Topic Details

Eternal Flame vs. Sacred Shield in 5.4

27 replies to this topic Started by Darkkonan, Sep 12 2013 03:12 PM
- - - - -
  • Please log in to reply

Posted 12 September 2013 - 03:12 PM

#1
Darkkonan
  • Darkkonan
  • Worker
  • NO DEFAULT AVATAR
  • Posts: 35
  • Reputation: neutral (13)
  • Joined: 15-May 13

http://us.battle.net...kkonan/advanced

 

Hi guys,

Starting a topic on the changes to SS and EF in 5.4 to discuss pros and cons, etc.  The numbers seem to be supporting the switch to Eternal Flame and using it in the normal priority rotation for maximum uptime on the EF HoT (buffed by 40%) and dropping SS from the rotation (nerfed by 30%).  Here was the quote supporting the numbers by Theck on Maintankadin http://maintankadin....=772465#p772465.

 

Some immediate questions that come to mind are... first of all, which set bonuses would work best with this build?  The tier15 two piece bonus seems to be worth hanging onto, at a glance.

Secondly, assuming we are using the Haste build, about what level of Haste are we considering for this build to keep up an acceptable uptime of the Eternal Flame HoT?  During moderate or high movement fights?

Lastly... Any boss fights where it just works better to go back to the bread and butter Sacred Shield build?

 

After trying the Eternal Flame build after using Sacred Shield for so long, it seems a little awkward at first... looking at other things to pop on the pull.  Also, getting used to not having Word of Glory as a cushion after a damage spike.  I also just like the concept of a bubble over a HoT.... However, it looks like the numbers are too good in favor of Eternal Flame to ignore.  I am struggling a little more with fights that include moderate or higher movement, not sure if it's just getting used to the new rotation, or if my haste is still a little low for this build.  At any rate, seems like it will add a little spice to the rotation.

Posted 13 September 2013 - 12:01 AM

#2
Stoove
  • Stoove
  • Sha of Science
  • Posts: 1,186
  • Reputation: revered (276)
  • Joined: 30-May 12
  • LocationUK

Nice ideas there. Hopefully we get a good discussion and can check the guide is updated properly as a result.

Stoove is the wizard of all things shaman related. He is neither late nor early, For he arrives precisely when he intends to.

 

The sole test of theory is experiment. The sole test of experiment is theory.

 

Theorycraft, Simulationcraft, Experimentalcraft. Who says WoW and science are different?

 

I use this as my moderator voice.

Posted 15 September 2013 - 09:18 AM

#3
Jeolstam
  • Jeolstam
  • Vagrant
  • Posts: 2
  • Reputation: neutral (0)
  • Joined: 15-September 13

Hello! 

 

I've been playing holy paladin exclusively ever since I got my first maxlevel character many years ago and am raiding weekly for progress.

 

I've read your post, Darkkonan, and I'll answer your questions. First off there's no real difference in the end which secondary stat you choose to use. Haste increases your reaction to damage, which as a healer is really your top priority, however it lacks sustain and you'll run oom quick if you don't look out. Crit gives alot of output and you'll quickly top the charts when there's actual damage to heal, but it's unreliable and random. Mastery (even with the nerf to EF) is still strong and offers something in between haste and crit, however your healing will be slow and non-bursty without cooldowns. So whichever you choose along whichever talens is really your own preference.

 

Personally I use a mastery-build along with EF. The good thing about this is that you can still blanket the raid with EFs and then keep the beacon on the tank (or player) that takes the most damage. The buff to EF is making it by far the strongest alternative to healing the whole raid. If you're placed into tank-healing only then you should choose SH, but for many of the encounters (especially in SoO) you need to be able to counter heavy raid-wide damage more than actual tank-killers.

 

I hope this helped you out a bit and whichever build you choose you can become a master with it. It all takes practice and knowing how to use your abilities to 100% effectiveness. Swapping talents between fights is not prohibited either wink.png

 

Yours sincerely

 

Jeolstam

Edited by Jeolstam, 15 September 2013 - 09:19 AM.

