Damien

PvP Guides on Icy Veins - What do you want us to cover?

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While we do intend to do PvP guides during Mists of Pandaria, we are going to first focus on what we have been specializing up to this point: class guides and encounter guides. So we hope to start publishing PvP content between the release of Mists of Pandaria and the first patch of the expansion.

In this thread, we are going to analyze the demand and I will update the following list with what we will cover, taking into account replies you will make:

  • PvP versions of our PvE guides
  • Battleground guides: overview, objectives, common strategies
  • Arenas: overview, map details (with tips and tricks for positioning/running around), common strategies
  • PvP Achievements
  • Advice on interactions between classes
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We want the guides to be crucially intensionalized about the particular class, the powers which should be used and the particular class spells to be used with prior to opposite class ! Thats it , will adjacently help a lot.

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While we do intend to do PvP guides during Mists of Pandaria, we are going to first focus on what we have been specializing up to this point: class guides and encounter guides. So we hope to start publishing PvP content between the release of Mists of Pandaria and the first patch of the expansion.

In this thread, we are going to analyze the demand and I will update the following list with what we will cover, taking into account replies you will make:

  • PvP versions of our PvE guides
  • Battleground guides: overview, objectives, common strategies
  • Arenas: overview, map details (with tips and tricks for positioning/running around), common strategies

U have marked the proper points. Loved your praise for others !

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I would love to see your pvp guides include some strats for different team variations possibly, and the basic stuff you have for pve guides such as stats, gear theory.. i'm sure they will be great. keep up the good work.

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To build on Logicals post I would love a mini guide that lists each classes CC's and special "pvp" cool downs. Too many times do I have guildies and arena partners who only know about their own class, they rarely know what other classes can do in battlegrounds and arena.

I understand that if you play long enough and you are good enough then you pick this all up as you play, but for learners and beginners I think it would be a great thing to quickly see what a mages strengths and weaknesses are because you always struggle against them, or how to combat a specific combo tht you seem to have trouble against.

PvP always seems to bring out the elitist in players, and if you ever try and get information from the official forums you just get shot down straight away. A place to ask basic questions and have basic information for those that have no clue what to do but think they would find it fun would be great.

Trying to explain Alterac Valley match to anyone who hasn't done it before isn't always that easy, especially if they are brand new to pvp.

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Agreed with Logical and PeeLyon. When I first started out in PvP I was so confused about everything and den though I have been PvP'ing for a while now there are times were I'd like to have an easy to read and understand guide of what my arena partner can do in terms of cool downs etc. wold also like to see what class combos are best and maybe how you can each spec for arena to compliment eachother.

Also, may be silly but I would like to maybe see a guide on how you can get certain PvP achievements. I know many are by chance but some do require an element of strategy to obtain them. Would be very nice to see this.

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I've been thinking about the proper way to approach PvP guides (specifically, class guides meant for arena play) for a while.

Ideally, we could have a break-down of:

  • Talents and glyphs
  • Stats, gems and enchants
  • Abilities, cooldowns, "rotation"
  • Teamplay, cooperation
  • Countering the other team
This sounds good in theory (even though I don't have a PvP "career" to speak of, I have quite vast expertise with all those things), but the problem comes from the actual implementation.

For talents and glyphs, with Mists of Pandaria's talent system, it will probably be much harder to suggest a build. Most talents have both PvP and PvE implications, and it seems to me that often it's going to come down to a personal choice of the player. Same for glyphs, which have very little impact on gameplay now.

For stats, gems etc. this should be easy and not a problem.

The true problems come when discussing abilities, rotation, and countering your enemy. Anyone who has played arena at all seriously (even random battlegrounds, depending on how seriously you treat them) will know that you need to have every single ability in your spellbook on your action bars, keybound and ready to use in an instant. No longer can it be boiled down to 5-7 spells like in PvE (there are a few exceptions to this like Healing Rain, Holy Radiance and so on). Moreover, each of these spells has interactions that are very complex, when used against other players, and their effects are important to understand.

Then you have the issue that there is no such thing as a "rotation". Sure, you can theoretically make one, but in practice it is impossible to maintain it. Your DoTs will constantly be dispelled, your spells will be interrupted, you will be CC'd in one way or another for extended periods of time in the middle of your rotation, you will need to cast self-healing spells or hide behind pillars and so on.

