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Julez

Gear Question - Wrist

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Hey guys,

 

so my friend is playing Frost mainly (555 without Legendary Cloak)

 

So atm he is using:

Avool's Ancestral Bracers

 

 

but then we did Galakras HC and the following Wrist dropped:

 

 

Scalebane Bracers

 

 

So now the question is which one is better for frost?

 

Is the Int gain from the Heroic Warforged Wrists better then the Mastery / Haste stats from the flexx one?

 

 

Appreciate the help

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Go with the ilvls :D

 

That's such a huge upgrade it's worth it. Look at my Pennyroyal ring. I hate it, but it's got teh ilvlz!

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Go with the ilvls biggrin.png

 

No disrepects but I'm not very comfortable with this argument (Especially from you wink.png)

 

Why not "Go with the stats!"

 

I don't know what build the friend of the OP is playing, so i choose the mixture build and take the AMR weights from Akraen's comprehensive guide (+ default AMR values for Int and Hit):

 

Avool's Ancestral Bracers

1027 Int (Factor: 6.35)

695 Haste (Factor: 3.8)

668 Mastery (Factor: 3.45)

 

(1027 * 6.35) + (695 * 3.8) + (668 * 3.45) = 11467, 05

 

Scalebane Bracers

1384 Int (Factor: 6,35)

1015 Hit (Factor 6)

765 Crit (Factor 1)

 

(1384 * 6,35) + (1015 * 6) + (765 * 1) = 15643,4

 

The important thing is that Scalebane Bracers have better stats than Avool's Ancestral Bracers. The higer iLvl itsself is irrelevant.

 

Conclusion:

Don't choose an item for higher iLvls but for better stats!

 

@ Akraen: It was not my intention to object your answer. But one could get the impression that higher iLvls are always better (which ain't true). I've seen too much characters equipping senseless items, just to get their iLvls up. Im pretty sure, you would not use the Pennroyal Ring, if it would not improve your stats.

 

PS: I'm aware that my calculation does not reflect reforging, hit cap or haste soft cap, but there was no armory link. Please correct me, if my calculations are wrong. 

Edited by Anderson

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No, because with Cataclysm 4.0 they came up with a new formula to calculate how item level corresponds to stats.

 

All primary stats scale linearly with item level and all primary stats are roughly equal double the best secondary stat (there are exceptions, but for frost mage int is worth just less than 2x haste and 2x mastery).

 

Secondary stats have a more complex formula to retain proportions among two choices of secondary stats (aside from strange items like Timeless items or primordius bracers).

 

Scalebane bracers have like the worst stat combination for us ever, but the intellect difference from the item level (which is linear and common among all items) will outpace any combination of even our best stats. The only exception to this is when we are so far over hit cap that we can't reforge enough of it away.

 

So you can go with the ilvls when it's across difficulties. 561 vs 567 or 574 vs 580 on the other hand is more muddy waters. Was just trying to keep it simple for the OP. Your calculation is a good way to represent it of course.

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I actually want to correct you a bit Akraen. All stats scale exponentially with ilvl!

If they would've scaled linearly then upgrading them wasn't worthwhile straight away.

 

The formula for main stat on bracer is (a little rough, but quite close):

6.7 * 1.15 ^ (ilvl/15)

All items scale similarly, just need to replace 6.7 with something else.

For secondary stats you have to sum both (to derive the coefficient) and apply the formula to get the sum, then split the stats in whatever way.

 

But this is more to strengthen your point actually, ilvl upgrade is huge. And the bigger the ilvl is, the bigger the upgrade (in contrast to linear).

 

Edited for clarification on secondaries.

Edited by lynx

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I'm a business guy not a math guy. I just do math because nobody else will.

 

Anyway I mean consistently relative to itself.

 

If you divide the intellect by the item level across a series of item levels, you find that the difference is always 0.2.

 

Difference of 13 ilvls across the series of 540, 553, 566, divided each by their intellect equals a stepping of 0.2. To me that seemed linear, but as a business guy I didn't think like a math guy :P

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If you divide the intellect by the item level across a series of item levels, you find that the difference is always 0.2.