Posted 15 September 2013 - 04:19 PM

#4
Darkkonan
  • Darkkonan
  • Worker
  • NO DEFAULT AVATAR
  • Posts: 35
  • Reputation: neutral (13)
  • Joined: 15-May 13

My apologies, I just realized I didn't make it completely clear that the buffs and nerfs, as well as the priority rotation changes were in reference to Prot spec.  In the past, Sacred Shield has been the accepted "bread and butter" level 45 talent.  Without taking any resources and with very little upkeep it was a no-brainer to easily weave into the rotation for 100% up-time as a defensive CD for Tanks.  Also, I think the tanking community as a whole has agreed that Haste is by far the go-to secondary stat, even above mitigation stats such as Dodge and Perry.  If you check out my gear (linked on the initial post) you will see I am wearing more pieces of Haste plate than traditional "tanking" plate, as well as recently switching to Haste trinks in an attempt to hit a 50% softcap for Haste.

In the past, the reason for all that Haste was two fold... First, for maximizing the up-time of the damage reduction buff from Shield of the Righteous.  Secondly, getting to the 5 stacks of Bastion of Glory asap, making Word of Glory a nice situational recovery heal... Basically getting Holy Power as fast as possible.  A nice side effect from all that Haste is also some sweet dps.

Now it seems that the HoT from Eternal Flame is creating numbers that are in the neighborhood of 3X larger than the bubble from Sacred Shield.  However, it does take a little bit more management than just merely hitting the button when it's off CD.  It's at it's best when used with 5 stacks of BoG and 3HP... which is not a big deal, just a little more monitoring.  It does, however, even more than before, justify stacking Haste.

Currently it doesn't feel like to me that my Haste is quite at the level to make an all inclusive, permanent switch to EF over SS.  After the first four bosses in SoO I found that when tanking Fallen Protectors, specifically He Softfoot, Sacred Shield worked out better because the amount of movement kept me from maximizing the uptime of the EF HoT.  Hopefully, as my Haste increases, I will find fewer times when this occurs... And of course I'm still in experimental phase determining if I, or my healers, like the change at all.  I've found that what works on paper doesn't always transfer perfectly to the battlefield for me personally.  It seems though that I will be hanging on to my tier15 2 piece bonus as long as possible.

 

It's only been recently that I've learned that Holy spec has been having the same questions about Eternal Flames recent buff.  I have a Holy Spec Pally in my group and we've been discussing it quite a bit... Hoping to hear more input from others as more people try it out.

Posted 16 September 2013 - 12:53 PM

#5
Nobleshield
  • Nobleshield
  • Squire
  • Posts: 44
  • Reputation: neutral (6)
  • Joined: 01-April 13

EF is definitely better now.  Also don't forget that EF doesn't remove the initial heal from WoG (although I'm fairly certain it lowers it), so you can still get a nice heal AND a rolling HoT.  Personally I welcome the change, because many times I'd forget to refresh SS after I had some vengeance rolling :P

Posted 24 September 2013 - 04:02 PM

#6
Darkkonan
  • Darkkonan
  • Worker
  • NO DEFAULT AVATAR
  • Posts: 35
  • Reputation: neutral (13)
  • Joined: 15-May 13

Sept. 23 Hotfix Bluepost....  the HoT from Eternal Flame is increased by 50% when cast on the Paladin.. down from 100%...  Really?  Still better than Sacred Shield, anyone know yet?  I don't know about you guys, but enough with the nerfs already.

Posted 02 March 2014 - 07:58 PM

#7
Skyknight
  • Skyknight
  • Vagrant
  • NO DEFAULT AVATAR
  • Posts: 2
  • Reputation: neutral (0)
  • Joined: 02-March 14

Hi Guys and Gals,

 

Here is what I have found for eternal flame VS sacred shield. For tanks.