Finally, I would absolutely love to be able to create some kind of interweaved list of abilities that counter one another, and the ways in which you can counter players like that. It's not enough to say that Disarm will remove the player's weapon, but it's important to say that you should save Disarm for when the Retribution Paladin uses Avenging Wrath etc. And then, this must be applied to the other 10 classes, for pretty much every spell. And then, you must understand when your own abilities can and will be countered by the other classes' abilities. And, going even further, you can't explain this in vacuum - your teammate's cooldowns, abilities etc. can make a world of difference to how you use your spells. Oh! And then, your opponent has a teammate as well, which you need to take into account. And if it's 3v3...

So, to sum up, I still haven't been able to figure out the ideal way to handle this. Not that we would have had time to do it until now, but once Mists of Pandaria things settle in a bit more, maybe then.

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I've been thinking about the proper way to approach PvP guides (specifically, class guides meant for arena play) for a while.

Ideally, we could have a break-down of:

  • Talents and glyphs
  • Stats, gems and enchants
  • Abilities, cooldowns, "rotation"
  • Teamplay, cooperation
  • Countering the other team
This sounds good in theory (even though I don't have a PvP "career" to speak of, I have quite vast expertise with all those things), but the problem comes from the actual implementation.

For talents and glyphs, with Mists of Pandaria's talent system, it will probably be much harder to suggest a build. Most talents have both PvP and PvE implications, and it seems to me that often it's going to come down to a personal choice of the player. Same for glyphs, which have very little impact on gameplay now.

For stats, gems etc. this should be easy and not a problem.

The true problems come when discussing abilities, rotation, and countering your enemy. Anyone who has played arena at all seriously (even random battlegrounds, depending on how seriously you treat them) will know that you need to have every single ability in your spellbook on your action bars, keybound and ready to use in an instant. No longer can it be boiled down to 5-7 spells like in PvE (there are a few exceptions to this like Healing Rain, Holy Radiance and so on). Moreover, each of these spells has interactions that are very complex, when used against other players, and their effects are important to understand.

Then you have the issue that there is no such thing as a "rotation". Sure, you can theoretically make one, but in practice it is impossible to maintain it. Your DoTs will constantly be dispelled, your spells will be interrupted, you will be CC'd in one way or another for extended periods of time in the middle of your rotation, you will need to cast self-healing spells or hide behind pillars and so on.

Finally, I would absolutely love to be able to create some kind of interweaved list of abilities that counter one another, and the ways in which you can counter players like that. It's not enough to say that Disarm will remove the player's weapon, but it's important to say that you should save Disarm for when the Retribution Paladin uses Avenging Wrath etc. And then, this must be applied to the other 10 classes, for pretty much every spell. And then, you must understand when your own abilities can and will be countered by the other classes' abilities. And, going even further, you can't explain this in vacuum - your teammate's cooldowns, abilities etc. can make a world of difference to how you use your spells. Oh! And then, your opponent has a teammate as well, which you need to take into account. And if it's 3v3...

So, to sum up, I still haven't been able to figure out the ideal way to handle this. Not that we would have had time to do it until now, but once Mists of Pandaria things settle in a bit more, maybe then.

I think that implementing something into future pvp guides discussing how different abilities counter one another would be a great idea. I've actually never seen a site that had that kind of information so you would definitely get alot of traffic with that alone. I'm sure with some more research the guides will be great, especially seeing all the things you want to implement into them.
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Vlad, i think that giving a few examples of what moves should be used and when would be great. I understand that you can't list every single possible combination, but likely examples, or breakdowns of combating against certain skills would be really nice.

A lot of it you do pick up just through playing, but like I said, so many don't know other classes and a quick 5-10 list of a classes key spells etc would go a long way for people to learn how to fight against them and what to look for.

I agree that that sort of basic information is hard to find on the Internet. So many guides are over complicated and a simple guide to give played a head start really would help. It would hopefully give people who "hate" pvp a bit of confidence to try it all out.

An explaination into this new PvP power etc would also be brilliant!

Edited by Peelyon
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PvP Guides on Icy Veins - What do you want us to cover?

Basically for me its as much detail as you put into the leveling guides, for instance where each point should go as and when you get it, what moves you should concentrate on using for each individual spec.

Edited by Asakura

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NOOOOOoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo dont tell people the secrets behind battling a rogue!!! Were the most hated class in history and it should stay that way!

on the other hand, feel FREE to write a comprehensive PvP guide that includes all the tips, hints, strategies, etc that we're all discussing that include all the OTHER classes........

