garthvedar

little warlock, big world - trying to make it big

25 posts in this topic

Hey everyone,

first, let me say i have been following this website for quite some time now, especially the warlock sub-forum, where people offer solid advice and help out whoever is in need.

I initially thought about writing a heartbreaking segment about my harsh life as a warlock, but, being a man, i will try to summarize it up as much as possible.

1. I Joined ToT late, loved affliction but switched to Destro because well, everyone told me to do so.

2. My DPS was horrible, learned the spec, got some gear, and now I'm not last. Sadly, I'm not in the first 10 either :/

3. for some reason, the first boss, horridon, qon, and consorts - i'm doing ok-ish, but everything else I'm pretty much failing on.

On mergara, I was destro, with havoc on off-head and 3 SB every time under 20% - and still i was horrible (even though fellow locks told me that's the way to go).

Another lock in the guild is running what he claims is a full mastery destro build with no pet, to good results. but i have no idea if this is gear defendant, or how to do it properly.

4.last night told myself on lei-shen im sick of this, going back to my beloved affliction - that was a bad decision as i dropped to last (before, as destro i was one before last).

5. affliction isn't working for me, destro - i'm probably doing something wrong - maybe demonology will be the solution ? Can afflication be so dependent on gear (or rather - trinkets??)

Can't figure out if i should stack mastery, stack haste, or just get to a specific breakpoint? and when you say for example i need to get 6635 haste, then mastery, you mean i need to get 6635 without any buffs? just self buffed?

you know what, i'm not even sure what the real question i want to ask is. i simply don't like destro on the one hand, but on the other hand, if everyone's using it to good results, how hard can it be ?

used to love demonology so trying to see if i could shine in that spec. no vision trinket, and only ilvl 513 but it could be done. i'm not looking to be number one dps, but even in the top 10 i would be happy.

any help would be appreciated, i'm turning to you after countless hours in front of forums, and speaking with other locks.

my armory (half destro half demo, nothing reforged or gemmed the right way): http://eu.battle.net...rthvedar/simple

and logs from the raid: http://www.worldoflo.../guilds/223483/ (25th and 29th are relevant).

Again, i apologize if there isn't enough info or if i seem spread all around, but at this point i really just don't know how to proceed with raiding as a whole.

thank you for reading!

Garth

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Hey Garth,

So A couple of things I'm noticing about your logs from the 25th are:

1) Not using potions on many of the fights. You should be getting 2 in on every attempt by pre-potting.

2) Low Average Chaos Bolt damage. This likely means you are firing off CBs without any procs running some times. Really try to make sure you are lining up CBs with your procs. The main ones for you will be during every Dark Soul, and when Wushoolay's is stacking up. Lightweave + Jade Spirit wouldn;t be a bad combo either, but don't be just firing CBs without a purpose.

3) Megaera. Why did you delay your first DS for so long? No DS or pots on the pull is going to kill your overall DPS. Don't worry so much about Havoc+Shadowburning an off-head. If anything, use Havoc+incin times 3 as this will build embers and be more useful overall. Havoc+Shadowburn will get you higher DPS, but it's just padding so use at your own discretion. Use an Imp instead of your observer. The travel time your pet is taking is costing you DPS (about 5k DPS on that attempt).

4)Council: Same deal with the Imp. No travel time means better DPS when you switch targets. You lost about 2.2k DPS with your observer running around. As destro you should be using Havoc on cooldown. You only used it twice. Also DS should be used on cooldown as well.

5)Horridon: Didn't use DS until halfway in to the fight. Low Havoc count. Use DS on cooldown and Havoc on to Horridon +Shadowburn off of the larger adds as they die. You should be swimming in embers on this fight.

Its pretty late so I'm going to call it quits for now. The basic things to improve on for destro would be to pre-pot and use DS on the pull (except Jin'rok, wait for that first pool + hero for DS) Make use of Havoc when there are adds/multi targets. Line up your CBs with DS or large trinket/profession/enchant procs.

Destro is a fairly simple spec to play as long as you follow some basic guidelines. Keep immo up, keep RoF up, don't cast CB when you have 3+ stacks of Backdraft, don't cap out on embers by making sure you are using CB when procs are rolling and make sure you have 3+ embers for when DS is coming off cooldown.