 

Both Spells are effected by haste and vengeance so the more you have the better they both work.  So haste stacking is a priority for tanks.

 

The biggest thing with theses two spells is your gear. 

 

The 4 set bonus for the new tear is amazing for EF.  Basically this set allows you to cast EF without paying any holy power to do so if you have at least 3 stacks of bastion of glory.

 

What does that mean?

Well if you run the 4 set bonus you can cast EF  after every third Shield of the righteous,  and it casts as though it was cast using 3 holy power to do so.  The numbers for a 3 holy power EF with at least 3 BoG are higher than the sacred shield.  (there is a great video on you tube that show the stats for this,  I cant seem to find the info to link it but its not hard to find.  search EF VS SS for prot and it should pop right up.)  So if you have the 4 set bonus its a no brinier right? well maybe not, I will get into this more in a bit.

 

Lets look at what most tanks have.

 

If you are currently Running with out the 4 set bonus the numbers become a lot closer.

With a large amount of vengeance and a GS over 530 the EF is more effective but by about 23%  so if your sacred shield blocks 450,000 damage your EF will heal for about 550,000.  theses numbers are just examples your numbers will vary greatly depending on GS and vengeance. the less vengeance you have the closer the numbers become.  For example a base sacred shield with no vengeance may protect 16k while a EF with 5 BoG and 3 holy power can heal for 27k. 

 

But theses numbers still show EF being more effective.

 

Yes on paper they are still more effective but once you take these to the real world it becomes much more unclear.

 

For example in a high movement fight while watching for mechanics, tank swaps and trying to pull agro on adds adding another spell to your rotation or trying to use it only with at least 3 BoG up (anything less its just not worth the cost of holy power) Becomes tricky at best.

 

Yes but SS is another spell I need to keep up so I will just switch to EF instead.

 

That's true but with a simple macro I can take SS off your bars altogether.

   /cast Shield of the Righteous

   /cast Sacred shield

This macro will try to cast a sacred shield every time you cast SoR.  Since SS has no mana cost you can cast it as often as you like with no side effects.  SoR isn't on the global CD so they work well together.  Don't worry about not being able to cast SoR because SS is on CD as long as SoR is first it will always cast and if SS is on CD the macro will just end and you can go about your normal rotation unhindered.

I do still have SS on my bars but the only time I use it is at the very beginning of a fight.  Once my rotation starts I never have to click the spell again.

 

But I am a really good player and I can work EF into my rotation seamlessly every time because I'm soooooo pro.

 

Ok so you can work in EF with out any problems,  How good is your off tank?

Every one always forgets that you can cast SS on another target.  While you are "off tanking" the boss and the other tank switches to "main tank" you can cast SS on him/her.

A simple macro can make things a lot easier

/cast Shield of the Righteous

/cast [target=focus] Sacred Shield

This macro will automatically cast SoR on your target then cast SS on your focus.

If you run with the same tank all the time you can use

/cast Shield of the Righteous

/cast [target=Raxxús] Word of Glory

That is my actually macro.  It will cast SS on raxxus (my off tank) every time and I don't have to have an extra name plate on my screen.

This can also be used on no tank targets.

IE:  If you cast this on a melee during the iron juggernaut they can possibly help clear out the mines.

 

Yes but I can cast EF on others too.

 

That is true,  but it does not benefit from the BoG buff if you are not the target and thus it is less effective at healing.

 

The next thing to consider when trying to decide is how good are your healers.

You might think if your healers are under geared you should go with EF,  but that's not necessarily the case.

 

If a healer see's that a tank just took a big hit there priority will be to get them healed up and this could prevent others from getting a much needed heal. If you take a big hit then use EF and a healer doesn't notice the heal they could end up over healing and wasting mana.  With some practice your healers will get to know how you take damage with EF compared to SS but if they think you are going to use an EF but you don't have one available (with 3 BoG) then this could result in a wipe.

 

SS while a lil less effective (with out the 4 set bonus) can even out you damage intake.  Making a large hit less of a priority for the healers and allowing them more time to focus on others before getting to you.

