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Tsikinator

Goto spec for CM+ / Raiding

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Hey fellow rogues!

Which in your opinion is the go to spec for Raiding or CM+?

After reading the guides and some theorycraft sites, I am convinced for CM+ Outlaw is the default spec, but there are many conflicting opinions about Raiding.

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I would expect Outlaw to remain the best for the time being; it has lower lows but higher highs on single target, and has the ability to cleave / AoE without changing specs.

Sub scales very well though, and I wouldn't be surprised to see that being the top choice for Single Target fights come the next raid tier.

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I've done for now only one Mythic+ in Assassination and I must say it exceeds all expectations and I have to deny this spec is behind in any aspect. with 827 iLvL I am able to maintain about 180k DPS on multi target and bursting on singles for about 350kish with only 1 Gold Trait

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Both the specs are viable, Outlaw just performs a little better.

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assa is more fun to me and has slightly more dps on singletargets in my experience.

i never reached 300k+ dps on a boss with outlaw but oh buy do i own trashmobs with this specc.

like carne said, both viable with outlaw being a little more chill and slighty better overall id say.

I got my dreadblades and kingslayers at lvl 16 (i know thats stupid to lvl both, because of the exponential AP increase) and i swap aound like i dont know :D

 

Cant decide what to REALLY main

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8 minutes ago, Zupsero said:

assa is more fun to me and has slightly more dps on singletargets in my experience.

i never reached 300k+ dps on a boss with outlaw but oh buy do i own trashmobs with this specc.

like carne said, both viable with outlaw being a little more chill and slighty better overall id say.

I got my dreadblades and kingslayers at lvl 16 (i know thats stupid to lvl both, because of the exponential AP increase) and i swap aound like i dont know :D

 

Cant decide what to REALLY main

I'm sure it won't impact you too much having done both artifacts, honestly. I've done it similarly on my druid to fill two roles.

Right now, you have 2 artifacts at level 16. If you had focused on one, it would be at level 19 and the other at 1. I'll take the two at 16, unless you're 100% sure you're only going to be playing one spec.

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37 minutes ago, Zupsero said:

assa is more fun to me and has slightly more dps on singletargets in my experience.

i never reached 300k+ dps on a boss with outlaw but oh buy do i own trashmobs with this specc.

like carne said, both viable with outlaw being a little more chill and slighty better overall id say.

I got my dreadblades and kingslayers at lvl 16 (i know thats stupid to lvl both, because of the exponential AP increase) and i swap aound like i dont know :D

 

Cant decide what to REALLY main

For the time being, Outlaw is absolutely the way to go. It has a higher possible ceiling on Single Target, and better all around performance on cleave / AoE fights, and a toolkit that is more useful in a majority of situations than Sin; if you're looking to pull the best numbers you'll be playing Outlaw pretty much exclusively for the time being

If you were going to pick a second spec, I would recommend that Sub be it.

Moving into Mythic raiding and later tiers, Sub will begin to outpace Sin by a pretty significant margin, but Outlaw will still be ahead of them both overall. I sincerely doubt that Sin will be viable later in the expansion, since it doesn't scale very well at all due to both Mastery and Haste being effectively useless 

All of that being said, if you aren't looking to push the higher level content and just want to play a spec that you find fun, feel free to play Assassination. Being good at a spec that is less optimal and enjoying the time that you spend in the game is going to be better overall than forcing yourself to do something that you aren't comfortable with and haven't mastered.

23 minutes ago, Blainie said:

I'm sure it won't impact you too much having done both artifacts, honestly. I've done it similarly on my druid to fill two roles.

Right now, you have 2 artifacts at level 16. If you had focused on one, it would be at level 19 and the other at 1. I'll take the two at 16, unless you're 100% sure you're only going to be playing one spec.

The first handful of points aren't terribly expensive so this is always an option for the time being.

As I said above though, Sin doesn't scale very well, and by the time you start picking up better gear it will be outpaced by Sub as well as Outlaw. I'd recommend focusing on Outlaw for now if you want to pull the best possible numbers in any situation.

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Just now, Carrn said:

The first handful of points aren't terribly expensive so this is always an option for the time being.

As I said above though, Sin doesn't scale very well, and by the time you start picking up better gear it will be outpaced by Sub as well as Outlaw. I'd recommend focusing on Outlaw for now if you want to pull the best possible numbers in any situation.

Yeah, until rank 20 or so, it's pretty simple to maintain 2 artifacts. I believe for Hunters it's almost a "requirement" so to speak, since they need BM for Mythic+ and MM for raiding.