Posted Image *vanish*

Edited by Nyxxiana
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Hehe... one of my friends plays a rogue and made me duel him for HOURS so that I would be able to function properly against them in arenas. It wasn't a fun experience...

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Hehe... one of my friends plays a rogue and made me duel him for HOURS so that I would be able to function properly against them in arenas. It wasn't a fun experience...

Funny you should say that, every time one of my friends starts getting into Arena, they use me as a training dummy Posted Image Im no PvP-er by ANY means, but even a Rogue in full PvE gear set up in combat spec is still enough to make even the most stoic warrior shudder with fear Posted Image

Last night, my Guild leader Vixxn (a pally) and i were getting on the boat to Northrend, and there were already three War Council Hordies on it.... as SOON as i boarded, they flew off XD Vixxn boarded right behind me laughing the whole way..... it felt good. REAL good..... i LOVE the sense of fear that being a Rogue strikes in people who are flagged PvP Posted Image Maybe it IS time i start getting into PvP more..... its funny, ive NEVER gotten into it , other than the obligitory defending of stormwind and battlegrounds before cata... i think im starting to feel the pull Posted Image

Edited by Nyxxiana

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Thank you for all the incredible work that you've done for everyone!

I went from a total noob (Started Feb 2012) and with the amazing help from icy-veins.com and some astounding people in WoW, I'm a level 85 Arcane Mage with ilvl 393 and getting some great experience in raids and dungeons.

I hope that the PvP area will be just as comprehensive and helpful, and I wish you all the best!

Cheers!

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Thank you for all the incredible work that you've done for everyone!

I went from a total noob (Started Feb 2012) and with the amazing help from icy-veins.com and some astounding people in WoW, I'm a level 85 Arcane Mage with ilvl 393 and getting some great experience in raids and dungeons.

I hope that the PvP area will be just as comprehensive and helpful, and I wish you all the best!

Cheers!

Thank you for this message! You started at the right time, I have a feeling that Mists of Pandaria will be an incredible and refreshing expansion.

You can count on us for making PvP guides in the same vein as our PvE guides.

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I think one of the reasons I've found PvP to be so difficult is that there are no satisfactory guides for beginners. And there are certainly no guides for the most common experience of world PvP -- which will be all the more prevalent in MoP.

While there is plenty of advice regarding how to fight this class or this spec, and lots of discussions about arena teams, there is little advice available about what to do when you're getting ganked while questing. For me, the primary concern is how to survive while questing and leveling my toons. This has been less of a problem in Cata, but MoP promises to bring world PvP back once more.

So, what do I do when I find myself rooted, or stunned, or otherwise ambushed? What ought to be my first response when I have no idea who or what it is that has attacked me? Due to its fundamental principle of blind surprise, world PvP, in some ways, seems to be inherently different from the BGs or arenas.

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... common experience of world PvP -- which will be all the more prevalent in MoP.

...but MoP promises to bring world PvP back once more.

I have heard others say this but can find no information on MoP bringing back world pvp. What are you referring to exactly? Is this something applicable only for pvp realms that I simply don't know about? Just curious. Posted Image

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I think they mentioned on PvP servers they would nerf city guards in the hope it would encourage players to attack them.

Dont think they have anything else "planned" though.

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I also think another reason is the need to go out into the world to camp rare pets for pet battles. This only applies to PvP servers but it should make it interesting.

Also, the world bosses which have meaningful loot might spawn some nice battles on balanced servers.

And I believe the developers said that they had more ideas/plans to further spur on world PvP.

I'm excited.

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Thanks for the answers guys! I was a little worried about my pve server for a minute there Posted Image. I'm on Skywall and Alliance outnumbers Horde by a bunch and all the great pvp'ers are Alliance.

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I just want basic ideas of how the other classes play. Give me the basic spells and the cooldown spells used in PvP.

Sample:

==========================

Subtlety rogue:

The Very Basics

- will start in stealth and either silence (garrote) or stun (cheap shot) you out of it

- combo points will be built using basic builders - backstab if he can get behind you or wants extra damage, hemorrage for faster combo points

+ when rogues have enough combo points, they will do one of a few things

- use eviscerate for a good amount of damage

- use kidney shot for a (up to) 6 second stun

- use slice and dice, a personal buff which gives them energy faster

- use recuperate, a personal buff which gives a minor (1% / sec) heal

- use rupture, a minor bleed which makes the rest of their moves do 20% more damage.