 

The last thing for theses two spells is if you are going to take big hits back to back.

Assuming you don't have a defensive CD available SS is the better option.

SS will stop you from taking the damage while EF heals the damage you have already taken. So in a situation where you need to take a lot of damage quickly (i.e. too many stacks before a tank swap)  SS can be the better choice.  if you are about to get hit for your remaining HP then EF wont help once you are dead but SS can keep you alive just long enough to get a LoH off or heals form another player.

 

Basically it comes down to preference raid makeup and GS.  If you have a week GS or are running with others that do SS maybe the way to go.  If you have the 4 set bonus then EF is almost always the best choice,  unless your "off tank" needs the help of SS.

 

Keep in mind while trying to decide that you still have Word of Glory available with the bonus from BoG.

 

In closing I will tell you what I do.  After a long break I have returned to wow again.  my GS is 525 currently.  I use SS with the macros.  It works well for helping even out my damage intake.  I will almost certainly switch to EF once I have the 4 piece set bonus.  Possibly before depending on my haste and mastery.  I love the ease of use with SS and the versatility it brings with it.  I will Miss it once my gear gets better but I will stick with SS till my raid team gets better gear over all.  That would be my suggestion to all of you keep SS till you feel you gear and your other raiders GS is good enough to make EF your choice.  Keep testing both out for your self to see when its time to make the switch.  Keep in mind some fights might be better for one over the other no matter what you GS or tear set bonus.

 

Good luck and I hope I made things a lil easier for everyone to make a decision.

Posted 02 March 2014 - 08:48 PM

#8
Fouton
  • Fouton
  • Dangerously Comfortable
  • Posts: 455
  • Reputation: revered (187)
  • Joined: 15-November 13
  • LocationCanada

The main reason I don't ever use SS over EF is that EF does not take a global cooldown to cast, and healing is just overall better. Your macro that makes you 'not have to worry about SS' makes you lose a GCD every single time you cast SoR. That is a HUGE uptime loss and it will completely destroy your rotation. I seriously advice not doing that at all.

 

Eternal Flame is just by far the superior ability in terms of vengeance scaling, effective healing, and helping you keep your SoR uptime unharmed by the loss of GCDs. Especially once you get the 4set.

 

Please don't use the macro of SS/SoR, it just isn't worth the gain in SS. Get weakauras or tellmewhen, and have it tell you that your SS is needing to be reapplied. That, or just use EF.

Posted 02 March 2014 - 09:46 PM

#9
Skyknight
  • Skyknight
  • Vagrant
  • NO DEFAULT AVATAR
  • Posts: 2
  • Reputation: neutral (0)
  • Joined: 02-March 14

Useing the macro does add to the global CD but with the CD's of your other spells its not a major issue.  I just tested it out and I didn't notice much of a loss at all.  It only ocasionaly has an effect and its honestly not much of an effect. 

The choice is your's test it out and see how you like it.

Posted 02 March 2014 - 10:04 PM

#10
Fouton
  • Fouton
  • Dangerously Comfortable
  • Posts: 455
  • Reputation: revered (187)
  • Joined: 15-November 13
  • LocationCanada

It is a major issue. You're losing a lot of DPS.

 

Assuming you can generate 3 holy power in ~8 seconds (Aka your haste is probably around 20-30% haste), you're losing 17% of your GCDs on a SS application. That's substantial. (With more haste, its still about 17% at all times, due to how fast you can generate vs the CD of SS)

 

All you need to do is download TellMeWhen or WeakAuras, make an aura to show Sacred Shield, and you can apply it every 30 seconds instead of every 6-8 seconds, and save a ton of damage, and likely some mitigation as well.

 

Every bit counts when you're trying to discuss what's best for a talent, so using a macro that cuts your maximum ability is just not worth using.

