Vile

BRF and Cataclysm

55 posts in this topic

So BRF has been out for almost a week and we've gotten a feel for most fights by now. As it stands most Warlocks don't swap between specs in here, but rather between Demonbolt and Cataclysm. Assuming this, I'd like to pick your brains on which is better for which fight.

Gruul: Demonbolt (nobrainer)

Oregorger: Demonbolt (nobrainer)

Blast Furnace: Here I'm not sure. You can push some sweet numbers with Cataclysm but you could argue that Demonolting high priority targets might be the way to go. This comes from my 4 hours of HC tries using Cataclysm and feeling I lack single target burst (especially for the 30 second window on Elementalists). Didn't get to try P3 but obviously Demonbolt takes the upper hand there.

Hans & Franz: Demonbolt, likely with a 3 bolt rotation.

Flamebender: Demonbolt (nobrainer)

Kromog: Cataclysm. Be careful though, my burst was strong enough to break us out too fast, effectively killing half the raid to his pummel. Demonbolt if your raid is already very strong on AOE.

Darmac: Demonbolt. Cataclysm if you want to pad the meters with useless damage.

Operator Thogar: Cataclysm. The fight revolves around controlling adds and not dying to trains so this should be a nobrainer.

Iron Maidens: Haven't tried this but most Warlocks seem to be running Cataclysm. Makes sense since there's three targets and you want to keep them relatively even.

Blackhand: Demonbolt (nobrainer)

This sums up my thoughts so far. Do you guys agree? Where would you differ and why? Any Warlock specific tips on a per fight basis?

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The only thing I would add is that when we were doing the iron maidens I was being assigned to go to the ship and since we were kinda low on single target dps to kill the add there before the time ran out I ended up using demonbolt instead of cata.

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Blast Furnace I think Demonbolt is the way forward. You need to burst those Primal Elementalists ASAP so treat the fight like Spine of Deathwing. On our alt run I made a mockery of our 2 mainspec mages when I opted for Arcane when they ran fire. We wiped for like an hour before they too swapped to Arcane and we killed each add inside the first window.

Stuff like this could have been addressed before we even pulled and goes to show how overall damage isn't always king.

Same reason I opted for DB on Darmac and Throgar. I may try Cataclysm on Iron Maidens next time around, did just shy of 50k and I was only in for the kill attempt. I did fail my DB cycles a few times though so really should have done more.

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Yeah that was my thought process while wiping on Furnace too. I guess like you say it can be argued the same goes for Thogar since you have 3 important adds to take down asap while the rest are essentially a none issue with cleaving.

Will probably try both on Maidens when we get there, thanks for the input both of you!

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I don't see a need for Cata on Thogar.  I feel GoServ is enough extra AoE burst for the Train split and worked well.

 

I did run Cata on Blast Furnase.  Our strat for phase 1 had everything stacked and I always has tons of fury and MC stacks to funnel Meta Soulfires into Prio targets.   I was much lower on elementalist dmg than I wouldn't have been with DB, but they were dieing in time.  Mythic will likely need DB burst.

 

I ran Cata on IM, it makes the bomb dance a bit easier and from looking at logs clearly is doing comparable dmg to DB.  After a few more weeks of parses i'll make a choice moving forward on DB vs Cata and which I think is performing best.

 

Kromog I def didn't feel like DB was very effective during the times you need to break out of the hands, but I feel speccing cata for that is overkill.

Edited by Soulzar

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First week in and noticed that Cataclysm I should have used alright on some fights. I tend to stick with single target to ensure that any prio stuff that occurs during the fight I'm doing effective DPS, not much into padding meters.

 

Although looking at the raids two rogues and two boomkins absolutely skyrocket on cleave and add phases, bringing cataclysm into certain fights might make me look a bit more respectable. 

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From my experience of Thogar (limited since we 1-shot on normal and only wiped once on heroic), I believe the fight is made a lot easier by the adds dying asap, so cataclysm isn't just the scumbag choice. Not like it is on Darmac, at least.