I actually done it (for bracers), just to verify, and it resulted in:

1027/540 ~= 1.9

1159/553 ~= 2.1

1308/566 ~= 2.31

So this ratio increases, as exponential behavior should smile.png

EDIT: was late and all, so I didn't express my thought well. You're right that the difference is close 0.2, although it's not if you check across more ilvls. Anyway, the fact that the ratio difference increases already indicates a non linearity, because for linear you'd expect a zero. I know you're not a math guy (while I actually am tongue.png) so I thought to clear this point out.

Edited by lynx

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well also u could tell even if ur not calculating that dps is more and more increased with item lvl 
difference when u were 520 to 530 maybe was 10-15k (if u exclude not getting meta gem and cloak) and increasing item lvl by 10 on 565 ilvl would boost u for 50k dps

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No, because with Cataclysm 4.0 they came up with a new formula to calculate how item level corresponds to stats.

 

All primary stats scale linearly with item level and all primary stats are roughly equal double the best secondary stat (there are exceptions, but for frost mage int is worth just less than 2x haste and 2x mastery).

 

Secondary stats have a more complex formula to retain proportions among two choices of secondary stats (aside from strange items like Timeless items or primordius bracers).

 

Scalebane bracers have like the worst stat combination for us ever, but the intellect difference from the item level (which is linear and common among all items) will outpace any combination of even our best stats. The only exception to this is when we are so far over hit cap that we can't reforge enough of it away.

 

So you can go with the ilvls when it's across difficulties. 561 vs 567 or 574 vs 580 on the other hand is more muddy waters. Was just trying to keep it simple for the OP. Your calculation is a good way to represent it of course.

 

Thanks for the explanation. I had a similar scenario with my own gear:

I wear Bone-Inlaid Sandals and have Toxic Tornado Treads in my bags. I always thought I am smart sticking to the boots I wear, rather than the ones with the higher iLvl.

 

After reading your post, I was sure I had a mistake in my calculations. Found out I forgot to take reforging in consideration. Reforging 40% crit to haste or mastery (depending on my soft cape for haste) the stats of Toxic Tornado Treads are a lot better than Bone-Inlaid Sandals.

 

Now I am going to find a whiteboard and write "Akraen is always right!" a houndred times biggrin.png (Of course after changing the boots)

Edited by Anderson

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This is a pretty neat discussion and I am  glad to have stumbled across it. I am at that point where my guild is slowly making some heroic progress and some heroic pieces drop and am always confused about what to roll on and equip. I am pretty sure my destro warlock buddy will hate me for rolling on a lot of his mastery gear but a girl's gotta eat!

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I actually done it (for bracers), just to verify, and it resulted in:

1027/540 ~= 1.9

1159/553 ~= 2.1

1308/566 ~= 2.31

So this ratio increases, as exponential behavior should smile.png

EDIT: was late and all, so I didn't express my thought well. You're right that the difference is close 0.2, although it's not if you check across more ilvls. Anyway, the fact that the ratio difference increases already indicates a non linearity, because for linear you'd expect a zero. I know you're not a math guy (while I actually am tongue.png) so I thought to clear this point out.

I could use your math help for WoD stuff, then.

 

I'm an idea guy. I work with concepts and spot inefficiencies. For a living I'm an analyst, and it's a passion. I see patterns very quickly when nobody else does, including just when something appears wrong but I don't even know what.

 

So quite often I can reason out math stuffs on my own, but not in the show-your-work kind of way. I used to irritate professors in college, because I often arrive close to, or exactly at, the right answer using a completely different (sometimes better, sometimes worse) way of getting there.

 

My strange angle and approach to looking at everything in the world is mostly annoying but sometimes very useful, it helped get frost mages raiding again in WoW at least.

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I'll provide any help I can :)

And your help to the frost mage community has been invaluable so far, so keep annoying people all you want if it brings good results :p

Edited by lynx

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