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Lockybalboa

BrM tank check

18 posts in this topic

Hey y'all, my main is a 14/14HM warlock and I'm deep in to the theory crafting of locks, my main for a long time was a top US prot pally and I've been doing bleeding edge progression on and off for years. I say this simply so that you know where I'm coming from so please don't hold back. Feel free to dig as deep as you can and assume I'm looking for the most min/max answers because I have the ability to execute it.

 

Being progression is over and such I've started doing a steady 10man raid on my BrM. Mostly just farming normals so far but will be moving in to some heroics soon as most of us have cleared the tier on our mains and are looking for something semi-new and fun to do.

 

Armory: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/malganis/Kitan%C3%A1/advanced

 

Logs: http://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/ZVjWg8KRfb6nPHzy/

 

My problem is mostly in just being spiky as balls. I'm fine, I'm fine, I'm fine, OMFGHOLYBATSHITTHATJUSTBENTMEOVER. 

 

As far as I can tell this is almost always due to just really crap strings of RNG, I have shuffle up, guard was either used and blown through or was on CD, I have enough gear that EB is almost at 100% effective up-time, DH, FB, etc. was either being saved for something else, used or the damage that came in was so random and unexpected I had zero time to pop a CD.

 

Am I missing something? Am I totally derping? Is this just how it is? I've dug a little though the logs but not a bunch yet, I'm going dig though them a lot during the week but right now I got a lot of school happening. Hoping that some fresh eyes from people that do this as a main get shed some light on my situation.

 

Thanks much for the help, please feel free to take your time. I only raid on the weekends so it's not a big rush.

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It could be a couple things.  

  1. Since you're crit build, you're relying mostly on your dodge to get you through the physical portion of boss damage.
  2. Mastery would help smooth that damage, BUT don't do it.  Mastery kinda doesn't give you too much for the amount you gem, the only reason you would want to do it is if you're absolutely getting wrecked in the physical damage department on a progression boss.
  3. You may want to revise how you use guard.  I haven't looked at the logs, and TBH I'm not competent enough with tanks to know when you should (when looking at a log).  Best I can say is make sure you're using Guard with magic attacks, and EB, Shuffle, Expel Harm for the physical stuff, while Dampen Harm for a mix of the two when you think you need or don't need guard.
  4. The next thing I can think of is your Purifying Brew usage. When do you use it? I think the best time to use it is when you know you're about to start spiking or after that first tick of spike.  It will clear a good load off when you know you're taking damage, or you could add FortBrew with it as well to take less stagger damage.  Don't spam it when you get red stagger and always try to pool one chi of your 5 for that purify.

Thats the main things I can think of.  Other small things you can do is make sure you're using Grapple Weapon on adds for the damage reduction (when you need it), Zen Med a magic attack during its cast to save Guard or Fort Brew for something else.  (Same for Diffuse if you opt for it), and if you have the room for it, make use of Transendance (very situational) to kite a boss slightly when the raid isn't on it so you can avoid some melee swings, obviously don't kite it away from the raid if you can help it, but if a boss is moving he's less likely to strike you with melee as much if you can get a speed advantage.

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Hey Locky,

 

I haven't had a massive look through the logs but i did have a quick browse of your thok kill. I will admit i havent been using Warcraft logs for long so i may have missed some but:

 

Fort Brew - 1 use

Dampen Harm/Diffuse Magic/Healing Elixers - None?

Zen Meditation - None?

Expel Harm - 7 uses

Healing Spheres - 1

Healthstone - None?

 

Your shuffle and EB uptime was great.

 

With the obvious lack of Cooldown uses for this fight(needed or not) this will affect your spikyness. It is in a way sometime unavoidable to be spiky at times especially after periods of downtime(fixate phases). What you do immediately before and after the damage is what will make or break you.

 

EB, Power guard, shuffle, dampen harm are all pre damage abilities. Having a healing sphere place beside you can also allow for a quick strafe heal and is set before the damage is taken.

 

Post damage Expel harm and purifying brew. Expel Harm can heal you for a great deal and provide a quick top up after an unmitigated hit. It is especially more powerful when guard active due to the self heal buff.