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what exactly do u mean by outpacing? U mean golden traits, legendarys and bis trinkets etc?

im at ilvl 849 and ran all dungeons available in mythic. i still think at the moment i deal way more singletarget dps with sin. Only if have 2 or 3 really good rolls with the bones in a row, i can compete with sin dps. 

example: i experience the following scenario quite often with the outlaw rouge

The fight starts, i burn cooldowns at appropriate times i think. And after these are done im rolling the bones get 1 or 2 meh buffs, no energy, autoattacking the boss for 1 or even 2 seconds. ill mark of death (pretty low cooldown) and reroll getting 1 or 2 meh buffs again. This feels like 5-10 seconds of being useless.

these droughts feel so frustrating.

 

that its by far the best cleave build und has the best defense for raid or pve environment is obvious, we dont need to argue about that. But im interested if im doing something wrong in my rotation or something, because like i said, i rarely top 200k dps on singletarget bossfights, while sin performs outstanding at the moment in this situation. Only my experience

 

i think imma try out the sub specc aswell

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51 minutes ago, Zupsero said:

what exactly do u mean by outpacing? U mean golden traits, legendarys and bis trinkets etc?

Outpaced generally refers to gearing. When you start going into raids, getting high item level pieces and therefore more stats from your gear, other specs become better. 

53 minutes ago, Zupsero said:

example: i experience the following scenario quite often with the outlaw rouge

The fight starts, i burn cooldowns at appropriate times i think. And after these are done im rolling the bones get 1 or 2 meh buffs, no energy, autoattacking the boss for 1 or even 2 seconds. ill mark of death (pretty low cooldown) and reroll getting 1 or 2 meh buffs again. This feels like 5-10 seconds of being useless.

these droughts feel so frustrating.

Right now, you need to remember how short the fights are compared to the ones you'll experience in the raids. If you get unlucky with Outlaw rolls (it can happen), it will impact your DPS a lot more in a 45 second fight than in a 5-10 minute fight.

54 minutes ago, Zupsero said:

that its by far the best cleave build und has the best defense for raid or pve environment is obvious, we dont need to argue about that. But im interested if im doing something wrong in my rotation or something, because like i said, i rarely top 200k dps on singletarget bossfights, while sin performs outstanding at the moment in this situation. Only my experience

For this part, you'll need to show us what you do through some form of log. We can't judge your rotation until we actually see it!

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6 hours ago, Zupsero said:

what exactly do u mean by outpacing? U mean golden traits, legendarys and bis trinkets etc?

im at ilvl 849 and ran all dungeons available in mythic. i still think at the moment i deal way more singletarget dps with sin. Only if have 2 or 3 really good rolls with the bones in a row, i can compete with sin dps. 

example: i experience the following scenario quite often with the outlaw rouge

The fight starts, i burn cooldowns at appropriate times i think. And after these are done im rolling the bones get 1 or 2 meh buffs, no energy, autoattacking the boss for 1 or even 2 seconds. ill mark of death (pretty low cooldown) and reroll getting 1 or 2 meh buffs again. This feels like 5-10 seconds of being useless.

these droughts feel so frustrating.

 

that its by far the best cleave build und has the best defense for raid or pve environment is obvious, we dont need to argue about that. But im interested if im doing something wrong in my rotation or something, because like i said, i rarely top 200k dps on singletarget bossfights, while sin performs outstanding at the moment in this situation. Only my experience

 

i think imma try out the sub specc aswell

Pretty much what Blainie said, but I can go into a little more detail if you'd like

By outpacing, I meant that it will eventually do more damage than Assassination. I'll break it down into a few points based on generic Sims. These Sims are intended to be for boss fights but aren't super long - they were run on 5 and a half minute sims +- 30%

  • As things stand right now (at 840 item level), Sin does more damage than Sub, by a small but not insignificant margin. We're talking 289k (Sin) vs 263k (Sub). Outlaw, on the other hand, pulls an average of about 323k.
    • Outlaw's damage is unreliable, which is why I'm using average results from Sims for each spec. Outlaw has the potential to pull an absolutely ludicrous 454k in the same 840 gear, although this is presumably rolling 6 buffs for the entire fight
  • Moving into Heroic raid gear (865 item level), Sin jumps up to 344k average dps with Sub coming in a little closer at 326k average. Outlaw still leads with 387k for Single Target, although again this is relatively unreliable.
  • Once Mythic gear (880 + Legendary) is reached, we see things start to change pretty drastically. Sin increases to 388k, while Sub jumps way up to pull an average of 437k. Outlaw's unbalanced average is up to 485k as well

You need to take the Outlaw numbers with a grain of saltWhile I do expect results that are, on average, above both other Rogue specs, you could easily see results lower than that. 