Play Style

Offense

- rogues generally will need to have 2 buffs rolling to be dangerous on their own in a sustained environment. Lining up for a kill means starting Rupture, Slice and Dice before starting the big damage sequence. If a rogue has been out of combat for a while, you generally won't be in too much trouble if you have decent PvP gear.

- the big damage sequence happens when the rogue can stack the following conditions:

- you don't have a trinket

- rogue has slice and dice on himself

- rogue has rupture on you

- shadow blades is off cooldown

- shadow dance is off cooldown.

In this scenario, the rogue can land a 6-second Kidney Shot (stun) on you, and with extra energy from slice and dice, extra damage from rupture, extra combo points and damage coming from shadow blades, and the ability to ambush from shadow dance, you will be hurting.

CC

- rogue cc's come in the quick cooldown, long cooldown, and stealth varieties:

- quick: gouge - 15 second cooldown, 5 second disorient that breaks on damage (except the rogue's bleeds/poisons if he talents for it). Usually has to happen from front, but some rogues may glyph this to allow it to be done from any direction.

- quick: kick - 15 second cooldown, a basic interrupt.

- quick: kidney shot - 24 second cooldown, variable time stun, 2 to 6 seconds

- quick: dismantle - 1 minute cooldown, 8 second disarm

- long: blind - 3 minute cooldown, an 8 second disorient that breaks on damage (except the rogue's bleeds/poisons if he talents for it. Glyph will also clear dots on target).

- long: smoke bomb - 8 second AoE "pillar". Cannot cast spells into or out of it.

- stealth: sap - 8 second disorient, breaks on damage. Only useable when target is out of combat.

- stealth: cheap shot - 4 (5 glyphed) second stun

- stealth: garrote - 5 second silence

- stealth: distract - turns your character which ever way the rogue distracts you to. Only useable when target is out of combat.

Defense

Rogue defenses come in a few flavors: passive, CC, healing, and cooldown

- passive devenses come from having a parry chance inherent to being a rogue, and a high dodge rate

- CC defenses are shown above. With a decent array of CCs avaialble rogues are decent at stopping damage before it happens

- healing comes from recuperate. This used to be a MUCH stronger ability. As it is, rogues can use it, but it's not nearly as important a priority or helpful as it was in cataclysm

- cooldown abilities used in PvP:

- combat readiness (up to 10% damage reduction stacking another 10% each hit until a max of 50%): When a rogue pops this, don't touch him unless he's at a teeny amount of health. Let it wear off after 10 seconds and then beat him down. Visible effect = red swirling stary-things around rogue.

- evasion: Dramatically increases dodge chance. Ranged/spell stun the rogue or attack him from behind. Visible effect = transparent look to character model.

- cloak of shadows: spell effects won't affect the rogue. Rogue can use this defensively to maintain his health, or offensively to avoid most CCs while tunneling a target. Visible effect = shadow-form-like effect on character model.

- vanish: immediately stealths the rogue and prevents all damage for 3 seconds. Visible effect = "none" ;)

Other Tips

- Use Gladiatorlossa or other mod to let you know when a rogue invokes shadow dance and/or shadow blades. When he does this, he is looking to put a hurting on you. The other common use of shadow dance is to be able to use CC on many people at once. Since shadow dance allows him to use stealth moves out of stealth, he can cheapshot (stun) multiple people in a row without the normal cooldowns.

- Rogue openers are more dangerous than they were in the past due to the first talent tier. Nothing special to know about in particular, look at that tier if you're interested.

- If a rogue has a ranged interrupt, he doesn't have the combat readiness damage mitigator or damage debuff after stuns - those are mutually exclusive talents.

- If you see a rogue casting feint a lot, he probably has feint talented, meaning that he's taking 30% less damage for 5 seconds every time he casts it. If this happens, see if you can pump damage into him after a stun/cc where you know that the 5 second reduction has worn off.

- the following are mutually exclusive: Shadowstep (teleports to a friendly or enemy target) and Burst of speed - breaks roots and/or acts as a sprint. Can be chained as long as rogue has energy. If you see him teleport, you're free to root him and feel safe outside of his cooldowns. If you see him break roots, you're safe using Z-axis barriers.