On the thok attempt you purified 8 times and had 13 heavy staggers. This seems to be within a range that i would expect, meaning you are not over purifying and appear to be tracking the stagger and not just hitting it every time the button glows.

 

Zen Meditation can be helpful not only to you but also your raid, 90% damage reduction(could be used to mitigate a thok breath). Its a channel that is broken by melee swing but if used when the boss ability has a cast time it can stop a large hit (eg a 4 stack Harrom frostorm strike etc)

 

I wouldn't be stressing too much because you have the fundamentals reasonably sorted (Shuffle and EB usage). I would just focus a bit more on the self healing and remember to use cooldowns, or even ask for one (pain supp, barkskin)

 

If you have a druid in your raid you could always get the symbiosis for a Survival Instincts if the symbiosis is free.

 

I might have a bit more of a look at the logs later but really looks not bad.

 

Happy Killing smile.png

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Purifying when I'm hitting red stagger, soon as I hit it and I have chi. Taking at most two red ticks before purify. 

 

I use Zen sparingly, just doing normals I haven't really hit a place where I needed it to much. Garrosh I use it during Whirl to soak that damage or to stand in Annihilate for roflstop veng cap.

 

Outside of that I've not really found it needed as a CD, I don't have issues with single huge hits. It's normally spike that kills me.

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Fort Brew - 1 use

Dampen Harm/Diffuse Magic/Healing Elixers - None?

Zen Meditation - None?

Expel Harm - 7 uses

Healing Spheres - 1

Healthstone - None?

 

 

I come from Prot Pally tanking so maybe I'm just not using the CDs right for a monk, with prot pally when I was using CDs were more of a planned usage based around ability's and phases that the boss/adds did. But this was during bleeding edge heroic progression.

 

Seems from what you're saying for CDs for monk at this level tanking they should be used almost more passively to reduce damage over all, rather then for planned moments of pain. This seems to track with how SoO is built and how monks work and the fact that I'm not doing bleeding edge. But it's a major mental shift for me.

 

My DH usage was trash on Thok and is normally trash, I forget that CD a lot it seems from what I've seen in my logs.

 

Healing spheres on Thok I used because my girlfriend was kiting Thok and had a DoT on her and was out of range of healers. So I threw some spheres out for her to run over. Is that something I should be using for myself more?

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Seems from what you're saying for CDs for monk at this level tanking they should be used almost more passively to reduce damage over all

IMO yes.

 

 

Is that something I should be using for myself more?

If your energy allows it yes, even use them to heal adds in Immerseus, offtank on Shamans. Can provide a lot of heals but watch your energy.

 

 

My DH usage was trash on Thok and is normally trash, I forget that CD a lot it seems from what I've seen in my logs.

DH and Diffuse magic are on such short CD's and are so powerful.

 

As a BrM you will spike at one point or another, its just how you recover or if the mechanic is known try to mitigate it as much as you can. It is a very busy spec where some form of mitigation or cd can always be active and monitored(the challenge why i love BrM).

 

I looked over your HP graphs and there doesn't seem to be many huge spikes that aren't expected damage.

 

Seems like you arent "missing or derping" at all tongue.png

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http://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/g6QptW23hcmHTwDy#type=damage&source=1&hostility=1&pins=auras%240%240.0.0.Any%2499231260.0.0.Monk%240.0.0.Any%24115308%240%24true%24%23f7ff00%5Eauras%240%240.0.0.Any%2499231260.0.0.Monk%240.0.0.Any%24115307%240%24true%24%230c76e8%5Eresources%240%240.0.0.Any%2499231260.0.0.Monk%240.0.0.Any%240%240%24true%24%23ff0000&start=7607358&end=7769700

 

 

That links to a fairly deep query I did that let me find my problem. Most of the issue was on Garrosh this week and I forget that fight wasnt in the first logs I linked.

 

What happened was that I was spending to much energy on keep RJW up and grabbing the adds and didn't have enough to gen enough chi to keep shuffle up right.  In the moment I didn't see this because I was watching everything but the thing that I assume is almost passive with how much I put it up just in basic rotation.

 

Totally my fault, I should have seen this gap in my play and it turns out that our hunter was MDing one pack of adds that I didn't know he was MDing.

