again.

 

When will blizzard open their eyes? How the hell can it be normal that you face over 50% of one deck in a nine class game? Is this actually how you expect people will enjoy your game? I for one can say I'm starting to consider quitting hearthstone until mysterious challenger is nerfed.

 

At this point I hate the deck so much I wouldn't even care if they changed the card's text to something like "gains one attack when you play a secret" just so it dies down completely. The deck does nothing but harm the game on either the competitive or the casual side. Some people have said it's there so new players can do well in hearthstone easily, but I think I actually know more new players who have quit the game because of the deck than ones who actually play it.

 

I understand there have been many annoying decks over hearthstone's lifespan(undertaker hunter, mech mage just after TGT, patron warrior, midrange druid with their stupid turn one shredders and their combo,...) but I don't think any of them were as rampant or as easy to just pick up and play as secret paladin is.

 

Do you understand my pain/would like to share your own experiences? 

Edited by batanete
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Firstly, one of hearthstone devs (probably Brode) said that they don't will try to balance the game by adding new cards rather than changing the old ones. For example, a new card for Zoolocks was released (Peddler), its "playrate" went up and now secret pallys and midrange druid have harder ladder. The next expansion will introduce another new cards and those cards will possible cause trouble to current "ruling decks" as well.

Secondly, if you hate the state of ladder, play arena. I play arena, meta doesn't bother me that much, it's easier to complete dailies and I have more time for other cancerous games.

12 games is not really a representable amount of games. 

People were complaining about Patron warrior, but when it got removed, people started complaining even more. This could so go on and on and on.

 

Yes, hearthstone is a cancerous game with strongly unbalanced cards, but you can either accept it and play the game, or just leave it and play other games. That's just how card games work.

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I don't understand how can you imply that it's defensible to have over 50% of one deck in a nine class game. Sure 12 games isn't enough to accurately measure it, but this has been the case for everyone I know that is at least rank 5 for several weeks now.

 

Yes, there have been many "cancerous" decks throughout hearthstone's lifespan, but we were never even close to a scenario like this. And as much as I hated some other decks I don't think any of them were as aggravating and easy to just pick up and reach legend with as SP. 

 

You are right though, if blizzard doesn't fix this soon I will likely end up quitting the game, and this is actually the first time I'm considering it after playing for over a year and a half.

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Keep in mind that the ladder actually had a lot of bots running secret paladin because of its ability to 'allegedly' play mindlessly  on curve. Blizzard is now effectively banning all reported bots. So I expect this to ease up.

 

I am a little confused about blizzard's nerfing policy. I know blizzard doesn't want t nerf cards but print new ones that challenge the OP cards, yet i've heard of various nerfs from streamers and forums in the past (leeroy, auctioneer, unleash the hounds). So entirely sure what factors ultimately decide on a nerf.  I've only seen one nerf in my hearthstone lifetime (warsong). Playing since post BRM launch.

 

Boom has been a staple card in many decks, over-shadowing even the new printed legendaries, and he hasn't been nerfed.

If blizzard is sticking with their design philosophy regarding balancing mysterious challenger, we might be waiting for a while for secret pally to die since LOE just came out and I don't think they will be launching a new expansion until another few months.

 

So you might as well join in and make a secret pally deck :P. Infact lets all make a secret pally deck.

 

Remember the more secret paladins out there, the more pressure on blizz to amend MC. 

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It's tough for Blizzard (OK; they *made* the monster, but we are where we are). On the one hand the number of people playing Paladin is a pretty good indicator that there's a balance problem, but on the other...I mean, look at the consequences of nerfing MC; if more than half of the people playing on the ladder are using that deck then you risk pissing-off over half of your paying customers. Many will (legitimately) complain that they spent resources (that may have come from real money) to craft the deck/that card in the first place. There'll be floods of 'This sucks! I've had it with this game' reddits, tweets and forum posts. The reaction will be orders of magnitude bigger than when Warsong got nerfed, purely because the number of people playing the card was much smaller.

