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Auyssaelre

Can players jump to ToT without completing ToES?

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I noticed in the patch notes that players no longer have to complete HoF for raid progression. But when i looked at Terrace it said nothing about that they no longer have to kill Sha of Fear, which was really confusing for me. Did they do that to ALL of the MoP raids, or is it just HoF? Can the guild raids who havent completed HoF, or ToES, for that matter, still jump to ToT?

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Edited by Auyssaelre

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There are no raiding pre-requisites for Throne of Thunder. You can zone in the second that you hit level 90.

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As confirmation; I'd never done ToES before I set foot in ToT (much less killed Sha of Fear). :)

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I've seen plenty of guilds, especially on lower population servers that only had 6-8 bosses down total last tier, and jumped right into ToT when it came out. most of them got Jin'Rokh pretty easy, but are still only like 2-6 bosses in after almost 3 months, but that really isn't much worse than they were last tier.

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There are no raiding pre-requisites for Throne of Thunder. You can zone in the second that you hit level 90.

Well not exactly accurate, doubtful if ANYONE has 470 gear when they hit 90.. but I see what you mean.. Those lower level RAIDS do help with the transition to higher level RAIDS, so ToT is designed to first go through lower levels and progress up to them.

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If you're in a raid with people who want you there, you can raid ToT no matter whether you've just dinged 90 or you've cleared everything on HC25 world first. ilvl has nothing to do with entering Normal mode raids.

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Well not exactly accurate, doubtful if ANYONE has 470 gear when they hit 90.. but I see what you mean.. Those lower level RAIDS do help with the transition to higher level RAIDS, so ToT is designed to first go through lower levels and progress up to them.

Actually it is EXACTLY accurate.
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most of tot on reg doesnt require great gear. i dont remember the exact numbers my group's first kills where at, but sharp execution of mechanics can get you past a LOT of fights. the fights that gave us the most trouble were durumu and iron qon. iron qon is a pretty legit gear check since that final phase will get you if youre not quick, but if your dps is low you can get 2 hero's in before enrage.

when we were having some trouble with durumu people said it was a major dps check, but its really just a coordination check. we considered the absolute max life drain stack at 3 and our record low dps for a kill on him was 632k group dps. (in ten man, 3 heals 2 tanks)

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actaully it is 480 to enter ToT LFR if thats what u were thkning of, as of normal i dont think there is any ilvl req. on the other matter they also removed the requirement that u have to kill empress to enter ToeS as well.

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The original topic is referring to normal mode progression. This is clearly indicated by the question regarding if Empress needed to be killed before entering ToES. Since this USED to be a pre-requisite for normal mode but is no longer required, yet still required for LFR, then I drew the assumption he was asking if he needed to clear T14 raids before entering T15 normal raids. It should be widely known that 480 is the required item level for T15 LFR.

There is absolutely no item level requirement for normals. You can ding 90 and instantly get summoned into and receive credit for a Heroic Ra-den kill. All it takes is good friends or a little gold.

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My guild had some disheartening woes with slow recruitment in t14, and we never completed the teir. We were 6/6, 3/6, 0/4 when we stepped in to ToT. We cleared 12/12 normal mode only three weeks after we filled our raid group's core spots.

As such, there are no ilvl requirements to enter the raid, or even, as posted above, to be summoned in fresh off the 90 ding and carried through a Ra-Den kill. All you need is enough survivability, healing, and damage output to kill the relatively easy normal modes. The gear can be found in HoF/ToES, or better from t15 LFR and Shado-Pan Assault rep. HoF and ToES are, therefore, entirely skippable, though it isn't a bad idea to do them while waiting on some t15 rep/LFR drops if you feel you need more gear for tanks, healers, and/or DPS.

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actaully it is 480 to enter ToT LFR if thats what u were thkning of, as of normal i dont think there is any ilvl req. on the other matter they also removed the requirement that u have to kill empress to enter ToeS as well.

Also normal, or heroic.. you STILL need to meet an iLVL requirement.. you can't enter a Normal RAID with any old gear score, that makes no sense.. there is a reason blizzard uses the "tiered" approach, LFR, then Normal, then Heroic..

That's why iLVLs are important to give some semblance of how well you can perform as you progress..

Take ANY newly dinged 90 toon, fly to ToT instance (don't need a group for this) and try to enter.. it will immediately notify you that you don't meet the minimal requirements to enter...

I KNOW because I tried when MoP first came out (for HoF and ToES) .. I had to "progress" first to the proper iLVL

Edited by rjparker1

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Actually it is EXACTLY accurate.

