Sign in to follow this  
Followers 0
Stoove

[Gauging Interest] Resto Shaman Stats Guide

27 posts in this topic

Topic now locked; this was intended only to find out if there was interest in a stat guide. I have decided to take the project on and ask as many questions as I can which have been suggested. My thanks to everyone who contributed.

 

If you were seeking help in this thread, please start your own and I will be happy to lend you my advice.

 

Hi there everyone!

 

I want to know who would be interested in seeing a walkthrough guide to why Resto Shaman choose to gear as we do. I have been running myself through the Theorycraft behind the gearing recently, and I wanted to know if it would be helpful to other people.

 

Some questions I am aiming to answer;

  1. Why do we gem for Crit? Should we gem full Crit or Hybrids?
  2. Is Haste better than Crit?
  3. For HoTs, why do we have breakpoints?
  4. Are HoT breakpoints really worth it?
  5. What's all this about Crit/Mastery? How does it work?

I will make the guide accessible but thorough, with detailed mathematics for those who want it and plenty of explanation for those not up on their calculus.

 

Make sure to post below if you want to see the guide published! It will take me a lot of effort to write. If there are any other questions you would like me to answer in this vein, please let me know!

 

User Suggested Topics:

  • Why do we see different builds in 10man and 25man?
  • What alternative builds are there? Are they viable/practical?

Other Potential Topics I Just Thought Up:

  • How does Mana Regen come into stat weights?
  • Can we take account of Regen as well as HPS, e.g. for Crit?
  • What are the differences in stat weights when you have different healing paradigms?
3 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'd be interested in seeing the maths breakdown for this. I'm getting started with 'theory craft light' and would appreciate the logic behind the calculations.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Also, as in our other thread, the situations for use of the different builds. When is crit better, the way that crit and mastery interact with each other, etc. The 10 man vs 25 man builds. (I'm happy to provide logs for our 25/25H raiding)

 

And also, maybe a small section for the "off the beaten path" builds. When you hear about the shaman running like 5k spirit and 60% crit. These are entertaining at least. :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Stoove, I would love to see a guide, even though you have helped me already. And thank you for taking the time to write it. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks for the support and suggestions!

 

Due to the sheer amount of maths this will involve, I'm wondering how best to present it. I run my own blog, and I can do maths on that easy peasy, but I would like to post the results here as well. Does anyone have an opinion on, say, having the maths posted on my blog in several stages, and a thread on the forums with explanations (in words and pictures) of the results?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Although I'm a fan of the nitty gritty parts, I think it's best to keep them and the end results separated in order to keep other people interested and not bumping into a wall of math. So detailed stuff on blog and final results with simplified explanations (when possible) here sounds about right.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

as mention before, i have played both 10man and 25man, and i think its better with a higher hastecap in 10man than in 25man. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

as mention before, i have played both 10man and 25man, and i think its better with a higher hastecap in 10man than in 25man. 

 

So are you saying that you'd like to see me tackling the question of whether there is a difference between 10man and 25man Haste values?

 

EDIT: WOO my 900th post! =D

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Oh, another thing:

 

Mana regen (Spirit, Crit, and other stats' impact on your efficiency) is turning out to be really complicated. It will take me a lot of effort to write it up, so if you want that please do speak up. If nobody wants to see it, I probably won't bother.

 

Especially Intellect. It's a mindfuck.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Oh, another thing:

 

Mana regen (Spirit, Crit, and other stats' impact on your efficiency) is turning out to be really complicated. It will take me a lot of effort to write it up, so if you want that please do speak up. If nobody wants to see it, I probably won't bother.

 

Especially Intellect. It's a mindfuck.

There is way too much interacting information with those stats that it probably wouldn't be consistent from person to person. Making decisions based on all that would entail exactly how the stats interacted with THAT players' play style and other things in the raid composition. The main stats that we can more readily analyze will show a ton of information that players can use to make decisions. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Oh, another thing:

 

Mana regen (Spirit, Crit, and other stats' impact on your efficiency) is turning out to be really complicated. It will take me a lot of effort to write it up, so if you want that please do speak up. If nobody wants to see it, I probably won't bother.

 

Especially Intellect. It's a mindfuck.