 

It's very delicate and I will be very surprised if they directly nerf the card. Right now I think they are probably watching to see what happens to Secret Pally numbers in the wake of the banwave. If it's still perceived to be skewing things it's still worth waiting to see if the meta naturally takes care of things itself; people may get bored of playing it, or work out that if they're only playing mirror matches there is actually a better way to go. Failing that we will probably see cards in the next expansion to 'soft-nerf' the thing (although if the deck really is *that* prevalent - and I'm not seeing it at my level - there are tech choices you can make right now that will pay off)..

 

My own feeling is that secrets in general are the worst thing in Hearthstone. I hate the whole idea of the mechanic and I just wish they didn't exist full-stop, but they aren't going away. Maybe as a consequence of this mess though they will become less important, so there's that.

 

Anyway, Renolock I think is actually not bad against the Secret Pally, certainly tougher than some for the Pally. Failing that Freeze Mage or maybe an Entombing Priest. Although if you don't enjoy playing those decks and/or want more variety it's obviously not a great answer.

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Blizzard won't rush a nerf because they want people to pour cash into the card packs. At any one time there is always one of these FOTM/must-have cards floating around and it's usually at least epic. If MC was a legendary I could live with it much more easily because at least there would only be 1 in the deck. You can mulligan hard for it or just play on curve and wait, knowing that by turn 8/9 you've got a good chance to pull it

 

The issue they're having with bots playing Secret Pally just shows how little thought it requires, and how the deck doesn't have to respond to the other player at all. It's even less engaging than the classic freeze mage deck, simply because it's easier to pull MC when there are 2 in the deck and the swing it gives you is incredible.

 

I have a friend who has specifically made a secret paladin which feeds off the tendencies of secret paladin net-decks and he hit legendary (EU) with it yesterday, but I have 4 or 5 other friends who have either given up playing on ladder or resorted to playing combo druid and praying to the RNG gods to end it before MC becomes an issue.

 

I'm a relatively new player with limited deck options and as such the only form of victory I can find is roping whenever I'm fairly certain I'm up against a bot. You can't BM a machine after all. At least in this way I can perform a kind of public service by keeping them out of the queues for a few minutes longer.

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@creagle: Secret Paladin is actually quite a cheap deck. No need to put money into hearthstone just to get enough dust. 

I actually met Oil bots and CW bots. Bots don't represent the difficulty of the deck.

 

@batanete: Every game has its own deck/class/build/whatever that is more played that the others. For example, most of people play medic/assault class in Battlefield 3, russian planes in War Thunder or France in Europa Universalis. It's not just hearthstone, not just card games. This is the reason I believe 50% is still a somewhat reasonable amount.

 

Valkyr speaks truth. If you can't beat them, join them. Or, in this case, you can just leave the game.

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@creagle: Secret Paladin is actually quite a cheap deck. No need to put money into hearthstone just to get enough dust. 

I actually met Oil bots and CW bots. Bots don't represent the difficulty of the deck.

 

It's not about the cost, per se - it's the first FOTM deck in ages that makes Paladin playable and as such people are crafting a paladin deck for the first time. It's a really good way to get people to spend dust. It wasn't quite the same when Patron Warrior dropped but in the general meta, Warrior was out of fashion. All of a sudden this previously neglected class was playable again and people started dusting accordingly. This is Blizzard's general goal, to force players to dust for new decks relatively often.

 

eg Shaman is absolutely neglected right now, so with the next expansion there will be some insane Shaman-specific card that makes other decks unplayable.

Edited by Creagle

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@creagle: Secret Paladin is actually quite a cheap deck. No need to put money into hearthstone just to get enough dust. 

I actually met Oil bots and CW bots. Bots don't represent the difficulty of the deck.

 

@batanete: Every game has its own deck/class/build/whatever that is more played that the others. For example, most of people play medic/assault class in Battlefield 3, russian planes in War Thunder or France in Europa Universalis. It's not just hearthstone, not just card games. This is the reason I believe 50% is still a somewhat reasonable amount.