Most of your problems are coming from gameplay and not your gear/gemming/reforging. The only major recommendation I'd make is to get much closer to 15% hit, especially for Destro. Most of the other stuff balances itself out well enough to where you won't see gamebreaking DPS changes by going one way or the other.

Best of luck!

edit: Wall of text, sorry. Hope it helps though!

Edited by Cruzan
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You already got good feedback from the poster above, so I'll just add a little bit from my own:

''Havoc other head'' part - I don't really agree with this. When a head dies, the other one heals to full, so technically, you're wasting a global cooldown there doing damage that is pointless. What you should do on that fight is to put a RoF down on the ground between the two near heads, so that it hits both of them, and it will, since their hitboxes are huge. The reason you want to do this is because you would otherwise want RoF on single-target and moving it so that it hits both and gives you more embers is not a waste of any GCDs you would otherwise use to kill the priority target.

I would suggest going for Int in red sockets, Int+Mastery in orange ones and Int+Hit in purple ones. I have found that mastery is better than haste, if your timing of Chaos Bolts is properly aligned to the procs you have in the fight. Also, you want the haste for your RPPM stuff to actually proc, so prio Mastery over Haste over Crit. And get Hit capped.

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First of all, thanks a lot for the time you both took to answer me! much appreciated!

Ill take all of that and see if i can improve on your advice. would also very much like to hear if anyone has any advice on trying demo spec and maybe enlighten me on my questions on how to re-forge/gem and tips to improve.

I'm also highly interested in knowing how you managed to calculate how much DPS i would lose from using the wrong pet for example. that would be so beneficial to know!

And as with every person who posts here, i live and breath for a response from the mighty Zagam..with thoughts on how i could start Demo and become a true minion of the horde.

thanks again!

Edited by garthvedar

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I'd like to add one more thing for Magaera as Destruction. Havoc doesn't hamper you with a GCD and I still use it for this fight. Instead of using it only with Shadowburn to fluff numbers, use it on CD with Incinerate/Immolate to generate more embers for you, along with RoF. It may not look as nice on the meters as Shadowburn does, but as you get better with the spec it will help your team out more.

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Silly me, thanks for that note about the GCD.

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I'd like to add one more thing for Magaera as Destruction. Havoc doesn't hamper you with a GCD and I still use it for this fight. Instead of using it only with Shadowburn to fluff numbers, use it on CD with Incinerate/Immolate to generate more embers for you, along with RoF. It may not look as nice on the meters as Shadowburn does, but as you get better with the spec it will help your team out more.

As Omaric points out, LOTS of players want to see NUMBERS...BIG NUMBERS. They just want big numbers as opposed to how you want to execute each fight to give the maximum EFFECTIVE DPS. For example, on Megaera, as Destruction, putting Immolate on your non-kill target head is a good idea. Why? It can generate embers which in turn effectively boosts your single target damage. Putting Havoc on your non-kill target and hitting your main target with Chaos Bolt will do ~350-500k damage to the non-kill head as well as your main target as well as costing 1 Burning Ember. While Recount and World of Logs show you did 700k-1M damage in that spell cast, you ACTUALLY did 350-500k to your raid's objective target while doing meaningless damage to another. Chaos Bolt doesn't generate embers, it costs them. The proper way to do this is to put Havoc on your non-kill target and use Incinerate 3x. While not as sexy on the meters, you're still doing approximately the same amount of damage to your kill target and non-kill target, but you're also generating AT LEAST 6/10 of an ember because you're hitting double targets thus doubling the guaranteed 3/10 from single target Incinerate x3. You can now use those Embers to generate an additional Shadowburn or Chaos Bolt on your EFFECTIVE target.

Check World of Logs for the Megaera kills. Notice how Affliction is up there above 200k DPS? How come these same players are unable to generate 200k DPS on Durumu? Because they are slapping DoTs on an ineffective target. This is "padding" in its purest form.

