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Unsure about what stat priority, need a little enlightment.

37 posts in this topic

Hello there icy-veiners, Just want to wish you a happy new year in these dark warlock times of World of Warcraft.

 

Title's pretty clear about my intentions, I'm not sure what stat I should prioritze.

I see people with mastery enchantments and gems, even though all the guides tell meto prioritize critical strike when I play destro. I'm pretty much only playing Destro at the moment. Not really sure about the other two specs, Affliction is just plain boring and not how fun it used to be and I've never gotten into Demonology really.

 

I've been told that mastery is good better if for aoe fights and overall damage, so I tried to enchant some mastery and removed my crit gems, but I feel like I've lost a lot of damage.

Should I go for only crit prioritize? or should I stick with mastery anyways?

 

Thank you for even reading this post and it would be very appreciated if you would reply.

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If you ONLY play Destruction then I advise you go for Crit. Otherwise Mastery is king.

With that said simcraft barely gave me 100 extra DPS by swapping 300 mastery for crit, so it really doesn't matter all that much.

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Also, if you are using Aff/Destro, you likely will be using Destro on fights where you will shadowburn. Mastery directly affects shadowburn, so on shadowburn cleaving fights, mastery will reign king.

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If you ONLY play Destruction then I advise you go for Crit. Otherwise Mastery is king.

With that said simcraft barely gave me 100 extra DPS by swapping 300 mastery for crit, so it really doesn't matter all that much.

Doesn't Havoc scale far better with Mastery? I have no idea how to do the math but the way I see it, Crit sims high only because it increases ember generation against a single target. I guess it doesn't matter much because people mainly go mastery nowadays anyway.

For Destro with Cata, would multi be the best? Or crit>multi with haste being super useless.

Edited by Mikedawg

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Mastery takes over as long as you have shit to shadowburn. Otherwise, crit affects chaos bolt and increases ember generation. You won't take mastery gear over crit gear for single target until 6.1

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Mastery takes over as long as you have shit to shadowburn. Otherwise, crit affects chaos bolt and increases ember generation. You won't take mastery gear over crit gear for single target until 6.1

Mastery affects Chaos Bolt on a larger point by point basis.  Crit is just BARELY a winner of Mastery in a single target situation (of which we have one) and Mastery takes over more and more as long as Havoc comes into play.

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Mastery affects Chaos Bolt on a larger point by point basis.  Crit is just BARELY a winner of Mastery in a single target situation (of which we have one) and Mastery takes over more and more as long as Havoc comes into play.

With that being said though, mastery overall wins as your single target damage will go down very slightly but your cleave will go up quite a bit more. 

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I agree with what everyone is saying but for some reason sparkuggz is rolling all crit enchants/gems at 684 ilevel.

In game testing (varying pieces of gear with diff secondaries and same ilevel) and basic logic of increasing ember generation via shadowburns and havoc, I feel like crit is greatly overestimated.

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I would think for Destruction that more crit would produce more embers which would produce more CBs. I always take Crit>Mastery when I do Destruction. But it could also just be playstyle too. With how close secondary stats are your playstyle is what is determining most of your dps anyway.

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I agree with what everyone is saying but for some reason sparkuggz is rolling all crit enchants/gems at 684 ilevel.

In game testing (varying pieces of gear with diff secondaries and same ilevel) and basic logic of increasing ember generation via shadowburns and havoc, I feel like crit is greatly overestimated.

It could have to do with him doing some specific role where you had to have enough of a stat to ensure something happened.  For example, during early Heroic Garrosh progression, I had to reforge out of about 2500 Haste into 2500 Crit in order to have 2 Chaos Bolts + Shadowburn kill the Engineer.  Spark has gone back and forth between Crit and Mastery and you shouldn't follow his choice as gospel because things change at 684 versus 664 as well as your guild from Method.  (not you specifically, Cardio, just anyone reading this)

 

I would think for Destruction that more crit would produce more embers which would produce more CBs. I always take Crit>Mastery when I do Destruction. But it could also just be playstyle too. With how close secondary stats are your playstyle is what is determining most of your dps anyway.