 

Valkyr speaks truth. If you can't beat them, join them. Or, in this case, you can just leave the game.

No, I think I'm going to keep complaining everywhere I can about the deck and get as many players as possible to do the same actually. If we all do it maybe the game I once loved goes back from being an apeshit fest once blizzard takes notice.

 

And yes, SP is easily the single easiest competitive deck in the game. I have played it myself to legend on the first week after TGT with over 70% win rate, and I consider myself an average player at best. Literally all you have to do is drop things on curve and whatever little knowledge you need beyond that to pilot the deck successfully(playing around AoE, knowing when to play which secrets, when to stop caring about the board and just go face,...) are a given if you are already at the rank 5 skill level.

 

After that I never touched it again, because as it turns out not everyone is as desperate to win that they need to play a deck they don't enjoy playing. You know, actually play this game for fun and don't enjoy playing against the same frustrating deck every other game. Saying I should quit the game because I don't feel like playing said deck myself is just immature and sad.

 

I mean, there's being the most popular deck(which is what mech mage was after TGT, for instance) and there's making up 50% of the meta. If you are actually claiming this is normal, you are delusional my friend.

Edited by batanete

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I have a friend who has specifically made a secret paladin which feeds off the tendencies of secret paladin net-decks and he hit legendary (EU) with it yesterday, but I have 4 or 5 other friends who have either given up playing on ladder or resorted to playing combo druid and praying to the RNG gods to end it before MC becomes an issue.

 

What was your friends deck?

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Actually I dont find Secret Paladin that OP. With my Midrange Druid and Dragon Priest I won lots of games against Secret Paladins. But personelly I hate face decks(Hunter,Shaman,Warrior). I thinks these decks doesnt require any skill to play. Just play charge minions and go face. End of the game about turn 7.

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Actually I dont find Secret Paladin that OP. With my Midrange Druid and Dragon Priest I won lots of games against Secret Paladins. But personelly I hate face decks(Hunter,Shaman,Warrior). I thinks these decks doesnt require any skill to play. Just play charge minions and go face. End of the game about turn 7.

Well then, you are wrong. Face decks in general have a lot more decision making inherent to them than either secret paladin,middruid or dragon priest. And yes, I have played all of the aforementioned decks a fair amount at high rankings.

 

It's funny that people still believe decks that operate around dropping things on curve until you snowball into a win are hard to play.

Edited by batanete

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Oh yes, because the decks you listed are known as SMOrc decks, "Face, never trade" and always-good-curve decks.

 

Also, what do you do if you don't get good curve? Snowball with the broken on-curve 1/1s? You're just salty.

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Oh yes, because the decks you listed are known as SMOrc decks, "Face, never trade" and always-good-curve decks.

 

Also, what do you do if you don't get good curve? Snowball with the broken on-curve 1/1s? You're just salty.

No, I've actually played the deck myself and know just how easy it is to play. Hell, why are we even debating whether or not a deck that has been piloted to legend by bots is easy to play or not?

 

You are correct in saying that you won't always get a perfect curve, and that when your hand gets filled with useless 1 mana secrets the deck tends to lose to itself a lot of the time, and that might actually be one of the few traits that separates decent SP players from the rest, as they will often be able to find a way to make use of the secrets and play around the opponent's options effectively(ie using avenge and hero power when expecting a minion to get removed, noble sac before opponent plays a weapon,...). But even then the difficulty of said decision making, and the influence of said decision making on you winning the game are both pretty easy compared to every other competitive deck.

 

Then again, considering you still believe aggro decks are just "SMOrc face never trade" you're probably not even worth my time debating. Players usually leave that fantasy world once they get past the rank 5 mark.

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For example, oil rogue has been piloted by bots to legends as well. Do you think it is a super-simple deck? I do personally not. I don't think bots are the meter when it comes to simplicity of decks.