- the last tier of talents for the rogue are all relatively interesting/valuable, but for a basic guide on rogues, you won't play too different regardless of which they took. For advanced play, it absolutely matters.

- Fairy fire is the rogue's bane. Long-lasting dots are pretty close to being that bad, but faerie fire is horrible. The best ways to piss off a rogue are:

- Use Faerie Fire

- Use bleeds

- Long lasting dots

- Kite him (especially since cooldowns are longer now and mobility is worse than in cata)

- Make him regret his talent choice. If you see him breaking roots a lot, use Z-axis obstacles to taunt him. If you see him teleporting, continuously slow and root him.

==========================

It's a pretty bad guide, and I'm sure it's filled with misinformation like exact cooldown times and similar stuff. And I'm sure I suck at rogue. But if I had a cheat-sheet like that for every class/spec done by a person who was actually decent at his class/spec, I'd feel much more comfortable in PvP, especially since MoP changed everything around. Again.

Edited by rivlel
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Thread Resurrection in Progress. (Input cast time bar here)

Just about every information guide only addresses Max strat. i.e. The most damage or healing in whatever spec. They usually do not take into consideration the other specs people might have fun playing, but need help to maximize the spec.

My suggestion would be to have a thread in either the pvp section or in the class section with a link in the pvp section on how to play gem, reforge, enchant each spec in each enviroment. That would mean 6 threads per class.

Rogue

Combat PvE and PvP

Assassination PvE and PvP

Subtelty PvE and PvP

I know this is a lot of work with all the classes, but maybe enlist help from those in the forum community.

Thank you for your consideration.

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I'm going to necro an old post since I didn't even know it was discussed at some point...

Man PvP guides would be great but I reckon it'll take alot more work than the PvE guides simply because of the amount of variables.

I'd Suggest looking into Arena Junkies and using their guide templates for ideas. The main things people want to see is what to reforge, hit, expertise etc. For instance most clothies have 4% dodge (I think, CBA to check), so melee / hunters should reforge expertise to 4% then stop. Spell Pen is a thing of the past, but that was at some point the most common question.

Macro lists, mouseovers macros, focus target macros, CD macros particularly to stack stuff that isn't on the GCD. Along with an explanation on how to use them ofc.

After the basic stuff, listing viable comps for each class, along with the stupid abreviations and a small explanation would be good (KFC, TSG blablabla).

General specific arena tips on LOS, tricks etc... For instance in Ruins of Lorderon as a DK (or any class with similar AoE) you can run straight to the tomb if you are up against a stealth team and drop DnD. I've broken alot of Rogues, Ferals, RestoD's, Mages out like that.

Viable RBG comps for all specs. For example (I haven't done any RBG's this season) Feral, Arms, Ret etc really struggled to find any sort of RBG team in 4.3. There were viable teams that ran them, for instance one of the highest rated players in the world was running Ret in 4.3, but just about every numbnut and his grandma wanted to roll a dotcleave for 3 simple reasons, 1.) It worked 2.) It was infamous, everyone knew it. 3.) You could be half brainless to do it, just dot, los, cc.

Mandatory addons such as Gladius / BGT ? Juked and how to configure them.

The list goes on... x)

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Another good one would be to have, for a beginners guide, what gear is best to be picked up first in order to best suit your needs as well as the best ways to initially obtain Conquest Points to obtain better gear and be stronger overall in PvP, followed with the basic macro's you'll want to have for each class, strengths and weaknesses, how to better understand them and work with them as well as to better defend yourself against your own weaknesses.

Those would be really good ones to start off with, as well as comps for each class and what works and what usually doesn't work.