The biggest reason why Sub will catch up to and outpace Sin is that Sin's damage is crippled by only having 2 worthwhile stats. Since so much of the specs damage is in bleeds (roughly 50%, between Rupture and Garrote), Mastery does almost nothing. Haste does almost nothing either, so there isn't a whole lot of gear that is actually a big benefit for Sin. Both Sub and Outlaw, on the other hand, benefit from more than just the two, and so get larger benefits from better gear.

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10 hours ago, Carrn said:

 

  • As things stand right now (at 840 item level), Sin does more damage than Sub, by a small but not insignificant margin. We're talking 289k (Sin) vs 263k (Sub). Outlaw, on the other hand, pulls an average of about 323k.
    • Outlaw's damage is unreliable, which is why I'm using average results from Sims for each spec. Outlaw has the potential to pull an absolutely ludicrous 454k in the same 840 gear, although this is presumably rolling 6 buffs for the entire fight

Can someone show me a video of an Outlaw rogue pulling 323k in 840 ilvl gear because this seems unfathomable to me and I think I'm going about playing this spec wrong.

 

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4 hours ago, Xenon said:

 

I don't have a video, but that's what Sims show is a theoretical average. I would imagine that it's a little exaggerated due to the upper end outliers being so high (454k in 840 gear is higher than both Sin and Sub in 880 gear, for comparison)

It's not impossible though, by any means. If you roll 6 buffs on the start of a boss fight with all your cooldowns popped you're going to be doing a truly insane amount of damage.

The important part of playing Outlaw is to correctly manage RtB; there's more to the spec, obviously, but there is a certain amount of luck involved. If you want to grab some combat logs or post your Armory link, I can have a look and see if there are any suggestions I can make for you. Be sure that you're correctly re-rolling RtB and managing your cooldowns

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3 hours ago, Carrn said:

 

I think I'll take you up on that but I don't have any logs or anything, however I think this is a link to my armoury http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/character/aszune/Therlee/advanced its not quite up to date with my items I've since gotten ilvl 846. 

But what would really help me are some RtB specifics and guidelines for using Adrenaline Rush and CotDB.

I'm currently thinking its only worth using both simultaneously if you roll True Bearing or/and a combination of Crit, increased Sabre Slash proc chance and Grand Melee. Whereas it better to use only Adrenaline Rush if you roll Broadsides + whatever or only use CotDB if you roll Energy Regen + anything but Broadsides. I'm also not certain about the optimal number of combo points for rolling RtB because on one hand spending less points means you can reroll more times faster however spending more points means you have a larger window to use the buffs in a good situation. Anyhow I hope this gives you a bit of an idea of what you could help me with and thank you for replying.

Edited by Xenon

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7 hours ago, Xenon said:

I think I'll take you up on that but I don't have any logs or anything, however I think this is a link to my armoury http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/character/aszune/Therlee/advanced its not quite up to date with my items I've since gotten ilvl 846. 

But what would really help me are some RtB specifics and guidelines for using Adrenaline Rush and CotDB.

I'm currently thinking its only worth using both simultaneously if you roll True Bearing or/and a combination of Crit, increased Sabre Slash proc chance and Grand Melee. Whereas it better to use only Adrenaline Rush if you roll Broadsides + whatever or only use CotDB if you roll Energy Regen + anything but Broadsides. I'm also not certain about the optimal number of combo points for rolling RtB because on one hand spending less points means you can reroll more times faster however spending more points means you have a larger window to use the buffs in a good situation. Anyhow I hope this gives you a bit of an idea of what you could help me with and thank you for replying.

Okay so your Armory looks good - you've got the correct talents picked up

Roll the Bones is a very intricate spell, with lots of decision making to do based around which buff(s) you roll and when. Since there is absolutely no way to control this, you need to really pay attention to a lot of different things. If you would like to make a new thread to talk about RtB I'd be glad to do it, but that's getting away from the topic at hand and I don't really want to clutter this thread with a different discussion.

In short though, always roll 5+ CP RtB, and always fish for 2+ buffs.

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Thanks for the responses directed towards me guys, really appreciate it!