 

Every proactive deck has usually simpler strategy when it comes to playing minions (Dragon Priest, Midrange/Demon Zoo, Midrange shaman etc.), but the choices are usually Trade or Face, and when you trade, which minion should you attack. Such is the fate of proactive decks. On the other side of spectrum, you have combo decks, such as pre-nerf Patron or Freeze mage. But yo probably know it. What I'm saying is that there are proactive decks, they are simpler, but that's just how they are supposed to be.

 

Although aggro players do trade, they go face the vast majority of time. Also, I did not say that I believe that, that's just what the community says and, let's be honest, they speak truth to some extent.

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I completely agree with batanete. This game is getting really boring. Also, classes like shaman or rogue don't have any chances against secrets paladin deck.

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I completely agree with batanete. This game is getting really boring. Also, classes like shaman or rogue don't have any chances against secrets paladin deck.

Let's say that Tempo Storm has valid information. They actually say that Secret Paladin is strongly unfavoured against Aggro shaman and only slightly favoured against oil rogue.

Actually, the problem is in Shaman and Rogue. They have been rated as the worst classes (shaman being the worst). Kripp even said that Shaman is a failed class.

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For example, oil rogue has been piloted by bots to legends as well. Do you think it is a super-simple deck? I do personally not. I don't think bots are the meter when it comes to simplicity of decks.

 

Every proactive deck has usually simpler strategy when it comes to playing minions (Dragon Priest, Midrange/Demon Zoo, Midrange shaman etc.), but the choices are usually Trade or Face, and when you trade, which minion should you attack. Such is the fate of proactive decks. On the other side of spectrum, you have combo decks, such as pre-nerf Patron or Freeze mage. But yo probably know it. What I'm saying is that there are proactive decks, they are simpler, but that's just how they are supposed to be.

 

Although aggro players do trade, they go face the vast majority of time. Also, I did not say that I believe that, that's just what the community says and, let's be honest, they speak truth to some extent.

No, the "community" you speak of are composed of the 90% of people who have never made it to rank 5 and are used to facing terrible face hunters every other game on ladder, and make judgements based on that. I know this, because I was one of those players for quite some time. 

 

I suggest you take a look at this article. I usually don't take pro players opinion at face value, as many of them tend to speak a lot of trash just to please their audience(also funny that many people can't see past this) but this actually reflects many of my own thoughts on the game:

 

http://www.pcgamer.com/in-defence-of-aggro-in-hearthstone/

 

I picked up aggro pally from this website last June. Up until then my best rank was 2. I worked my way towards tweaking the deck to my taste and learning how to play each match up, when and how to play around the opponent's answers,etc(I even made a program in python to track my win percentage against each deck in the meta, to try and figure out what changes I needed to make and where I could improve). And finally I got legend rank 157 in July. So yes, I managed to succeed at the game with an aggro deck through sheer hard work. So excuse me if I think that saying aggro decks are easy, pick up and go face decks is pure bullshit. On the other hand, the deck you are defending(secret paladin) is one I simply picked up, got to legend with over 70% win rate within one week after TGT and never picked up again. I have also played midrange druid, dragon priest and basically any other such deck on the high ranks of ladder and in strivewire tournaments(even managed to win some with them). So I think my opinion about them is at least a bit more educated than the aforementioned 90% of the community.

 

And I really want to take a look at some proof that a bot got legend with oil rogue, because I think that's halfway impossible unless the guy created an extremely complex AI and used his own gameplay to train it for months on end. Oil rogue is quite possible the most complex competitive deck on this game.

Edited by batanete

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Let me just quote one thing from that article, but change aggro for secret paladin

 

 

Secret paladin suffers from a bad reputation, and perhaps always will. But next time you rage at a deck you lost to for being “cancer”, stop and take a moment to think rationally. What makes your choice of Control or Midrange more noble and righteous than the person who’s playing Secret Paladin? Do you honestly think you’re playing the game right and they’re playing it wrong? Is the god draw you just lost to really any worse than losing to a Control Warrior deck that drew every answer at the perfect time? Did you really just lose because Secret Paladin is dumb and braindead, or did you get punished for making greedy deckbuilding decisions? Or even worse, did you just get outplayed by someone who read the match perfectly and maximised their resources as a result? Maybe it’s time we stopped giving our Shielded Minibot loving friends such a hard time and learned to accept that secret paladin is a key part of what makes Hearthstone such a great game. 