This brings me to an issue I recently incurred during Heroic Council progression. Some players in my raid group had no idea why I was putting Doom on our non-kill targets. They thought I was "padding," when in reality, I was optimizing my globals and performance. For one, Council isn't a Council type fight in that when you kill one, the rest are healed. All damage you do at any point during the fight is effective damage. However, if your focus is on multi-dotting, then your single target DPS requirement to push your kill target is lower. Demonology gets an asterisk in this category. By placing Doom (even better if Perfect Aim Doom) on all of the bosses, you are generating extra Demonic Fury, extra Wild Imps, and thus even more Demonic Fury. Spending 3 globals at the beginning of this encounter will boost your DPS to incredible levels...and the best part is ITS ALL EFFECTIVE DAMAGE!

TL;DR version of this little spat for fights with "ineffective" targets is this:

Affliction multi-dotting = padding only. You generate extra damage, but none of that damage correlates into anything. Exception: if you only apply Corruption to fish for Soul Shards. This is acceptable, but burning a Soul Shard to apply all three DoTs = fail. Also, spending two globals to apply UA and Agony for "padding" = fail.

Destruction multi-dotting = higher Ember generation = higher DPS = optimal. Even against ineffective targets, the DPET of Immolate is high enough and allows for easy and higher Ember generation. Rain of Fire is even better for this. Cleaving = higher single target DPS. Consider a fight like Primordius where you will be hitting so many slimes with Rain of Fire that you won't be able to cast Chaos Bolt faster than you can generate Embers spending them.

Demonology multi-dotting = higher everything = higher DPS = optimal. Doom crits generate Wild Imps which work as if they are in assist mode and attack your target. Evidence in this is on a fight like Council where you have 20 Imps shooting the same target regardless of which Doom proc'd them. Your gain here is increased damage and increased DF on your kill target, even if DoTs are running on "ineffective" targets.

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Check World of Logs for the Megaera kills. Notice how Affliction is up there above 200k DPS? How come these same players are unable to generate 200k DPS on Durumu? Because they are slapping DoTs on an ineffective target. This is "padding" in its purest form.

Could be that they're also using that fancy Affliction SS trick since they always have 2 targets. ;-D

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Quite possibly. This is where most players, myself included, get caught up in looking up the top Warlock specs per fight. Most stop at seeing 'holy shit, Demo OWNS Council, so I must be Demo for Council. Oh, Destro destroys Primoridus? Gotta do that!' I tend to do that, but I always dig a bit deeper and find out why. Check out Brusalk's Heroic Primordius parse...he does 210k more DPS THAN 2ND PLACE!

Proof: http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-kmdsp3exkg87fpbh/sum/damageDone/?s=33&e=400#Brusalk

My first thought was 'Rain of Fire spam with Shadowburn on the adds.' I was probably pretty darn close. Since he's what I consider the best Destro Warlock in the world, I know that he would manipulate the fight in such a way that he probably keeps Rain of Fire going, uses Havoc from the slimes onto Primordius, and spams Chaos Bolt on Primordius because he never has ember issues. You might think 'eh, he's just that awesome.' Then you notice the top 10 parses of ALL classes are Destruction Warlocks. Absolutely no parody. Why? A Mastery stacked Grim of Sacrifice Destruction Warlock here just can't be beaten. Then again, there are always exceptions. I feel like because the top few Destro Warlocks did this fight as Destruction, then the skilled Warlocks who followed ALSO played Destruction thus skewing the results. Take for instance Demonology Warlocks on Heroic Megaera. On our best attempt, we wiped during Rampage 6. I was at 191k DPS with no real sign of slowing down since Perfect Aim just proc'd. If we drop her on that attempt, I rank #1 in the world as Demonology. If I just stay at 180k, I'm #1 US Demo Warlock on that fight. Am I the best Demonology Warlock in the US/World on that fight? Hell no. It just turned out that the first few that did it played another spec which made some of the ones to follow also play that spec thereby skewing all the data by having nearly all of the best Warlocks playing the same spec on this fight.

