Dreamtears

Spirit - the most subjective stat of all yet treated as not.

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Spirit - the question often arises how much one should have. General research tells us 'until you are comfortable" and if you dig a bit deeper you often find people suggesting to get down to 10k spirit or reforge as much as possible. However spirit is not a black and white stat and often, I believe, advice is given out without the full picture.

 

"Until you are comfortable" - I know a priest who runs with 18k mana as he like flash heal for those "uh oh got to heal up quick moments". He is comfortable with his spirit. Majority of priests will argue against this of course (wouldn't expect otherwise). How much spirit you need will depend on your playing style - the question one should ask before the fateful spirit question - is my play style the most efficient way.

 

Reforge out of spirit as much as you can. According to a lot of reading I have done disc priests, shaman, monk and druids don't need much spirit. I think often this advice comes from hardcore raiders or at the very least in a very efficient team. However most of us ordinary folks have to heal right up to enrage timers and having to  heal more due to people (including ourselves) taking way more damage then necessary, or healing with that disc priest who still thinks atonement healing is the only healing spelling is needed even in big aoe damage fights and that atonement healing was never nerfed. Depending on your raid team, your co-healers, the length of the fight will have a huge impact on how much spirit you need.

 

Carrying the other low spirit healer player. Ever been in a situation where the other player has gone oom as they cut out so much spirit? You are forced to use your spirit regeneration toolkit - divne hymn, mana tide totem or innervate - when it doesn't suit you for them? And when you would use it - to ensure you don't go oom - you can not - forcing you to back off in heals. So you carry more spirit for those moments as you do not want to cause a wipe because you are being a tight ass on putting a mana tide/divine hymn/innerate for the other healer.

 

The HPS game - frustrating as it is - average raid leaders and dps do look at hps. Yes they do. Yes, yes and yes it is NOT the full picture and can be a very poor picture. However healers have to hear 'oh the hps is to low that means its the healers fault we died" or "your hps is to low - they are not a good healer". So to avoid that some people have opted to always be casting healing spells - which means need more spirit. In this case people may carry more spirit to avoid becoming the scapegoat.

 

I hear about the person who has solo healed some heroic encounter with 10k spirit and even,weirdly, told to me as if it is some gigantic hint I could do the same feat in my raid team. No I can not - I am ordinary, I am not in heroic gear and me and my team mates do stand in crap.

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I understand what you're saying. But I think it still comes back to what has been suggested: carry as much spirit as to what makes you feel comfortable.

 

At no place in that sentence does it suggest to drop spirit to a comfortable level. So, I believe that it can relate to any of your examples above.

 

I'd also like to point out that any of those situations can be fixed with higher stats in haste/mastery/int as well. Higher int means higher heals, so your standard low mana/low throughput heal can now heal for more.

 

While I do understand your post, I still firmly believe that you want to carry as much spirit that makes you comfortable. Whether it be a lot or a little.

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Spirit is definitely a flexible stat, and very finicky.  We try to recommend what we feel is the best, and what you can do to play more efficiently.  And it's not like we're always recommending the highest skill play (Such as Magma Recall gaming on Resto Sham, or running 6k spirit on a Disc priest by properly gaming Rapture/Solace/Mindbender), but we can't assume a skill level for anyone, and it would be dishonest to not mention things like that happening.

 

Less Spirit will always make your heals 'better', but it won't make your healers better.  The problem comes in when low spirit players just read the advice, but don't have the knowledge to execute.  Something like a Monk saying they need 12k to run, when they should get sufficient regen simply from hitcapping and Mana Tea.  Or a Disc Priest running 15k spirit, because that's what they need to spam Flash Heals instead of Binding Heals or bubbles.

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Speaking from only a Priest PoV:

 

This is something the Priest Forums are guilty of often.  There will undoubtedly be someone who says your Spirit is too high.  Personally, I make a cognizant effort to use the line as sparingly as possible.  I do make recommendations of where they should start based on their current logs, build, progression and what tools are out there to make them more comfortable (mana batteries, WA, Ingela's, Hymn/Sha, etc).

 

The point you make about their team and current content consumptions is absolutely correct.  There are a few in the Priest community here that will reference it when handing out advice or playing devil's advocate to the "hard line Spirit" folks.

 

As a player that is not in a HM setting, there is considerable work that has to be done to better yourself/playstyle/efficiency completely independent from how good/bad your teammates are.  Researching it is just the beginning and Spirit is just one of many things to work on and it will change as dictated by your increasing skill and raiding environment. In most cases it is harder for this type of player to see gains in their work because of a lower playtime and even lower time to implement your research in an appropriate environment.  Raiding once or twice a week with an ever changing raid team and healing core you may never play w/ a set amount of Spirit.  I (being elitist only half the time) still carry the Sha and Galakras staff to switch out during fights when Geoda is making me heal more often and every bit of Spirit will count to reach the end.

 

In the end, I hope that the next time you or a healing member looks for assistance that the responses are rigid in the right places and flexible in others.