 

And this is before me being firmly against Sacred Shield in general. You can only have 1 up at a time, where as with Eternal Flame you can save your raid with a Holy Avenger -> Blanket Raid with EF to do TONS of healing. I've saved my raid several times with that function of Eternal Flame.

 

Then, Eternal Flame still is arguably better when you are tanking, and slightly worse for OT healing when you're not tanking. It also can help provide some AoE threat when you know you won't be able to be all over the place picking up adds, such as Garrosh's 1st phase.

 

I really don't think anyone should be using Sacred Shield anymore.

 

I quote Theck of Sacred Duty:

 

Eternal Flame and Sacred Shield: This patch, Sacred Shield received a 30% nerf and Eternal Flame‘s heal-over-time (HoT) component received a 40% buff.  Together, this has finally shifted the balance of power in our Level 45 talent tier.  When cast with 5 stacks of Bastion of Glory, Eternal Flame’s HoT will heal for 3x-4x as much as Sacred Shield absorbs.  As such, it becomes the better smoothness option at high haste, essentially through brute-force.

 

That doesn’t make Sacred Shield a bad choice, just a little less effective at smoothing melee damage.  It may still be the stronger choice when up against large, one-shot boss attacks.  And the ability to put it on your co-tank is another hard-to-quantify benefit; I suspect that two paladin tanks that are alternating Sacred Shields such that each tank has two active at any given time is still superior to a similar strategy with Eternal Flame.

 

The general strategy when using Eternal Flame should be to refresh it when it’s about to expire or shortly after it’s expired, ideally at high BoG stacks and always with 3+ Holy Power or a “freebie” proc like Divine Purpose or the Tier 16 4-piece bonus.  Note that in many cases it’s actually better to let it expire and re-apply than to refresh it early thanks to the instant healing component.  For example, if you refresh it a second early while at full health and then take a large hit from the boss, the Word of Glory portion is wasted as overhealing and the first few HoT ticks will go towards healing that damage.  If instead you let the HoT expire and held that Eternal Flame until after the melee attack landed, the instant heal would completely offset the melee attack, leaving you at full health with a fresh HoT ticking for the next melee attack.

Posted 02 March 2014 - 10:06 PM

#11
Fouton
  • Fouton
  • Dangerously Comfortable
  • Posts: 455
  • Reputation: revered (187)
  • Joined: 15-November 13
  • LocationCanada

In addition, to quote Slootbag of Midwinter

 

 

-EF scales with Mastery and Haste, and we need a new stat after reachable Haste cap (Stam is another option), SS does not scale with anything but Haste for secondary stats.
-EF benefits from crit as each individual HoT has its own chance to crit, and makes it so that we can in fact benefit from all 3 stats on the amp trinket.
-EF has more effective off healing for the raid than WoG, as you can also use it to blanket members, which helps with high vengeance. SS no bueno in that department.

Posted 04 March 2014 - 03:44 PM

#12
sexybeast
  • sexybeast
  • Farmer
  • NO DEFAULT AVATAR
  • Posts: 22
  • Reputation: neutral (3)
  • Joined: 16-September 13

 

 

I really don't think anyone should be using Sacred Shield anymore.

 

 

You've obviously not thought of bosses that can 1 shot you with an ability...

 

Lets talk about siegecrafter 25 hc and with going up to say 7/8 stacks -

 

a SS can actually count as a CD due to the stupid amount of vengance you gain, it actually saves your life, i use SS here due to the fact it means i can save my DP for 1 stack later meaning more survivabilty for later in the fight, which is defo needed. Yeah its a global but so what, its a 30 second long buff on yourself that keeps you alive through 1 shot (dependent on your HP/STAM) abilities

 

Its a choice at the end of the day, each tank has a choice to decide which CD to use when, there is no right or wrong answer here and this debate has been going since EF got boosted and then nerfed again. Its so so so fight situational that a comment like that is just plain stupid.

 

The epic heals that EF can do are great and help healers out loads, but when point is there in using EF when your dead... cause you cant! If your HP buffed is say 950k but an abilitly (when stacked) can hit for 1million, it would 1 shot you, however with a 60k SS on you you would servive.