 

I don't mind seeing it, though don't bother formatting it if it's a hassle tongue.png

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There is way too much interacting information with those stats that it probably wouldn't be consistent from person to person. Making decisions based on all that would entail exactly how the stats interacted with THAT players' play style and other things in the raid composition. The main stats that we can more readily analyze will show a ton of information that players can use to make decisions. 

 

Actually, while it's complicated it's definitely possible to analyse mathematically. I agree that there is a certain amount of personal taste to spell choice, but that doesn't stop you saying "OK so given that I have chosen to cast spell X, what stats make it most mana efficient?" - the calculus is long and complicated, and there are a lot of interrelations between the stats, but you can still do it. The idea is to do so independent of personal spell choice.

 

Another interesting thing that this would answer is related to gear levels. We already know roughly what stats are mana positive, negative, and so on, but few of us know exactly why. Even fewer of us really know what context the calculations were made in - as we've already seen in another thread, gear levels can dramatically impact stat calculations.

 

I don't mind seeing it, though don't bother formatting it if it's a hassle tongue.png

 

Yeah, I was wondering. There are a lot of terms in the equations so I end up doing a product rule compounded with a chain rule, and things get real messy real fast. I think that I might just skip writing up that bit of the maths and give the results, because they simplify greatly once you compare stats.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hey there!  Long time lurker, first time poster.

 

Let me begin by saying "I'm not sure what exactly I'm looking for, but here's a scenario you might want to incorporate in this giant stat shindig".

 

I main Elemental in 10man.  We're just starting heroics, and there's usually at least one raid night per week wherein we're missing a healer (work conflict).  Usually, either myself or our ret pally go heals if we need the 3rd, since pugging healers on our server is... tricky.

 

Now, since there's a whopping TWO pieces of int mail in SoO (tier nonwithstanding) that do not have Spirit on them, not to mention a huge amount of crit lying around, my gearing for elemental has been... fun.  Like, gemming stamina because I'm 5% past hit cap fun.  So my gear is actually a lot closer to a spirit/crit build than I'd like.

 

However, since elemental is still my mainspec, unless I have duplicates in a slot (chest tokens come to mind), it's spirit/crit reforged toward mastery/haste.  With the constraint of "I don't want to reforge/re-gem every time I switch specs", my questions are these; is there a gemming strategy that might allow me to be more effective at Resto without undo sacrifice of Ele effectiveness (straight red gems, for example)?  What should I be doing with the few duplicate pieces I do have to maximize resto effectiveness (is it more important to get to a minimum amount of spirit, or go crit right off the bat)?  Is there a playstyle I should adopt as a low spirit, low crit 3rd healer (usually alongside an rdruid and either hpally or mw monk) to get more out of my suboptimal gearing?

 

I'm not sure how much can be done, but I feel like I'm not the only person in this sort of situation, and it might be a useful case to consider as you go about deciding what strategies to test (and how to test them).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

How many shaman are in your group? I'm in the same situation but I've had to reforge spirit back on at times. The tier gear is itemized quite nicely for ele. I have had my group clear siege a bit. I link to my armory in my profile if you want to check the exact number of clears. All the spirit/crit gear is great for resto an pretty much useless for ele. If other people in your group are in the same boat I'd recommend clearing soo at least 6 times before pressing hard on h. It's also nice to id an alt at spoils so you can jump to thok and clear the rest at the end of the week for trinks and tier.

I would recommend keeping your ele set pure. We are already a little on the low side for potential, so it's best to keep the ele set as good as it can be. Resto is very capable regardless of gear score. The CDs are very nice even if your int is a touch low because some of your pieces are from previous tier. You may not top the charts, but you can still make quite a difference.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@spark

While I don't use my eel spec very often and just use my resto gear to do dailies and grind on the isle, so it's by no means a raid worthy spec, it would be interesting to find a balance between the two. My basic understanding is that ele values mastery > Haste > Crit as far as secondaries go. (Feel free to correct me on this.)

The main issues would be the spirit. You would always be way over on hit. I have like 12.5k spirit and I'm like 2.5x the hit cap in ele. I could see a mastery/haste build doing alright as a third heals depending on comp.

What you might try is just swapping in your weapons/shield/trinkets for healing ones and leaving the elemental gear as is. The mastery on your ele gear would help and the spirit on the healing items should help balance you out. Especially if you're able to equip the meta gem (dual helms would be needed) and use spirit flask/food. With the LMG you can run pretty low spirit.