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Let me just quote one thing from that article, but change aggro for secret paladin

 

 

Secret paladin suffers from a bad reputation, and perhaps always will. But next time you rage at a deck you lost to for being “cancer”, stop and take a moment to think rationally. What makes your choice of Control or Midrange more noble and righteous than the person who’s playing Secret Paladin? Do you honestly think you’re playing the game right and they’re playing it wrong? Is the god draw you just lost to really any worse than losing to a Control Warrior deck that drew every answer at the perfect time? Did you really just lose because Secret Paladin is dumb and braindead, or did you get punished for making greedy deckbuilding decisions? Or even worse, did you just get outplayed by someone who read the match perfectly and maximised their resources as a result? Maybe it’s time we stopped giving our Shielded Minibot loving friends such a hard time and learned to accept that secret paladin is a key part of what makes Hearthstone such a great game. 

 

I do not blame people for playing secret paladin(if the deck option is there, you are free to use it). I blame blizzard for not nerfing the deck to the ground when it is present in over 50% of ladder. If I were to start playing in tournaments actively again, I would even use the deck myself, because when you are playing with money on the line you should pick whatever decks give you the best chance of winning, and not the ones you like the most.

 

And don't even try comparing SP to aggro decks. Aggro is a necessary part of the game for balance purposes, whereas the game would be just fine without SP(I would argue it would be better). And by the way, you are about the first person I see defending the deck this way. Even people I know who main SP say they would be happy to see MC's battlecry changed to "your hero takes 30 damage to the face".

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I think secret paladin is rather strong, but not unbeatable and now that meta has adapted, secret pally is definitely not as strong as it used to be. People play it mainly because it has the "The Best Deck Ever" reputation, even though it is not true anymore. It definitely was the case when TGT came out, I can't deny that. 

The thing with nerfing is that the meta will change a lot (and it got really bad last time a card was nerfed) and a lot of people will be unhappy (the Secret Pally players). When Warsong Commander was nerfed, there were people leaving the game and Blizzard probably doesn't want another "leave wave" (don't know how to call it), but this time it would be even bigger. I think this is the main reason why Blizzard doesn't want to nerf it. They know about secret paladin and they know it's strong. However, keep in mind that HearthStone is a F2P game and therefore it needs a lot of paying customers - if they leave, HearthStone will be doomed.

There are a lot™ of decks favoured against secret paladin and you can win by controlling the board, by killing him early in the game, you win if he gets bad draw, you win if you have burn spells because SP doesn't run heals (Freeze Mages and Aggro Shamans). There are way many more ways to win against SP than against Patron Warrior, which makes up for its simpleness.

I defend it because it's on the same power level as a few other decks - it's not super broken, it's just really strong and annoying to play against. 

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Much as I am okay with secret paladins(I am a secret pally myself), meeting 5-6 secret pallys in a row on ladder is no fun. Stopped playing ladder now. Casual has more variety of decks that I have no chance of meeting in ladder, due to their inefficiency on ladder. Hopefully when the next expansion comes out, it weakens secret paladin(not buffing it).

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I actually like Hearthstone despite what everyone says about things wrong in the game because I know what i am in for and I need to adapt to how the developers steer it. My only comcern comes when there is a lack of diversity within a class and in cards generally. Let me explain. Secret pally is strong enough that it is considered to be THE paladin deck. Oil is THE rogue deck. (pirate and malygos are still to my understanding considered niche) Of coarse this happens more so in some classes than others (mage has tempo and freeze, but druid these days is mostly just combo) Some cards or card combinations are visibly more powerful than others, and become auto includes, reducing the versatility one has in coming up with new deck archtypes. Shredder and Boom are so good compared to other cards in similar category that one doesn't have enough space to put something else and expect the deck to be as good, (unless it synergises really well for that class). I would like to make a deck with other legendaries I find, but in front of boom, most of them fall short. Big game hunter, while being a tech card becomes so good because of boom prevalence that it makes other cards seem poor, reducing the options you have to make a unique or different deck, resulting in cookie cutters.