The TIMING of Chaos Bolt is important, moreso than the quantity you spit out.  Crit is RNG to me, and thus I avoid it.  If Mastery and Crit were equal, I'd go Mastery without a second thought.  If Mastery was 5% less effective but smoother on standard deviations on my DPS, I'd still stick with consistency. 

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With that being said though, mastery overall wins as your single target damage will go down very slightly but your cleave will go up quite a bit more. 

 

This isn't really true anymore. The 15 second CD on havoc actually bumped crit value more than mastery, as requiring an ember every 15 seconds solely to havoc is extreme. Even before that, crit was better than mastery on everything, post RoF nerf. Ember generation is gutted, so unless you're spamming shadowburn every few seconds, mastery doesn't have a chance.

 

Crit holds a strong 15-25% lead over mastery on every target count before shadowburn refund is factored in. Unless you're generating THAT many more embers from shadowburn, it's not really worth going mastery.

 

If you're running demo/destro, it's actually beneficial to continue stacking crit, as destruction loses significantly more from mastery over crit than demo does from crit over mastery.

 

Notable exception to this is weapon enchant. It makes almost no difference which you run for destruction, between crit and mastery, but demo benefits majorly from having the mastery enchant.

Edited by gahhda

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If you're running demo/destro, it's actually beneficial to continue stacking crit, as destruction loses significantly more from mastery over crit than demo does from crit over mastery.

How significant, really? 

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How significant, really? 

 

Significance is determined by your investment in small numbers, and your understanding of realistic fights.

 

They both lose nearly the exact same amount on a single target. The difference comes when you factor in multi-target fights.

 

Crit scales extremely well for small target demonology fights due to doom generating a vast majority of our demonic fury. It even keeps up in value with mastery for sustained aoe, which is very unrealistic. If you need to burst adds down, mastery will clearly win, but there aren't really any fights outside of tectus where you would be using chaos wave. Possibly kor'agh, too.

 

Destruction multi-target, on the other hand, is incredibly reliant on large quantities of crit to sustain ember generation. This is particularly true for large scale aoe (6+).

 

The value of crit on 2 targets for destruction, as an example, is 17.9% ahead of mastery.

On 8 targets, that value increases to a full third higher.

 

The value of mastery on 2 targets for demonology is 4.25% ahead of crit.

On 8 targets, that value stagnates around 3.8%.

 

It is true that enchants make up a relatively small portion of stat budget, and therefore you are unlikely to achieve gains larger than 2-3% on a single target. Multi-target that value might go up to something as high as 5%, but probably not more than that. This is much more applicable to over-all gearing choices than just enchants.

Edited by gahhda

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Significance is determined by your investment in small numbers, and your understanding of realistic fights.

 

They both lose nearly the exact same amount on a single target. The difference comes when you factor in multi-target fights.

 

Crit scales extremely well for small target demonology fights due to doom generating a vast majority of our demonic fury. It even keeps up in value with mastery for sustained aoe, which is very unrealistic. If you need to burst adds down, mastery will clearly win, but there aren't really any fights outside of tectus where you would be using chaos wave. Possibly kor'agh, too.

 

Destruction multi-target, on the other hand, is incredibly reliant on large quantities of crit to sustain ember generation. This is particularly true for large scale aoe (6+).

 

The value of crit on 2 targets for destruction, as an example, is 17.9% ahead of mastery.

On 8 targets, that value increases to a full third higher.

 

The value of mastery on 2 targets for demonology is 4.25% ahead of crit.

On 8 targets, that value stagnates around 3.8%.

 

It is true that enchants make up a relatively small portion of stat budget, and therefore you are unlikely to achieve gains larger than 2-3% on a single target. Multi-target that value might go up to something as high as 5%, but probably not more than that. This is much more applicable to over-all gearing choices than just enchants.

I for example play Destro only when there are adds to Shadowburn (Bracken, Ko'ragh, Imperator) therefore, crit's value diminishes by a lot because I can get all the embers I need from adds. Mastery scales better damage wise, as point for point it directly affects Chaos Bolt at a higher level than crit, as well as Shadowburn, and your other fillers. 