 

Next week *should* be fixed for this issue. 

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As for purifying, If you see yourself dipping quickly, you should do it.  Though I've seen some tanks where they just ignore it for some time until they know they're in danger.  It might also have to do with how much you trust your healers.  I, for example, track stagger damage on a tank and would put a little more emphasis, on them, be it with a cooldown, passive HoTs (on my druid) or Enveloping Mist (on my monk), etc.  

 

When I was talking about Zen Med, I meant that instead of using Fort Brew for a bit hit you can Zen Med it and then FortBrew for the spiky, constant melee swings you're taking.  Makes better use of it IMO

 

Another thing is to track what cooldowns are being used on you such as, Iron Bark (1 min CD call for it often!), Hand of Sacrifice (Rets/prots give it too!), Pain Suppression, Guardian Spirit, Life Cocoon (More for soaking a big hit than damage reduction), etc..

 

I would recommend making a weak aura that pops up to show every CD that you have up on you in case they overlap.  By actively calling for single target cooldowns, you can let your red stagger go longer and it probably will go yellow after those big hits/unlucky RNG.

 

If you want to be a min-max tank, the worst problem I see with tanks in general is calling for externals.  When you don't call for it, the healers either don't use them or just use it re-actively which at that point may be null or too late.  Pick a cooldown from a healer you trust and has a relativity short one (Ironbark or Hand of Sacrifice are great choices) and designate that as the "Oh shit cooldown" that they will use to their judgement or you call for on the fly.  Remember for hand of sacrifice especially you can call for from Rets/Prots to help save the healer ones.

 

As for healing spheres, you can definitely use it for other people, its by far the BEST HPS spell in the game regardless of spec, but as Brewmonksta said you HAVE to watch your energy becasue it will hurt it after 2 or 3.  For yourself, you should only use it if you have your buffs up and you know that the next few hits will not kill you to stop to use it for the hit.  Its pretty niche and you really have to practice to use it correctly.  The easiest time to use it is probably when you're running and need healing. When you're stationary its a bit more complicated and situational.

 

Edit: Talking about healing spheres learn to watch for your Gift of the Ox spheres. While tanking these are AMAZING for spike damage because all you need to do is strafe over them and they will instantly heal you with all your AP.  If you're staying still there's always going to be a clump of them on either side of you (and maybe behind you? i forget) All you need to do is strafe to one side and you're good to go. (For a fight like thok make sure you get back into normal position)

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Hello Locky!

Firstly good on ya mate, for being so secure and confident to put yourself up for such scrutiny. You're clearly a guy who puts improvement ahead of ego; a winning formula. Not that I’m qualified to give advice but I'll chuck in my two cents in the hopes that it helps a bit.

Your first combat log gets very interesting at the 1:30 mark. You enter it with shuffle up, and have a long string of parries and dodges. This is synonymous with good tanking, ie active mitigation up and facing your targets.

Next you take iron star damage followed by a string of unmitigated, unparried/dodged hits. That looks like one of two things happened, both of which can make adjustments for. The first is you were using the stacking strategy and you got surrounded, and the second guess I’d make it that the iron star knocked the adds into a position such that they were behind you. Your damage profile suggests that your mitigation fell off and that you may have been attacked from behind. So I’d suggest examining the following:

1. Increasing your shuffle uptime – 80% is low in phase 1. You’d want 95+%.

2. Don’t overly focus on RJW beyond having sufficient threat, until you’re really comfortable with your survival. With the amount of vengeance you’ll have, they’ll stick to you anyway, particularly with keg smash.

3. If you’re not doing the stack strat, then don’t be afraid of moving Garrosh and the adds around to ensure they are in front of you. The iron star hitting the mobs can often make repositioning necessary.

4. If you are using the stack strat, be vigilent of adds moving around you. Leg sweep can serve as an incredibly good defensive cool down, as it can protect you from adds that get behind you.

5. Consider using Fortifying Brew when this happens. Dampen Harm, and to a lesser extent guard, aren’t very useful when you’re taking dozens of smaller hits.

TL;DR – Focus on active mitigation uptime, and add positioning. These will give you the biggest bang for buck.