 

Similarly MC is so good it is integral to have a good paladin deck making Secret paladin essentially the only archtype for the class that is viable. 

 

Issue with printing new cards that soft nerf MC may result in another card which people will need to use because, Secret paladin.

 

PS: I was reading somewhere that a Blue posted saying blizzard has no plans on nerfing MC or Boom.

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I see you don't play Midrange Paladin or Eboladin (Aggro Pally). They are strong decks (although Aggro Pally is weak in this meta).

As for Druid, you have Midrange Druid, Control/Taunt druid (my favourite deck) and Aggro Druid.

Malygos rogue is somewhat viable again and can possibly see more play in near future. Still, oil is the strongest and to some extent even the only competitive rogue deck. 

So, your view on tech cards is that they take place in decks, which results in the decks being less different from each other? For example, you play Zoo. You decide to include a Shadowflame to deal with other Flood decks, you lose the "flavour". You get rid of one minion that is usually less important and won't affect the "soul" of the deck, such as Brann Bronzebeard. This did not change the deck that much to be a "cookie-cutter". Don't forget that there are decks which do not really care about tech cards, such as Freeze Mage or pre-nerf Patron. 

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I think secret paladin is rather strong, but not unbeatable and now that meta has adapted, secret pally is definitely not as strong as it used to be. People play it mainly because it has the "The Best Deck Ever" reputation, even though it is not true anymore. It definitely was the case when TGT came out, I can't deny that. 

The thing with nerfing is that the meta will change a lot (and it got really bad last time a card was nerfed) and a lot of people will be unhappy (the Secret Pally players). When Warsong Commander was nerfed, there were people leaving the game and Blizzard probably doesn't want another "leave wave" (don't know how to call it), but this time it would be even bigger. I think this is the main reason why Blizzard doesn't want to nerf it. They know about secret paladin and they know it's strong. However, keep in mind that HearthStone is a F2P game and therefore it needs a lot of paying customers - if they leave, HearthStone will be doomed.

There are a lot™ of decks favoured against secret paladin and you can win by controlling the board, by killing him early in the game, you win if he gets bad draw, you win if you have burn spells because SP doesn't run heals (Freeze Mages and Aggro Shamans). There are way many more ways to win against SP than against Patron Warrior, which makes up for its simpleness.

I defend it because it's on the same power level as a few other decks - it's not super broken, it's just really strong and annoying to play against. 

I find it funny that you are concerned people will quit the game because SP gets nerfed, yet you are completely fine with telling someone who doesn't like the deck to quit the game himself. And by the way, I'm pretty sure there's a lot more people considering to quit hearthstone because of secret paladin than people who would actually quit because it got nerfed.

 

 

And don't even try to compare patron warrior with SP. Patron warrior is a deck that 90% of the hearthstone community couldn't even successfully reach rank 5 with, and you could even see the gap in skill between good and bad patron players at legend rankings(I know, because I faced them myself). As a result, even when TGT came out, despite the fact that patron warrior was still clearly the best deck in the game if played well up until it got nerfed, SP instantly became the most popular deck on ladder. Want to take an educated guess as to why that happened? The reason many people became upset about the nerf is because they spent months trying to get better with the deck so they could play it to its full potential and blizzard was retarded enough to nerf the deck to the ground one week before blizzcon, which was a massive slap in the face of those players.

 

 

I say this, and at the time my most played decks were freeze mage and aggro pally(which were both very weak against PW), yet I have no problem admitting the deck wasn't anywhere near as unhealthy for the game as SP is. SP damages the game both on the casual and competitive level, as it is easy enough to play that you see it over 50% of the time on ladder at the lower rankings and is also powerful enough that most people take it to tournaments in their line up. The deck needs to be nerfed, and saying otherwise is just silly.

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