 

I use both, fight dependent... FIGHT DEPENDENT... thats the term here which is never used. everything in this game is situational and whilst i myself activly read sacred duty, watch both slooty and treckies streams they will all tell you that no fights are the same and TBF theory crafting is just that THEORY. It frustrates me no end when people say "well so and so said it so it must be right" this is just never the case im afraid, Theck even says himself that what he does shouldnt be taken as gospel.

 

In fact to back up what im saying, Treckie actually used SS on certain fight in SoO so yeah...

[Cutting Edge - Lei Shen]
[Cutting Edge - Garrosh Hellscream]
Tankadin
Officer
NoM Twisting Nether - EU

Posted 04 March 2014 - 06:49 PM

#13
Saetheroth
  • Saetheroth
  • Vagrant
  • NO DEFAULT AVATAR
  • Posts: 3
  • Reputation: neutral (0)
  • Joined: 30-December 13

You've obviously not thought of bosses that can 1 shot you with an ability...

 

Lets talk about siegecrafter 25 hc and with going up to say 7/8 stacks -

 

a SS can actually count as a CD due to the stupid amount of vengance you gain, it actually saves your life, i use SS here due to the fact it means i can save my DP for 1 stack later meaning more survivabilty for later in the fight, which is defo needed. Yeah its a global but so what, its a 30 second long buff on yourself that keeps you alive through 1 shot (dependent on your HP/STAM) abilities

 

Its a choice at the end of the day, each tank has a choice to decide which CD to use when, there is no right or wrong answer here and this debate has been going since EF got boosted and then nerfed again. Its so so so fight situational that a comment like that is just plain stupid.

 

The epic heals that EF can do are great and help healers out loads, but when point is there in using EF when your dead... cause you cant! If your HP buffed is say 950k but an abilitly (when stacked) can hit for 1million, it would 1 shot you, however with a 60k SS on you you would servive.

 

I use both, fight dependent... FIGHT DEPENDENT... thats the term here which is never used. everything in this game is situational and whilst i myself activly read sacred duty, watch both slooty and treckies streams they will all tell you that no fights are the same and TBF theory crafting is just that THEORY. It frustrates me no end when people say "well so and so said it so it must be right" this is just never the case im afraid, Theck even says himself that what he does shouldnt be taken as gospel.

 

In fact to back up what im saying, Treckie actually used SS on certain fight in SoO so yeah...

 

Pardon my ignorance but why would you switch at 8 stacks?

I usually have my OT taunt off (in 10M normals / 25Flex) when the first add spawns so I can use the stacks properly. I may not be correct about the spawn time for the adds but isn't 25M heroicthe same as 25 Flex except with the overcharged weapons and the different positioning of the matter purification beams?

 

I agree with the situational usefulness of Sacred Shield but I feel like if you have your T16-4P set... you're kinda forced into utilising EF instead. I suppose it depends on how you're geared... I do like EF for the raw healing but I definitley understand where shield (Absorbs) come into play.

 

I read about the ilevel request that Fouton asked Theck to look at and TMI seems better with the T16-4P set (and consequently EF being talented instead).

 

My apologies if I come across off as affront but being in progression and learning these fights... I'd like to know and understand these fights more indepth.

Posted 04 March 2014 - 07:20 PM

#14
Fouton
  • Fouton
  • Dangerously Comfortable
  • Posts: 455
  • Reputation: revered (187)
  • Joined: 15-November 13
  • LocationCanada

No need to get rude. I'm saying as a basis that there is almost no situation where SS wins in SoO. Yes, SS can barely save you in such times, but you can also argue that you can get all sorts of external CDs to make the 60k moot.

 

SS was given a small nerf with EF, so EF is much stronger. The situation you mention is only better if you are topped off. If not EF would help cap you before the hit comes, so that you can have your full health bar for the impact.