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I can see Crit having value for Destruction AoE because of the need to crit to generate Embers, so that helps for Fire and Brimstone.  Stupid oversight on my part.

 

Considering how bad Crit is for Affliction, the Crit>Mastery build would ONLY be for Demo/Destro builds.  Somehow in my gearing path (finding highest item level stuff), I've accumulated more Multistrike than anything else.  I'm parsing moderately well with Multi > Mastery > Crit > Haste > Vers. 

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I can see Crit having value for Destruction AoE because of the need to crit to generate Embers, so that helps for Fire and Brimstone.  Stupid oversight on my part.

 

Considering how bad Crit is for Affliction, the Crit>Mastery build would ONLY be for Demo/Destro builds.  Somehow in my gearing path (finding highest item level stuff), I've accumulated more Multistrike than anything else.  I'm parsing moderately well with Multi > Mastery > Crit > Haste > Vers. 

Even in full crit gear, its almost impossible to keep FnB +5 seconds without crit procs/ds. 

Edit:

Crit enchanted gear i should say*

Edited by Noveliss

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Even in full crit gear, its almost impossible to keep FnB +5 seconds without crit procs/ds. 

Edit:

Crit enchanted gear i should say*

That's because our gear sucks for the first tier.  Once you get to about 33% Crit, you can reasonably maintain FnB with 5 targets as long as Immolate is ticking.  You'll just need a good base to start on, and presently there is no fight in Highmaul that faciliates FnB aside from having 8 Motes on Tectus or having 7 of the small adds to cleave on during Imperator.

 

One caveot to remember to all of this is no one has tier yet and Highmaul is essentially a raid being used by Blizzard to balance classes for the real raid, BRF.  Think of Highmaul as one big Heroic Dungeon where trying to optimize setups is going to be difficult and lackluster.

 

When tier enters the equation, based on what I've seen, the 2pc and 4pc is essential to all 3 specs in that they are all significant gains.  Trinkets will become real again instead of static sticks or reliable 120 second CDs.  I'm hopeful that the fights become more complex.  I think Highmaul is basically a giant proving grounds for us to go into BRF.

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That's because our gear sucks for the first tier.  Once you get to about 33% Crit, you can reasonably maintain FnB with 5 targets as long as Immolate is ticking.  You'll just need a good base to start on, and presently there is no fight in Highmaul that faciliates FnB aside from having 8 Motes on Tectus or having 7 of the small adds to cleave on during Imperator.

 

One caveot to remember to all of this is no one has tier yet and Highmaul is essentially a raid being used by Blizzard to balance classes for the real raid, BRF.  Think of Highmaul as one big Heroic Dungeon where trying to optimize setups is going to be difficult and lackluster.

 

When tier enters the equation, based on what I've seen, the 2pc and 4pc is essential to all 3 specs in that they are all significant gains.  Trinkets will become real again instead of static sticks or reliable 120 second CDs.  I'm hopeful that the fights become more complex.  I think Highmaul is basically a giant proving grounds for us to go into BRF.

One thing to remember though, is when we gain more spell power mastery is also going to jump up in terms of effectiveness. I imagine it will be much like SoO for stat weights. Where you'll want to go mastery>crit just because of the shear amount of damage you'll be getting from mastery.

Currently on Chaos Bolt alone I have:

Mastery =  8 dmg per point

Crit = 3.7 dmg per point

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I for example play Destro only when there are adds to Shadowburn (Bracken, Ko'ragh, Imperator) therefore, crit's value diminishes by a lot because I can get all the embers I need from adds. Mastery scales better damage wise, as point for point it directly affects Chaos Bolt at a higher level than crit, as well as Shadowburn, and your other fillers. 

 

Bracken adds spawn on a 50 second timer. The majority of the fight is actually just two target cleave.

 

If kor'agh adds die slow enough for you to actually shadowburn them, more power to you, but it's still an almost entirely single target fight.

 

Imperator is the only fight in the tier where mastery might actually stand some chance against crit, and that's only if you're really good at shadowburn sniping adds in transition phases. It's actually worse for mythic anyway, because a larger portion of the fight is aoe on mythic.