With all the DPS talk, it's almost as if DPS is important. I don't think I've wiped one time to anything in Throne of Thunder, even heroic mode, to Berserk except for Horridon, but that was with a group that never seemed to make it to P4 with everyone alive. DPS is always important, but the thing to remember is the hardest a fight will ever be is the first time you down it. After that, things get dramatically easier. I expect in the next month or so, you'll see some non-trendy parses from players switching to non-Destruction on Primordius or non-Demonology on Heroic Durumu. Most upper tier guilds are looking to play with the specs that dominate that fight exclusively. Check out Sparknuggz videos on Heroic Durumu. All 5 Warlocks are Demonology. Check out Ra-den...they're all Destruction. I'll bet they don't continue only playing those specs for the next 3 months.

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Are you considering that Immolate bug on Primordius where all damage is double/tripled on them? It's since been changed, but WoL won't mirror that.

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It still could happen and is very tied into the RNG you receive when picking up your 5 buffs. I'm sure some of those top parses are picking up 50% + Mastery making Chaos Bolt hit like a beast. It's interesting to value out those buffs in terms of each spec. For Affliction, 10% Haste is good, 10% Mastery is good, and 10% Crit is good. The scaling with each stat is pretty similar. However, imagine a Demonology Warlock picking up +50% Mastery. Mastery % doesn't scale as high with Demonology because it's a flat buff to caster form, pets, and triple the effect for Meta form. I would imagine if the stars align and I got +50% Mastery buffs and went to town in Meta, Dark Soul, Imp Swarm, etc that it wouldn't even be funny. I think my Demo lock runs around 23% Mastery raid buffed. This would truly be comedical. Same would work for Affliction getting all Haste. Can't even imagine the screen of yellow numbers if you just DoT'd every single ooze. For Destro, imagine the Mastery buff making your Chaos Bolt hit 50% harder. BOOM.

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Oh, yes, it would definitely help, but you're still not going to reach the logs of some Destruction warlock who was taking advantage of double or triple damage on targets afflicted with Immolate. It's just not going to happen, especially not now that they've fixed the bug.

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Zagam, thank you for answering! your post, and the ones who followed are truly captivating.

I'm not looking to be top EU or number 1 on the charts. I would settle for one spec for the duration of the whole raid and a nice spot in the top 6.

Now i know you say it can be done with either destruction or demonology, but considering my ilvl and the lack of the lei shen trinket, what would your advice be ?

and should you convince me to go for Destro, could i pull off a mastery stack/GoSac ? or just stack the usual hit/crit/mastery/haste (and Go Sup).

and if i go with demo, should i stack mastery and sac, or choose another path (which?).

There are just so many options, i want to ease into demo and learn it again..

thanks again to all who replied !

Edited by garthvedar

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He casted incinerate 13 times single target. Destruction is op on primo because of RoF, not a bug.

Also, http://worldoflogs.c...13/?s=33&e=400.

http://worldoflogs.c...s/5/?s=33&e=400

Damage by actor tab.

He was primarily on adds. The mage actually beat him on boss damage. But a good destro/shadow combo can two man the entire room of adds, leaving the others to tunnel boss. So, he isn't 'padding.'

Edited by gahhda

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I'm also highly interested in knowing how you managed to calculate how much DPS i would lose from using the wrong pet for example. that would be so beneficial to know!

On WoL, go to Dashboard>>Damage Done then pick the fight you're interested in, so under Full Report>>Kills>>Megaera

This brings up a list of everyone and their Damage and whatnot. Scroll down to yourself and you can see a little arrow next to your name. click that and you can see your pets listed. Look to the right and the difference between DPS and DPS(e) is the lost DPS that I am pulling from. The DPS might be great for your observer, but the time he spends running and not doing damage lowers his DPS(e)!

I think we've got a T15 Warlock Style convo going on here so hopefully your questions don't get lost Posted Image.

Personally I think if you stick with Destro you'll be pretty pleased as a whole. It's sort of the jack-of-all-trades atm. Great single-target, great cleave, relatively poor multi-target. If you learn how to play a multi-target spec then you can remain competitive on fights like Council, but for everything else you will be fine. Even if you stick to destro on Council you will be fine if you are doing great DPS on your kill priority target. Its not padding for multi-dotters to DoT all 4 bosses, but if you have a raid comp where the single-target DPS to an empowered boss is low then you will run in to problems. Demo is an exception, because once you are done maintaining 100% crit-Doom on the bosses your imps will follow your target so you can maintain zomg-DPS on the empowered boss Posted Image.