 

I agree that they can both be useful, but for most players, they should be using Eternal Flame if: they have the 4set, they don't get 1shot ever, they have issues keeping SS up, they have mediocre healers, or they have many CDs.

 

Im curious as to what you do for those stacks of siegcrafter, since I believe a paladin has enough CDs to survive that long, without relying on SS.

Posted 04 March 2014 - 07:56 PM

#15
Belloc
  • Belloc
  • Footman
  • NO DEFAULT AVATAR
  • Posts: 68
  • Reputation: neutral (5)
  • Joined: 25-October 13

Pardon my ignorance but why would you switch at 8 stacks?

I usually have my OT taunt off (in 10M normals / 25Flex) when the first add spawns so I can use the stacks properly. I may not be correct about the spawn time for the adds but isn't 25M heroicthe same as 25 Flex except with the overcharged weapons and the different positioning of the matter purification beams?

3 stacks isn't enough to kill the add on heroic without tanks using their DPS cooldowns. Those cooldowns will not be up for every shredder, so tanks have to compensate by getting their stacks up higher. 5-6 is probably enough, though, so I'm not sure why he's getting it up to 8.

Posted 04 March 2014 - 08:25 PM

#16
sexybeast
  • sexybeast
  • Farmer
  • NO DEFAULT AVATAR
  • Posts: 22
  • Reputation: neutral (3)
  • Joined: 16-September 13
ote name="Saetheroth" post="53889" timestamp="1393955398"]Pardon my ignorance but why would you switch at 8 stacks?I usually have my OT taunt off (in 10M normals / 25Flex) when the first add spawns so I can use the stacks properly. I may not be correct about the spawn time for the adds but isn't 25M heroicthe same as 25 Flex except with the overcharged weapons and the different positioning of the matter purification beams? I agree with the situational usefulness of Sacred Shield but I feel like if you have your T16-4P set... you're kinda forced into utilising EF instead. I suppose it depends on how you're geared... I do like EF for the raw healing but I definitley understand where shield (Absorbs) come into play. I read about the ilevel request that Fouton asked Theck to look at and TMI seems better with the T16-4P set (and consequently EF being talented instead). My apologies if I come across off as affront but being in progression and learning these fights... I'd like to know and understand these fights more indepth.[/quote]

Basically it works on hc by tank A (in my case bm monk) gets 3 stacks then I taunt, taking whatever stacks then he taunts back before his stacks run out after the add dies to make killimg the add easier.

We both go up to high stacks to kill the add in meele range as by the 4th/5th add we can nuke the add there and still damage the boss and any mines that are up, making the stacks necessary to out dps the heal that it recieves from the boss. Its more then lilely 7 stacks, but my brain is fried after a night on him last night.

No need to get rude. I'm saying as a basis that there is almost no situation where SS wins in SoO. Yes, SS can barely save you in such times, but you can also argue that you can get all sorts of external CDs to make the 60k moot. SS was given a small nerf with EF, so EF is much stronger. The situation you mention is only better if you are topped off. If not EF would help cap you before the hit comes, so that you can have your full health bar for the impact. I agree that they can both be useful, but for most players, they should be using Eternal Flame if: they have the 4set, they don't get 1shot ever, they have issues keeping SS up, they have mediocre healers, or they have many CDs. Im curious as to what you do for those stacks of siegcrafter, since I believe a paladin has enough CDs to survive that long, without relying on SS.


I use it in for the cd on the 3rd stack, its a much safer way and allows me to save the cds for later, I.e. using each cd 1 stack later then recommend, And it works, well.

I dont run with the 4set, basically a full haste/mastery build. Its my playstyle as well as the way my raid works that makes my build better for me, its not something that everyone would use/go for but the point is still valid around the fact that each person has there own builds that work for them. Yes on paper there are builds that would work out to more/better survivability but not if they are not played correctly. EF has a better time to use it where as SS is by far the simplest one to use and all you gotta do is spam it whwn you have higher vengance or the buff is about to ware off! And it has the added benefit of being able to use on your off tank and its a much stronger cd for them then our EF could ever be.