One last thing I’d mention is getting in the proving grounds. Gold and Endless have very similar damage profiles to Garrosh Phase One, and provide an objective measure of your own performance.

Good luck and post screen shots of your imminent success!

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Good luck and post screen shots of your imminent success!

 

 

Thanks for the word mate, I saw what you saw in the logs so it's good to know that I'm not missing anything. 

 

We downed Garrosh Normal in that group for the last few weeks, I downed him on heroic on my main about two months ago. So no screenshots of the kill lol.

 

Thanks for help the lot of you, very glad to know that I wasn't missing something major and the tips I've picked up will help a good bit. Monk is crazy different from the other tank classes, still throws me off a little.

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I just wanted to add my 2 cents also. I am by no means good at reading logs but I saw that Power Guard has a 48% uptime which means your using it on CD if you know when a big spike of damage is coming in it is better to save guard for those times and avoid a big spike of damage over smaller hits. Using a 2H weapon tends to be a bit better for EB uptime since you get 2-3 stacks per crit compared to 1 for DW although probably not a huge difference. Watch out for that Iron Star every second your off a mob is a chance for stagger to drop and spike damage to happen.

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I just wanted to add my 2 cents also. I am by no means good at reading logs but I saw that Power Guard has a 48% uptime which means your using it on CD if you know when a big spike of damage is coming in it is better to save guard for those times and avoid a big spike of damage over smaller hits. Using a 2H weapon tends to be a bit better for EB uptime since you get 2-3 stacks per crit compared to 1 for DW although probably not a huge difference. Watch out for that Iron Star every second your off a mob is a chance for stagger to drop and spike damage to happen.

 

You're reading the log wrong.

 

Guard had a 17.44% uptime for a total of 5.64mil healing.

 

Last I had heard two 1h was the preferied methiod of gearing for 10man, unless the 2h weapon was a massive upgrade i.e. 10ilvl+ over the avg. of the two 1h it was replacing. Do you have a source that says otherwise?

 

Stagger never dropped due to kiting mobs for Iron Star, additionally the Iron Star only dealt  530k damage over two hits. Perfectly manageable.

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I saw that Power Guard has a 48% uptime 

 

Power Guard refers to the 15% buff you get when you Tiger Palm

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Power Guard refers to the 15% buff you get when you Tiger Palm

 

He is still reading the log wrong then as Power Guard had a 60.17% uptime.

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Last I had heard two 1h was the preferied methiod of gearing for 10man, unless the 2h weapon was a massive upgrade i.e. 10ilvl+ over the avg. of the two 1h it was replacing. Do you have a source that says otherwise?

2H gives you faster EB stacks and 1H give you an extra dancing steel. 2H is better for "tanking" and 1H are better for DPS due to the extra stats and this is worth more in 10 mans.

I dont think the +10ilvl thing is correct.

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2H gives you faster EB stacks and 1H give you an extra dancing steel. 2H is better for "tanking" and 1H are better for DPS due to the extra stats and this is worth more in 10 mans.

I dont think the +10ilvl thing is correct.

 

 

Ahhh, I see I see. Thank you.

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2H gives you faster EB stacks and 1H give you an extra dancing steel. 2H is better for "tanking" and 1H are better for DPS due to the extra stats and this is worth more in 10 mans.

I dont think the +10ilvl thing is correct.

Hey Brewmonksta,

This is great information - do you have a source for it? I've always thought that EB stacks were normalised, so that while DW gave smoother stack accumulation, they were equal over time.

I've gained my understanding from Sunnier's blog, which says that 2H come with more stamina at the cost of a tiny fraction of dps. Her article doesn't quote sources or have references to credible sims, but it can be found here: http://sunniersartofwar.com/#weapons.

Cheers!

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I cant remember exactly where i read it but i believe its got to do with the passive "way of the monk"  buff which increases attack speed with 2H weapons by 40%.

As far as i am aware the formula is:

1H: [1.5*WeaponSpeed/2.6]2H: [3.0*WeaponSpeed/3.6]

So with the 40% buff it makes the 2H stack it slightly faster with the "up to 3 stacks per auto attack crit strike"

 

But yes much like sunniers blog states really the differences are so small  that it really wont differ. The stats are more important.

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