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Only fight I run with Cataclysm is Operator Thogar.   Adds are a priority rather than padding and resource generation.

 

Iron Maidens: you're only going to have two targets to hit on every ship phase.  Between that and the obscene fury generation of keeping Doom and Corruption up on the bosses Demonbolt is a no-brainer to me.

 

Kromog:  It's a single target fight, with the exception of the Runes of the Grasping Earth phase.  The reticle for Cataclysm is too small to hit a meaningful amount of grasped people.  Tab-dot,  Chaos Wave as much as you can and move back to the boss.

 

Darmac:  No point to Cataclysm on the packs.  Save your HoG charges for the packs and proceed to Chaos Wave the shit out of them.  They should be gone almost instantly.  If you're tab-dotting the spears you should have a shit-ton of fury to pour into Demonbolt phases.

 

Blast Furnace:  This fight is about bursting down single-targets, not about cheesing adds.   You should be your group's strongest single-target burst class if you're spec'd Demonbolt. You're putting your group at a significant disadvantage by specing Cataclysm here.  

Edited by iriecolorado

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Only fight I run with Cataclysm is Operator Thogar.   Adds are a priority rather than padding and resource generation.

 

Iron Maidens: you're only going to have two targets to hit on every ship phase.  Between that and the obscene fury generation of keeping Doom and Corruption up on the bosses Demonbolt is a no-brainer to me.

 

Kromog:  It's a single target fight, with the exception of the Runes of the Grasping Earth phase.  The reticle for Cataclysm is too small to hit a meaningful amount of grasped people.  Tab-dot,  Chaos Wave as much as you can and move back to the boss.

 

Darmac:  No point to Cataclysm on the packs.  Save your HoG charges for the packs and proceed to Chaos Wave the shit out of them.  They should be gone almost instantly.  If you're tab-dotting the spears you should have a shit-ton of fury to pour into Demonbolt phases.

 

Blast Furnace:  This fight is about bursting down single-targets, not about cheesing adds.   You should be your group's strongest single-target burst class if you're spec'd Demonbolt. You're putting your group at a significant disadvantage by specing Cataclysm here.  

Gonna have to challenge you on a few points here Irie:

 

Iron Maidens: Logs are coming in and it looks like DB vs Cataclysm is neck and neck. Both providing similarly high parses. You still have a good portion of the fight with 3 targets, especially so the final burn sub 20%.

 

Kromog: The hit box of the hands is huge. Like, you can HoG your target and 8 around it will take damage. I think Cata + 3x CW will be insane. Will have to see if the hands die too quickly and cause problems or if they have enough HP on Mythic to allow this sort of burst.

 

Also when you say tab-DoT I'm concerned you're actually using TAB to cycle through targets. Highly advise using your mouse to manually select each target. I reserve TAB for when stuff is out of my field of vision as it's not the most reliable method.

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Looking at furnace:

 

it's all on group comp and group needs.

 

We ran three locks for our heroic kill, Zagam and our 3rd ran DB, and I ran cata. We found it to bring a good enough mix of AoE for extra adds and ST for PEs.

 

I should note that I beat both of them on the p3 boss damage using cata. I don't know if that's because it's a bit hectic in the movement and I was always to be a bit more liberal with fury use or not.

 

I think Cata is a viable option for furnace if your group needs aoe damage to extra adds. We blew through p2 so quickly there was hardly time to put a lot of dps into the adds we were mostly focused on PE damage.

 

 

 

For Kromog:

 

Again, it's all group dependent on what you need. Three demos with cata and CWs ripped apart hands sometimes too fast. I was consistently hitting 5-7 targets with cata 7-8 with CW and 6 with immo aura. We had zero hand problems and I think it helped a ton.

 

Maidens

 

As Liquid mentioned, logs are showing nearly equal output between the two. Personally I preferred cata because I dislike how DB limits your fury usage.