Didnt mean to come across rude if you thought I did I apologise but I do have strong feelings about people saying "your build is wrong" or "you dont ever use that talent" kinda thing, everything is situational and really does need to be looked at like that :)
[Cutting Edge - Lei Shen]
[Cutting Edge - Garrosh Hellscream]
Tankadin
Officer
NoM Twisting Nether - EU

Posted 04 March 2014 - 11:03 PM

#17
Fouton
  • Fouton
  • Dangerously Comfortable
  • Posts: 455
  • Reputation: revered (187)
  • Joined: 15-November 13
  • LocationCanada

No worries, I didn't mean to sound like I as ruling it out entirely, I just meant to be generalize. If it works to push CDs back one round on something, then its definitely a good use for it on that fight. The rough part is that it's entirely based on tank HP vs CDs available.

 

In a 10man you'd find that the SS absorb will become more important as a CD since there's less raid/tank specific CDs for you. 25man I'd say every CD could be handled by someone else if it comes to it, but if somehow every CD is used or there aren't many paladins/disc priests around, you might need to have SS be that saving point.

Posted 01 April 2014 - 09:32 AM

#18
rozowykubek
  • rozowykubek
  • Vagrant
  • NO DEFAULT AVATAR
  • Posts: 6
  • Reputation: neutral (0)
  • Joined: 01-April 14

I would like to ask how is it look like with ret ? 

I mean, I like to take care of myself and by the way relieve healers a bit, hence I am using EF and It saved my life dozens of time ( I do not care about dmg as much as being alive during fight ) but whats the difference in healed amount between SS and EF on 90 lvl ? 

Posted 01 April 2014 - 01:26 PM

#19
Geoda
  • Geoda
  • G to the Yoda
  • Posts: 216
  • Reputation: revered (187)
  • Joined: 10-December 13

I prefer SS over EF now that I've been playing around with ret more (I'm still new to it though). If I am in dire need of a heal, I can always just LOH myself or use a healthstone or in a last sec prayer to flash heal myself. If I am taking severe damage I notice that SS + Divine Protection is a great mitigation combo. You could always bubble too.

 

Since I am a main spec healer, I am happy to know that DPS will use their abilities to not only mitigate their own damage but to save their own lives too. However, there's only so much you can personally do and the rest needs to be in the hands of the healer. Just try your best to not stand in fire.

 

The biggest reason why it is suggested to use SS is because you can use it as a filler during your rotation. It also does not consume Holy Power (which is a DPS lost when used on other abilities rather than damage abilities). Using EF consumes Holy Power and a GCD. Using this consistently throughout a fight is an overall dps loss.

Geoda - Holy/Ret Paladin - 14/14H

Streaming every raid M-W 8-11:30 EST with Webcam

www.twitch.tv/geoda_yoda

 

Twitch     Apotheosis Guild     ProRaiders     Armory     Warcraft Logs

Posted 01 April 2014 - 03:22 PM

#20
rozowykubek
  • rozowykubek
  • Vagrant
  • NO DEFAULT AVATAR
  • Posts: 6
  • Reputation: neutral (0)
  • Joined: 01-April 14

LOH is great but I noticed especially when I was  <10% HP left that I can not use it -..-  it was just greyed out, In such times I am trying to recall to myself if I used it but if I did then it would be imba coincidence cause it happend too many times ^^ 

SS is nice but if  I recall correctly we need time to make flash instant and during grave condition when healers struggle to keep  tank alive and themselves too and my bubble is on CD EF+holy avenger  is making great job, not to mention that I can help others.

I would say this is just being Pala, heal yourself, help others at the expense of dmg. Problem is that there is prot, healer, and ret and concept of Paladin is bit blurred for me

 

I may change my habits when I start raiding, 1,5 level + a lot of items to get before it happens :P

Active Users

0 user(s) are browsing this forum 0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users