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      Greetings fellow Travelers!   The Dungeon Crawler Network (DCN) has spread its footprint back into the World of Warcraft with this fantastic expansion, Legion.  We appreciate the DNA of The Burning Crusade and Wrath of the Lich King present, and are overcome with passion to play the game at the level which we used to.   We are involved in a multitude of MMOs, JRPGs, ARPGs, and the like. If it involves grinding through dungeons to get gear, reputation, and slay internet dragons, we are involved. Our roots are in the Elder Scrolls, and then the Elder Scrolls Online. You may have heard some of our podcasts, "Tales of Tamriel", "Chocobo Raiders", "Tavern Talk", or the "Midnight Hour" on iTunes in which we the guild, discuss multiple topics to include game development, theory crafting, lore, end-game raiding or PvP content, and even interviews with game developers or other prominent community members. Our leadership facilitates positive in and out-of-game experiences, and everything they and we do is part and parcel to that. We appreciate the games the developers give us, and the guild is the symbol of our many appreciations of that. Our leadership is versed in end-game PvE and PvP content ranging from EQ, Planetside, Eve, ESO, FFXIV, and of course, World of Warcraft.   Our primary objectives at this time for the Wings of Fate are as follows:   -Community development. The <Wings of Fate> are not just a WoW guild, but a community of mature gamers that play games across the full spectrum of genres from MMOs to ARPGs. This is accomplished through the use of Discord, getting to know your team mates, and being an adult in every aspect of gameplay and personal conduct.   -Enjoyment of World of Warcraft and enhancing the player experience, without sacrificing performance. What this means is that while our top priority is to have a good time and cut up, we don't waste time on bosses or bang our heads against a wall if composition/performance isn't up to snuff - we decisively address these issues.   -Establishing additional Mythic+ groups capable of M 7+ (M+5 is about the starting point, but we can help get you there if you aren't already!)   -Finishing current heroic raid content and moving to Mythic raiding if natural guild population growth and performance are conducive, continued farming of M 5+, Karazhan, Trial of Valor, and then the Nighthold!   -Establishing the <Wings of Fate> PvP footprint and what it looks like. We have a guild PvP officer who is in the process of developing PvP events structured around what the guild members want, and other guild activities. At this time we participate primarily in casual PvP events but the intent is to do rated content once the PvP footprint is established.   Guild events are as follows:   -Mythic+ Dungeons daily during the evenings (Currently 7+)   -Raids are Friday and Saturday nights from 8:30pm-11:30pm EST - we often go a bit later in order to finish a raid clear or if we are close to completion on a progression fight Optional raid night for "farm content clearing" is Wednesday, 9-11pm EST.   -PvP Nights are currently Thursdays, from 9pm EST - 11pm EST - additional nights will be implemented by our PvP officer once he ascertains from guild members what nights are best and what doesn't interfere with other guild events.   Now let's talk about what we're looking for and what we offer YOU. We are looking for community members who are here for more than just enjoying the World of Warcraft, but appreciate theory crafting, game discussion, upcoming developments, lore, and game mechanics. We are a community of gamers interested in a variety of games - Joining <Wings of Fate> is more than just joining a WoW guild, you're joining a family and established community.   What we offer you:   -A dedicated discord server that is constantly populated with members of the community, guild leadership, and everything in between. We talk upcoming games we're hyped about, raid mechanics, and everything already previously discussed. It's a fun place.   -Guild leadership that understands the importance of progression, and understands constraints/limitations. A prime reason for us establishing Mythic dungeon-only groups. We've identified while a lot of people will want to raid, just not everyone has the time to dedicate to it.   -An established and positive community. Many of us came to DCN for other games as WoW-WoD wasn't something many of us were interested in. Legion is changing that. We have many folks already participating in guild strategy development for upcoming content releases- and there's always people around on Discord getting involved with other games and discussions.   -Podcasts! As mentioned before we are involved in a multitude of other MMORPGs, and we participate in community building in a big way. It's only a matter of time before we dig deeper into what Legion will be offering us!   What we're looking for:   -Active players interested in end-game progression - but not bleeding edge. We are always pushing the football down the field, but if you're looking for a guild that is raiding three to five nights a week to defeat cutting-edge content, we aren't it. At least for now anyway.   -Players interested in the understanding and discussion of player/game mechanics. This one is huge. Know your class, and if you aren't quite there yet, don't be afraid to ask for help or guidance! DCN is populated with some incredibly knowledgeable MMORPG players and we can't facilitate progression without developing our knowledge of in-game mechanics.   -Positive, mature, and goal-oriented players. Progression can get annoying, and wiping forty or fifty times for one reason or another can really get to someone. It's a part of progression. Maturity is a must-have, we are an 18+ guild. No, that doesn't mean we can't sniff out a 30 year-old child either. Criticism can feel harsh, but we only do it to improve our guild performance as a whole. This is a two-way street.   Thanks for taking the time to read this post!   Feel free to contact me in-game @ Fastidious#1897 , and stop by the DCN Website @ www.dungeoncrawlernetwork.com to check out some of our Podcasts or get a better idea of what this organization is all about! -Steven "Fastidious"