324k dps on a 5+ minute fight is hard for me to beleive tho. i seem to do something pretty wrong, when 300+k is my absoloute top when i have insane rolling luck. hard to imagine that this is an average for raids on the same ilvl i wear. curious to see that

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On 9/11/2016 at 8:27 AM, Zupsero said:

Thanks for the responses directed towards me guys, really appreciate it!

324k dps on a 5+ minute fight is hard for me to beleive tho. i seem to do something pretty wrong, when 300+k is my absoloute top when i have insane rolling luck. hard to imagine that this is an average for raids on the same ilvl i wear. curious to see that

Like I said the average is likely thrown off because the top end is so much higher than the rest. If you're running 300k when you roll well, I'd say you're probably doing alright. 

If you'd like some specific help or advice, grab some combat logs and post them in a new thread here and I'll have a look at them

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Ugh...I must be doing something terrible...I only sometimes break 200k dps with 843 gear....my biggest gripe is there seems to be so many dungeon bosses that break melee uptime, which tanks my dps considerably. :(

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1 hour ago, Spicyboy said:

Ugh...I must be doing something terrible...I only sometimes break 200k dps with 843 gear....my biggest gripe is there seems to be so many dungeon bosses that break melee uptime, which tanks my dps considerably. :(

I suffer from this too mate, I think the solution is to look at to your dps in segments and the overall damage done for the whole fight because with some of the mechanics you simply can't maintain 100% uptime but ensuring you burst as much as you can during the time you're DPSing, which mean the real challenge is picking the perfect spots to use your cooldowns.

Edited by Xenon
Grammatical Error

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3 hours ago, Spicyboy said:

Ugh...I must be doing something terrible...I only sometimes break 200k dps with 843 gear....my biggest gripe is there seems to be so many dungeon bosses that break melee uptime, which tanks my dps considerably. :(

 

1 hour ago, Xenon said:

I suffer from this too mate, I think the solution is to look at to your dps in segments and the overall damage done for the whole fight because with some of the mechanics you simply can't maintain 100% uptime but ensuring you burst as much as you can during the time you're DPSing, which mean the real challenge is picking the perfect spots to use your cooldowns.

If you guys are looking for help with your damage, take some logs of fights and post them in a new thread here. I'll have a look at them and we'll see how you can improve

Sadly there isn't much that I can help with if you don't have some kind of log to show me, because I can't see what you're doing for each fight

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8 hours ago, Carrn said:

 

If you guys are looking for help with your damage, take some logs of fights and post them in a new thread here. I'll have a look at them and we'll see how you can improve

Sadly there isn't much that I can help with if you don't have some kind of log to show me, because I can't see what you're doing for each fight

I appreciate the offer but I think right at this moment I've got to work on my fight understanding to time my cooldowns well so I've got several things to work on that I'm aware of then when I've stagnated I'll definitely hit you/the forums up for advice to iron out my rotation!

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what i think most people overlook in their comparison to the simcast, is that the simcast takes pots etc into account. at least for rouges if u watch into the detailed gear etc. you will recognize they have the elixir of the seventh demon and pot of the old gods consumed. which would boost your dps stas on the simcast obviously.

 

at least thats what i was overlooking in the beginnning. Might takes a lil panic off of you :D

Edited by Zupsero
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1 hour ago, Zupsero said:

what i think most people overlook in their comparison to the simcast, is that the simcast takes pots etc into account. at least for rouges if u watch into the detailed gear etc. you will recognize they have the elixir of the seventh demon and pot of the old gods consumed. which would boost your dps stas on the simcast obviously.

 

at least thats what i was overlooking in the beginnning. Might takes a lil panic off of you :D

Yeah that's correct, but people should also be using Potions and Flasks regularly

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Hi Carrn, is the in-game combat log all you need? 

 

Also, I cannot find much info on the Old gods potion...some people think it is bugged and doesnt do much damage or any at all. I used it once and didnt even notice anything happening. Might have missed it in the heat of battle. 

It would be handy to know the duration of the effect, if anyone knows?

Edited by Spicyboy
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10 hours ago, Spicyboy said:

Hi Carrn, is the in-game combat log all you need? 

 

Also, I cannot find much info on the Old gods potion...some people think it is bugged and doesnt do much damage or any at all. I used it once and didnt even notice anything happening. Might have missed it in the heat of battle. 

It would be handy to know the duration of the effect, if anyone knows?

Yeah, but the raw combat log is hard to read. I suggest using this site to collect and log your fights.

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