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I JUST WANT MY FUCKING 2 PIECE SO I CAN PLAY AFFLICTION WITHOUT A GOD DAMN TERRORGUARD. 

 

Did I say that too loudly?

 

Destruction's set bonuses are just cool - both damage wise and visually.  Anyone testing the Destro 4pc had to have a shit-eating grin when they saw 5 Chaos Bolts come out from one cast when the 4pc proc'd.  Demo's add HoG charge which is cool and the demon bonus is passive and cool visually.

 

There is NOTHING cool about maintaining your rotation and gaining 5% more Nightfall procs while being almost essential to balance out the use of Soulburn:Haunt into being a talent on single target choice. 

 

Stats will fluxuate pretty heavily with tier - that's one thing I didn't sim out - I just kept the same priorities and took the set bonuses off.  That's a whole day's worth of sim factors and one I won't be able to do without alcohol - so interpret results at your own risk.

 

Gahhda, is there some easier way to test stuff like that?  Make 3 sets of gear, run with set bonuses, to see if the stats vary with or without tier?  Is that even worth it? 

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I JUST WANT MY FUCKING 2 PIECE SO I CAN PLAY AFFLICTION WITHOUT A GOD DAMN TERRORGUARD. 

 

Did I say that too loudly?

 

Destruction's set bonuses are just cool - both damage wise and visually.  Anyone testing the Destro 4pc had to have a shit-eating grin when they saw 5 Chaos Bolts come out from one cast when the 4pc proc'd.  Demo's add HoG charge which is cool and the demon bonus is passive and cool visually.

 

There is NOTHING cool about maintaining your rotation and gaining 5% more Nightfall procs while being almost essential to balance out the use of Soulburn:Haunt into being a talent on single target choice. 

 

Stats will fluxuate pretty heavily with tier - that's one thing I didn't sim out - I just kept the same priorities and took the set bonuses off.  That's a whole day's worth of sim factors and one I won't be able to do without alcohol - so interpret results at your own risk.

 

Gahhda, is there some easier way to test stuff like that?  Make 3 sets of gear, run with set bonuses, to see if the stats vary with or without tier?  Is that even worth it? 

 

Hmm? I haven't even considered tier influence on stats because it's irrelevant until at least february. I use my local highmaul profiles for everything. Probably going to push some destruction changes later tonight, and update potion/ds usage for affliction as well. Minor bumps for both specs, but here's the gear sets:

 

http://pastebin.com/9wXidcB9

 

That's my pseudo bis list for heroic highmaul. At this point might be useful for me to get mythic ones, meh.

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I did set bonus weights just for shits and giggles out of curiousity using Mythic gear setups in Simcraft to see weight of the set bonuses including how much they mattered for 2, 3, and 10 targets.  I don't want to add another variable - so much easier to just stick to Mastery priority...

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I did set bonus weights just for shits and giggles out of curiousity using Mythic gear setups in Simcraft to see weight of the set bonuses including how much they mattered for 2, 3, and 10 targets.  I don't want to add another variable - so much easier to just stick to Mastery priority...

You're gonna be playing more Affliction anyways from the sounds of it :P

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I ALWAYS go home to Demonology.  I'm actually thinking of going back to it and dropping Affliction just because I hate Drain Soul, Soul Shards piss me off, and I don't like the damage difference between DoTs and the filler spell.  Just my personal thing.  Not much different than 4 bursty casts of Demonbolt, but whatever.

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A few people made great points about ember generation during FnB and higher crit chance.

 

 

In practice, from what I've seen (@ 655 ilevel) even if I pop dark soul on 5-6 targets I'm having trouble maintaining the aoe spam.  I don't think a few points of crit are going to make a difference if dark soul doesn't seem to help out.

 

There should be a magic number, regardless of ilevel, where once your % of damage is from a certain source, mastery > crit.

 

My theory, whether it's 70% of damage or 80% of damage, coming from CB and shadowburn will value mastery much more than crit.  

 

 

In the current content that I'm seeing, those are reasonable numbers to achieve via cleaving and shadowburn sniping.

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