 

GL with the progress and it sounds like it doesn't need to be said but I'll just reiterate your concern that not all advice/opinions are applicable; and if it's not let's hope that it increases the discussion and the OP gets more out of it.

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My experience from a raid leading perspective for SoO.

Monk: go as close to 5100 spirit as possible but in some cases it's better than mastery (such as poor play

Disc: low spirit needs. Less than 10k because of mechanics.

HolyP: very dynamic, can be little can be lots. Depends on the priest, usually 12-15k+ in general

Shaman: if crit build, (which is best throughput atm) you can get away with little spirit. Some still cling to the "mana battery" for 25 where they get as much as possible.

Druid: 12k minimum in general. It's where innervate is the same pre nerf. It can range from 12-15k.

Paladin: I actually don't know. Paladins have had weird times where they either get only spirit gems or only mastery. At the moment it seems mastery. But it wasn't wrong to see Paladins before get only spirit.

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With the exception of monk this expansion, and general mid range gear levels you can normalize spirit across specs. In my opinion you shouldn't have more than 15k spirit regardless because the extra stats are better than the spirit and you would benefit much more by improving how you play or how the people around you play than gimping your throughput.

We stress "enough" because it is subjective, within a range. And the norm that people would even quantify only comes during the time period you are asking.

"enough" HAS to be used for it to work in any guide that lasts through an expansion because that number will change. The players during the time period you are asking will give you the accepted "norm".

Your right though. It's not subjective, but at the same time it is. It all depends WHEN and what length of time you are asking.

Again, I exclude monks because they are broken. There no no reason you should have more spirit than your gear allows you to get rid of. (9k? I think) as a monk right now, crit is everybit as useful as spirit plus more.

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I am ordinary, I am not in heroic gear and me and my team mates do stand in crap.

 

Less Spirit will always make your heals 'better', but it won't make your healers better. 

 

 

As a player that is not in a HM setting, there is considerable work that has to be done to better yourself/playstyle/efficiency completely independent from how good/bad your teammates are ... In most cases it is harder for this type of player to see gains in their work because of a lower playtime and even lower time to implement your research in an appropriate environment.

 

Amen, amen, and amen! Oh, and Krazy, I miss your cute panda face graphic tongue.png

 

On a (personal) good note, I'm going to be running with a different guild for two weeks - I hope to post logs (in a separate thread!) to see if Gwen, et al, can help me hone my skills (and Geo, am LOVING the pally heals atm!)

Edited by Maplefire
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Spirit is a tricky size.

 

People are right to treat it as a product of circumstance. If you can not go through a fight, assuming you play ideally, without going oom, spirit is the only remedy to get you more mana, save for stop casting entirely. If your raid is taking more damage or you fancy using more expensive spells, you'll need mana to accomodate these situations. The length of the fight is also important since you'll be relying more on spirit the longer fight are.

 

But I get a feeling that people are keen on overestimating the utility of spirit.

 

Every point of spirit gives you 0.564 mana per five seconds. Scaling up to more meaningful numbers, it means 2000 spirit is a mana regen gain of 13536 mana per minute. For a druid that's 1.3 rejuvenations extra per minute. For a priest it's one prayer of healing extra per minute. For a paladin it covers 63% of one holy radiance per minute . It's a similar story with healing rain and shamans. Keeping the 2000 figure, it's equal to 3.3% crit, 4.7% haste and some mastery, depending on the exact mastery. This means that that extra spell comes at a significant reduction to your throughput.

 

Bottom line, spirit is not a terribly great source of mana regeneration, especially considering the cost.

 

I've pointed this out over on the priest forums before, but it bears mention again. Today spirit is a minor part of your mana economy.

 

Hamlet brilliantly shows this over on his blod(link for the interested: http://iam.yellingontheinternet.com/2014/02/11/healing-theory-part-6-the-mana-economy/) using his druid as an example. At 12k spirit, in a 6 minute fight, spirit was only 26% of his total mana economy. This figure will vary by class depending on their alternative sources for mana regen, disc priests for example have it clock in at 11-18%, but the point to take from this is that utilizing your other means of mana regeneration will play a bigger part in you having enough mana.

 

But your sources of direct mana regeneration are not the only things we need to talk about. Inefficient spell choices will also impact your healing done. Casting Power Word: Shield on a target that won't be taking much damage will mean the heal is not fully utilized and the mana is effectively wasted. One PWS is worth 13.7k mana, or more than you would gain in a minute from 2k spirit. Casting rejuvenation on a similar target is similarly wasteful although some of it will be picked up by Bloom.

 

Diagnosing issues like this -- tendencies to cast spells on targets where it can't be justified, will yield a bigger net increase to your mana economy than simply increasing your spirit will regardless of what difficulty you raid on. It can easily be magnitudes more mana we're talking about. Learning not to cast spells that will have no effect will give better results than increasing your spirit to make up for such mistakes will.

 

So yes, while recommending certain spirit levels is not something you should do, the entire debate about spirit is moot since spirit is a poor stat to begin with and should be a last resort if you have trouble finishing a fight with more than fumes left. Shifting the focus to better choices of spells will give better results.

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