Mastery/Sac is kind of a niche spec for destro and won't be a default move for the majority of t15 fights. For your stat priority you can get away with anything really. M>H>C works well, H>M>C works well, M=H>C works well, C>M>H is okay, but I'm not sure about it. The stat weights are fairly close to each other so they offset each other pretty well.

If you want to try Demo then Mast/Sac will probably need to wait until you get unerring. The reason that spec works is because of the crazy amount of Wild Imps you get from that trinket+Doom and Sac buffs those Imps by 30%. If you don't have the trinket then M=H>C will be a good start point while you learn the spec and get more gear. It's the same story where the stat weights are almost equal to each other so your damage balances out fairly well regardless of which priority you take.

Edited by Cruzan
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Cruzan thanks for your detailed answer, much appreciated!

It's always fun to post here and recieve so much support form the members. I have enough info now to try Demo, and if I don't like it, go back to Destro.

a couple of questions though:

1. being that destro prefers crit, and demo haste/mastery - is it possible to have one set of gems/reforges and switch between the specs?

2. the council fight as destro - do i keep immolate on all, keep RoF up and focus main target while using havoc on CD ? and as demo i would corruption/doom on all, then single target (without perfect aim trinket) ?

3. tortos - as destro, do i bother with the turtles or focus single target and do some aoe on bats (and possibly use havoc and SB or bats)?

thanks again!

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Cruzan thanks for your detailed answer, much appreciated!

It's always fun to post here and recieve so much support form the members. I have enough info now to try Demo, and if I don't like it, go back to Destro.

a couple of questions though:

1. being that destro prefers crit, and demo haste/mastery - is it possible to have one set of gems/reforges and switch between the specs?

2. the council fight as destro - do i keep immolate on all, keep RoF up and focus main target while using havoc on CD ? and as demo i would corruption/doom on all, then single target (without perfect aim trinket) ?

3. tortos - as destro, do i bother with the turtles or focus single target and do some aoe on bats (and possibly use havoc and SB or bats)?

thanks again!

1. You can't keep a dual-spec like set of gems and reforges. You'll spend a lot of money switching back and forth. This is why I prefer Haste>Mastery>Crit because its suitable for all specs and optimal for 2 of them.

2. Destruction is the crappiest spec for Council by a long shot. It's multi-target potential when targets are spread out is poor. You will likely have two bosses stacked together, so Rain of Fire will be good. I wouldn't focus keeping Immolate up on the two targets spread out unless they're empowered and you're focusing them down. Using Havoc on CD is an absolute must to remain competitive. If you somehow work it out to where there's one boss not empowered and below 20%, your raid likely won't be finishing him off. He/she will then become your Shadowburn baby. You'll Havoc your primary target and switch to the sub 20% boss and use Shadowburn 3 times. This will be your biggest opportunity to do good DPS. You won't be able to pull anywhere near the numbers you could as Affliction or Demonology on this fight as you will Destruction.

3. This is always a group-dependent question. As Demonology on Heroic, myself (as Demo), an UH DK, and a Blood DK take care of all bats while a Moonkin and Mage do the turtles and everyone else sits on the boss. Your group's capability will dictate what you do on that boss. Now if we're talking about potential, Destruction has HUGE potential on this fight. Rain of Fire + Fire and Brimstone spells will OWN the bats. This won't be as evident if you have a Frost DK, Survival Hunter, or other beastly AoE blowing them up before you do. If you are the only DPS on the bats along with a tank, no one should come close to your DPS.

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1. You can't keep a dual-spec like set of gems and reforges. You'll spend a lot of money switching back and forth. This is why I prefer Haste>Mastery>Crit because its suitable for all specs and optimal for 2 of them.

Thanks for your reply. Now, this is a bit odd to me because i was working under the assumption Destro favors crit over mastery and haste.

If this is indeed true, and i could output the same relevite DPS with either Crit>haste=mastery OR haste>mastery>crit, that would mean i could swap mid raid between the specs without re-gemming or reforging, which is great!