Try it out in a flex or two and see how it feels. Even getting the flex trinkets would be awesome. Keep us posted on the results!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm actually the only mail-user in my raid group, so I have enhancement more or less fully geared as well (light on tier due to it going to ele first, but otherwise quite solid).  Thanks to an overabundance of chest tokens and a few replacement drops, I've got 3 "spare" pieces I don't use for elemental (shoulders, warforged hands, and tier chest), though I've debated using my flex haste-mastery boots over my warforged spirit-crit boots and devoting those to resto as well.  (Re: ele stat priority, mastery = haste > crit is perhaps a better way of putting it.  If there's a substantial benefit to haste or mastery over the other for a low-spirit resto build, moving from one to the other in elemental would be of little consequence.)

 

Regen does seem to be the crux of the issue.  While I can switch over to the healer legendary cloak (my wallet will recover), I only have one 553 helm (no luck getting the tier piece from Thok as of yet) and thus would have to drop down to ToT equipment to dedicate a helm to the healing metagem until the loot gods have mercy.  The suggestion of getting lesser but dedicated pieces seems to be a decent one, especially for the helm.  As it stands, I'm standing at monstrous triage capability but miserable topping off.  Works great on bursty fights (Jin'rokh comes to mind) but not so much on, say, Norushen.  I did recently pull off healing the Haromm tanks on a Dark Shamans kill using the 3-tank strategy, though.  Ran out of mana at the end, but I did it (and beat the rdruid on the meters to boot, not that it means anything).  Felt good to get work out of all that mastery for once.

 

To the point of this thread, what I'm getting at is that I read the intent of it as "various stat builds and how to play them (for various circumstances)".   I'm hoping for some build-conscious playstyle tips; assuming I find something to stick an LMG on, how would you go about playing a super-low-spirit build?  Is a fistweaver-esque LB-LB-CH a sane thing to even contemplate?  What can you get away with as a 3rd 10man healer (as opposed to 1 of 2, but taking into account it being the sort of fight you want 3 healers on)?

 

I'm going to try and get some flex testing in over the week (perhaps a bit in normal too).  Spirit flask/food is a good place to start, I'll give it a shot.  Let's see what we can do with "low spirit, balanced secondaries"...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

always use your best weapon for resto and ele. unless you have a 567 weapon for ele and a 561 for resto. the spell power on weapons is number one for both specs. flex haste mastery boots for ele is a good move. healing cloak is helpful but not totally mandatory. LMG in any ilvl helm would be very nice. keep in mind that timeless isle helms are no joke. they have the same sockets and bonuses that any other helm would, so get your burdens and cross your fingers and pray for crit. unless the helm you're using for ele is the nazgrim spirit/crit helm. then try to oq some h tot or even reg tot for the primordius helm. and run flex 3 as much as you can because the ele teir helm is the only acceptable ele helm. even get the lfr one if you have to, spirit/crit is terrible for ele.

 

an int flask will do more than spirit. the extra spirit from a flask is a teardrop in the rain of mana gains, but int will make you heal more per heal. the problem with healing in ele gear is that your crit will be extremely low. once your resto gear crit is above 40% raid buffed, healing wave is a pretty huge mana gain, and any time your LMG procs you get no mana lost and full return. 

 

if you must, gem your ele gear for int+mastery in red sockets, pure mastery in yellow and pure mastery in blue. reforge spirit and crit to haste > mastery. in pieces of your ele gear that you can swap out, gem pure haste no matter the socket color. 

 

then gem pure crit, ignoring bonuses, in your resto only gear and do mostly riptide HW HW rip HW HW. chain heal and healing rain only when you know it's needed. if people arent low on health think twice before using heals that cost mana. you can roll HW on tanks or anyone with a dot anytime, but slapping down a rain when no one in the circle is going to go below 75% hp for its duration is a big chunk of mana thats just gone.

 

if a fight doesnt have a mandatory healing cd phase, get used to using your cds like you would if you were dpsing. early and often. if youre going to save something for emergencies, healing tide is the one. only use one cd at a time, aside from spirit walkers grace paired with ascendance. even healing stream totem is a minor burst cd, so blindly using it on cd in a ten man is very wasteful. if you see people get bunched up and you know some damage spikes might come in - protectors, juggernaut, siegecrafter, THOK - spirit link early. spirit link doesnt bring people back to life, but if it prevents a death you'll be happy.