Well to be EXACTLY accurate means that when you "Ding" 90 you would be at 470 gear score required to enter ToT, that is feasibly impossible.. since you can't even get the gear in heroics to get to that iLVL until you get to 90 in the FIRST place.

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Well to be EXACTLY accurate means that when you "Ding" 90 you would be at 470 gear score required to enter ToT, that is feasibly impossible.. since you can't even get the gear in heroics to get to that iLVL until you get to 90 in the FIRST place.

It's 460 to get into LFR for MSV. It's 470 to get into LFR for HoF and ToES. It's 480 to get into LFR for ToT. There is absolutely no required ilvl to walk through the portal and into a normal or heroic mode raid. The only requirement to get into a heroic mode raid is for one of your group to have downed normal mode Lei Shen.

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Item level is never a performance indicator. My 495 unenchanted Enhancement Shaman can embarrass some 520 equipped players. Gear certainly helps, but it's not an indicator of how well you play or know your class.

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It's 460 to get into LFR for MSV. It's 470 to get into LFR for HoF and ToES. It's 480 to get into LFR for ToT. There is absolutely no required ilvl to walk through the portal and into a normal or heroic mode raid. The only requirement to get into a heroic mode raid is for one of your group to have downed normal mode Lei Shen.

Still makes no sense.. why would LFR, which is a lower progression than Normal or Heroic, require a minimum yet the Normal heroic does not? They released Normal first, to give people a chance to get gear before LFR was live...

I have a 90 ALT I am about to ding.. I will go directly to ToT and try it, my bet is it will not let me in.

I also distinctly remember trying to get a group for ToT, and my iLVL was too low to enter.... I am pretty sure there is a minimum requirement asl well for ToT normal, because I am sure I tried it..

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Item level is never a performance indicator. My 495 unenchanted Enhancement Shaman can embarrass some 520 equipped players. Gear certainly helps, but it's not an indicator of how well you play or know your class.

Yeah.. umm. SERIOUSLY doubt that, maybe a poor 520 equipped or ill advised enchant reforges.. maybe, but you cannot out DPS someone that is 25 levels higher.. that's ridiculous.

Gear isn't the only factor, sure I can stand there with a 530 and do nothing obviously not contributing, so gear means zilch if you don't use the right abilities..

Find a 520 Geared player make a Youtube video, show me you can beat them in a duel.. you can't just embellish and make up something like that just to make your point... Gear DOES make a difference when 2 players are equally matched... It will not teach you proper mechanics, but there is a guaranteed separation in performance...

Take your own enhance shammy, drop you gear.. compare using simulcraft, use 495 and then don your higher level gear you are telling me the DPS does NOT go up? Yeah.. it sure does!

Measured performance isn't the same as knowing timing of abilities, but that's why we have DPS meters.. to demonstrate appreciable difference.

Edited by rjparker1

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This is how it works...

LFR Mogu'Shan Vaults Item Level Requirement: 460

LFR Heart of Fear Item Level Requirement: 470

LFR Terrace of Endless Spring Item Level Requirement: 470

LFR Throne of Thunder Item Level Requirement: 480

Normal MSV, HoF, ToES, and ToT Item Level Requirement: 0

To prove it, take off all of your gear, put it in the bank, and go walk into ToT. The error message you are likely getting says 'You must be in a raid group to enter this instance.'

Now if you're trying to get a group and that raid leader says your item level is too low, that is a subjective decision made by someone else, not the programming built in by Blizzard. Would I take a 435 Resto Druid into my Heroic ToT run? Naw. COULD I take him? Yep. I can promise you that there are groups selling Ra-den kills to low item level people. I know, because I've seen it in World of Log parses and then armoried the guy doing 25,000 DPS seeing him in leveling greens.

I have a 90 ALT I am about to ding.. I will go directly to ToT and try it, my bet is it will not let me in.

How much for the bet? I'll take you up on it.

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Yeah.. umm. SERIOUSLY doubt that, maybe 520 equipped or ill advised enchant reforges.. maybe, but you cannot out DPS someone that is 25 levels higher.. that's ridiculous.

Gear isn't the only factor, sure I can stand there with a 530 and do nothing obviously not contributing, so gear means zilch if you don't use the right abilities..

Find a 520 Geared player make a Youtube video, show me you can beat them in a duel.. you can't just embellish and make up something like that just to make your point... Gear DOES make a difference when 2 players are equally matched... It will not teach you proper mechanics, but there is a guaranteed separation in performance...