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Zagam,

For the haste> mastery> crit setup what weights couls you put into askmrrobot to achieve this?

As would love to be able to switch specs for different fights and still be able to keep up dps

Thanks,

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When you set up any stat weights, you don't need to be accurate. AMR will just prioritize what you value the highest, then what you value 2nd highest, then what you value 3rd. It's not going to give you proportions like 2.8 Mastery per 2.6 Haste per 2.4 Crit. Just put in 3 for Mastery, 2 for Haste, and 1 for Crit. Set hit at 5100 and watch the magic. With Hit as the highest priority, it will find all missing Hit rating from Crit, then Haste, then Mastery. After that has been achieved, it will push all Crit into Mastery and then Haste. After that, it will push all remaining available Haste into Mastery.

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Awesome brilliant, and sorry still very new to getting my head around stats and reforging. But with aiming for this kind of setup all specs of warlock would be viable to play and switch between different fights?

Muchi gracias

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You already got good feedback from the poster above, so I'll just add a little bit from my own:

''Havoc other head'' part - I don't really agree with this. When a head dies, the other one heals to full, so technically, you're wasting a global cooldown there doing damage that is pointless. What you should do on that fight is to put a RoF down on the ground between the two near heads, so that it hits both of them, and it will, since their hitboxes are huge. The reason you want to do this is because you would otherwise want RoF on single-target and moving it so that it hits both and gives you more embers is not a waste of any GCDs you would otherwise use to kill the priority target.

I would suggest going for Int in red sockets, Int+Mastery in orange ones and Int+Hit in purple ones. I have found that mastery is better than haste, if your timing of Chaos Bolts is properly aligned to the procs you have in the fight. Also, you want the haste for your RPPM stuff to actually proc, so prio Mastery over Haste over Crit. And get Hit capped.

This. It's hilarious to see chaos bolts fly across the room from our destro locks because they're meter padding. Subtle

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This. It's hilarious to see chaos bolts fly across the room from our destro locks because they're meter padding. Subtle

To some people those "meters" are their only way to qualify to raid with a guild, who are you to judge them and decide if they can or can't raid?

you want to be a saint, go for it, but lets not pretend most players do that since in a raiding environment, a higher number gives you bragging rights, and everybody wants that.

Some choose to be the best, some are mediocre and yes, some pad in order to get the chance to raid, or even get a pat on the back for being decent. right or wrong, it's just the way it is.

and no, this isn't meant to flame or set a discussion, its just my opinion, and it's the truth. this is just a game in the end, remember that..

Zagam - thanks for the advice above about the weights, will go for that and test it out.

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That didn't really sound like judging. It sounded like Chaos bolts flying across the room doing pointless damage being hilarious. And it is, in a way hilarious because it's bad practice people brag about. Any half-decent raid leader (half-decent raider even) will see warlock(s) doing this so he/she probably won't take their big numbers seriously. If they do take it seriously, even after you explain them why, then maybe you should consider the meter-padding or a change of scenery.

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To some people those "meters" are their only way to qualify to raid with a guild, who are you to judge them and decide if they can or can't raid?

you want to be a saint, go for it, but lets not pretend most players do that since in a raiding environment, a higher number gives you bragging rights, and everybody wants that.

Some choose to be the best, some are mediocre and yes, some pad in order to get the chance to raid, or even get a pat on the back for being decent. right or wrong, it's just the way it is.

and no, this isn't meant to flame or set a discussion, its just my opinion, and it's the truth. this is just a game in the end, remember that..

If padding on Magaera is their only way to showcase their abilities as a warlock, then they've got other problems. It seems extremely shady to use number padding as a way to ensure your spot in a raid. Warlocks are already absurd right now. If you can't make the cut, then move on, don't hurt their progress because you need to fake your skills.

Yeah, this is a game, but it's more competitive for some people than it is for others. Soccer (Football for you Euro's <3) is just a game as well, but people fight/kill each other over it. Let's not pretend like this world is rainbows and cornflakes. People will take *anything* seriously.

Edited by Omaric

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