1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So are you saying that you'd like to see me tackling the question of whether there is a difference between 10man and 25man Haste values?

 

EDIT: WOO my 900th post! =D

yes! cus most shamans in 25man usually go for a lower hastecap and those i have seen in 10man, but i can be wrong aswell :p

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

oh and spark, my current plan for my resto off set is to go chest + legs for the 2pc because it complements SoO tanking, and then get gear with crit and/or mastery in every other slot. in my current resto set i gem pure crit and reforge all spirit to mastery or if i have to crit. it's pretty fun. buffed i have 42% crit and 80% mastery with about 9k spirit and i've yet to have mana issues.

 

i dont glyph riptide and just do CH HW HW to regen mana, then i use riptide and healing stream for quick saves. healing stream is actually quite dependable when things get bad. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Alright, so, no luck on flex this week (neither a trinket nor a helm, did everything but wing 1; unfortunately I was needed as dps or tank and didn't get to test healing), but I did get to fiddle around with my reforging a bit more.  With the few spare pieces I can dedicate to resto being fully crit gemmed (didn't even have to reforge them, seems like everything this tier is spirit-crit to begin with) I get to about 9.5k spirit and 37% buffed crit, which is fairly close to what you're saying works without serious mana issues.  Now that I have my ele. 4pc (which is quite underwhelming, but worth getting because the tier pieces have less spirit/crit >.> ) I can hope the celestials might grace the resto tier chest I already have with a friend.  Might see about running Ordos more too, I'd stopped for awhile since just about everything on him is spirit-crit, but that's actually quite handy for gearing resto.

 

CH-HW-HW actually regens mana (or is at least reasonably neutral) with this much crit?  Awesome.  That should be fine for basic steady damage intake (even if we end up with me 2-healing something again), and having spent most of cata as resto I know how to triage if things get bad.

 

Thanks for the help, guys.  Amazing how swingy I could get those stats with only 3 alternate pieces, but then again I'm floating around ilvl 565 and ele gear is woefully crit heavy this tier.  I'll chime back in after I've gotten a chance to really test it out.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I would be interested in this, although Ive read many many posts and have got a pretty good grip on things, I would love to see more math behind it. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This would be very interesting to me seeing as I am currently  gearing my shaman for progression raiding!

 

Things I'd find interesting, though it might be tough to spell out, would be the impact of getting the legendary meta gem on the amount of spirit you need and/or whether you should still stack some spirit in order to get a decent MTT.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Okay, I got a chance to test things out on Iron Juggernaut and Dark Shamans.  (10-man, with an rdruid and a mistweaver.)

I had 37.5% buffed crit, and 9.5k spirit, with the dps metagem and cloak.

 

On juggernaut I was the lowest on hps, but both the druid and I ended with >95% mana and never really dipped below it.  3-healing it was probably gratuitous, especially since we got him to ~20% by the end of the first stationary phase.  Dropped mana tide once for the MW since she was burning through her mana like crazy.  I was pleasantly surprised by the mana neutrality of chain heal; casting it a dozen times in a row felt like it cost me ~40k mana instead of half my pool.

 

On dark shamans, I was tank healer for the 3-tank strategy.  I'd done this before with my dedicated dps gear, and wow, what a difference 3 pieces can make.  I ended up as top hps on recount (although I question that a bit given the range) AND ended with about 90% mana, with mana tide just coming off CD as the fight ended.  I felt much more comfortable the whole time, too; easier to keep tank health stable if you aren't constantly worrying if your mana will last the rest of the fight.

 

I'm gonna call that a success.  I think it could even have worked with less, but I'll wait to make that call until I heal something that A) actually deserves all the healers it has and B) doesn't allow me to exploit mastery like that, since neither is generally representative.

 

Thanks for the tips guys, and I hope my experience is helpful to others.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

dont worry on heroic juggernaut a single healing tide does around 4-5 million healing during siege mode. resto mastery gets very valuable in heroics. oddly enough, so do those little mistweaver healing spheres. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
Sign in to follow this  
Followers 0

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.