Take your own enhance shammy, drop you gear.. compare using simulcraft, use 495 and then don your higher level gear you are telling me the DPS does NOT go up? Yeah.. it sure does!

You seriously doubt that a skilled player with 500 item level can't outperform a mediocre player in 520 gear? How can you explain the variance between people at the same item level? It's skill. Yeah, if I go up against equally skilled players, they will beat me. Gear doesn't make you use the right abilities at the right time.

Secondly, I wasn't talking about a duel, but I know there are PvPers out there who could whoop the crap out of a better geared, less skilled player. Not everyone is on an equal platform when it comes to skill in this game. Notice that I said my 495 Shaman could beat SOME 520 players, not all.

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This is how it works...

How much for the bet? I'll take you up on it.

I will give you 1000 VP :)

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Secondly, I wasn't talking about a duel, but I know there are PvPers out there who could whoop the crap out of a better geared, less skilled player. Not everyone is on an equal platform when it comes to skill in this game. Notice that I said my 495 Shaman could beat SOME 520 players, not all.

noted!

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There are plenty of players out there around the 520 item level who got there from Shado-Pan Assault rep gear, upgraded LFR pieces, maybe a few boss kills on normal, who think the word "rotation" is elitist, and simply randomly spam their buttons and hope big numbers come out. There are also plenty of players out there with a lot of skill and game knowledge who can max out their numbers with low gear. Gear is important, yes, since you can only go so high playing optimally at any item level, but optimal play is the main factor.

There never has, and likely never will, be a Blizzard-implicated mechanic that will stop you from entering a raid portal due to item level. Take that new 90, make a raid group with a buddy, and walk it through the portal. You'll get a loading screen. Then you'll be looking at two small flights of stairs, with three adds at the top of either. I promise you this.

As to your question of why, the reason why Blizzard puts an item level restriction on LFR, but not normal/heroic, is primarily due to the fact that a raid leader can choose his or her players, bringing item level into consideration for his or her own judgement. LFR does not have this option, so its existence in the raid finder tool prevents you from entering into a group for ToT with a bunch of fresh 90s, whether you like it or not, and being bogged down in clearing speed as a result. They know that your average fresh level 90 simply won't be able to cope with the numbers.

Edited by Aeleas
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Still makes no sense.. why would LFR, which is a lower progression than Normal or Heroic, require a minimum yet the Normal heroic does not? They released Normal first, to give people a chance to get gear before LFR was live...

There isn't, and never has been, an ilvl requirement to enter Normal modes. It doesn't matter if that seems to make sense to you; that is how it is. For me, I know that Normals etc are designed on the assumption that the group will either a) enforce high ilvls or B) be able & happy to carry low ilvls. If neither is the case, the ilvl probably isn't going to be the thing holding them back.

To demonstrate, I went to ToT and formed a 2-man raid group with a guildie. I took off some of my gear and walked straight into ToT with 415 equipped.

This particular matter is settled, please drop the topic now.

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As to your question of why, the reason why Blizzard puts an item level restriction on LFR is primarily due to the fact that a raid leader can choose his or her players, bringing item level into consideration for his or her own judgement. LFR does not have this option, so its existence in the raid finder tool prevents you from entering into a group for ToT with a bunch of fresh 90s, whether you like it or not, and being bogged down in clearing speed as a result. They know that your average fresh level 90 simply won't be able to cope with the numbers.

well then I should have been "normal" since the beginning.. wasted all this time thinking that LFR was the way to get geared for Normal.. when I just need a group of friends to make this happen.. I could probably be iLVL 540 by now...

I guess that's why they make alts!

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There isn't, and never has been, an ilvl requirement to enter Normal modes. It doesn't matter if that seems to make sense to you; that is how it is. For me, I know that Normals etc are designed on the assumption that the group will either a) enforce high ilvls or Posted Image be able & happy to carry low ilvls. If neither is the case, the ilvl probably isn't going to be the thing holding them back.

To demonstrate, I went to ToT and formed a 2-man raid group with a guildie. I took off some of my gear and walked straight into ToT with 415 equipped.

This particular matter is settled, please drop the topic now.

Uh, we can't discuss something when it's on topic just for the sake if discussion? It's not heated, out of control nor is it violation TOS...

So you get the last word, and that's it? Forum moderators are supposed to be judicial not tyrannical... We are discussing.. it's a forum, that's what it's for..

Don't understand that ultimatum when we haven't caused an issue.

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