 

Thogar:

 

Cata, no brainer. 

 

Darmac:

 

If you're a scumbag, cata. They die pretty quickly, it seems useless to even use CW on them, although a hog dropped aids in fury greatly

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So we got Furnace down last night on our second try after shifting our group more towards single target. As Reckless says it's all about the balance here, but that's what our group needed.

 

http://www.twitch.tv/vilewasp/c/6085122< Here's the VOD of me playing Demonbolt on our kill.

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I am thinking Maidens is less to do with Cataclysm being an equal talent as it is being bale to allocate fury to Chaos waves instead of having to reserve it all for DB.  Right now they seem on par with each other, but as we gear more haste and get the 4p I feel DB build with 3 targets should easily have fury income for CW and DB cycles, and should pull ahead.

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Also when you say tab-DoT I'm concerned you're actually using TAB to cycle through targets. Highly advise using your mouse to manually select each target. I reserve TAB for when stuff is out of my field of vision as it's not the most reliable method.

 

Can I ask what method you use for your nameplates?

 

Sometimes find it difficult to click on a specific target if there is loads bunched or nameplates overlapping, so normally would tab target myself 

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Can I ask what method you use for your nameplates?

 

Sometimes find it difficult to click on a specific target if there is loads bunched or nameplates overlapping, so normally would tab target myself 

 

Tidyplates is a pretty popular option. You can make boss plates more prominent than trash. 

 

If you run Elvui, the built in name plates are good too.

 

 

I am thinking Maidens is less to do with Cataclysm being an equal talent as it is being bale to allocate fury to Chaos waves instead of having to reserve it all for DB.  Right now they seem on par with each other, but as we gear more haste and get the 4p I feel DB build with 3 targets should easily have fury income for CW and DB cycles, and should pull ahead.

 

I'm not sure, 3 CWs will be nasty with 4pc and cata.

 

Zagam and I stayed nearly even on maidens, despite me going over to the boar with the blood circles.

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Next reset I will be playing Cata on Maidens and will likely run Glyphed DS, and drop 3x CW each minute along with Cata.

 

Got the idea from Karrig who is thinking CW > Cata > CWx2 will be best to hope for a chance of 4pc proc.

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Next reset I will be playing Cata on Maidens and will likely run Glyphed DS, and drop 3x CW each minute along with Cata.

 

Got the idea from Karrig who is thinking CW > Cata > CWx2 will be best to hope for a chance of 4pc proc.

 

Well guess u're one of the few lucky ones who got their 4 set already :P, i've been wondering already where the HOG x 3 (or CW) would come into play

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Tidyplates is a pretty popular option. You can make boss plates more prominent than trash. 

 

If you run Elvui, the built in name plates are good too.

 

 

 

Yeah I'm running Elvui

 

Any recommendations for the plate setup in terms of size? Maybe my elacity thingy is rubbish, as in they are too transparent 

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I'm not sure, 3 CWs will be nasty with 4pc and cata.

 

Zagam and I stayed nearly even on maidens, despite me going over to the boar with the blood circles.

 

Wouldn't it also be nasty with 3 CW + DB?

 

Consider doing a 3 DB rotation and using the 4th's fury on CW's...  could 9 CW hits rival a single 4 stack DB?

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Wouldn't it also be nasty with 3 CW + DB?

 

Consider doing a 3 DB rotation and using the 4th's fury on CW's...  could 9 CW hits rival a single 4 stack DB?

 

I mean yeah, but I'm a huge fan of cata on that fight because I can use fury much more liberally.

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We did Iron Maidens HC yesterday and I tried out Cata instead of DB. I find it way very comfortable to use Cata since you almost always have 2+ targets to hit. It also makes the scenario phases a real breeze because you can spend fury on ToC while dodging the bombs and don't have to worry that you won't have enough fury for your next Demonbolt cycle.

 

I also prefer cata because of the little things. You can do damage during the scenario phase, when you have to move into the red laser beam, when the spawned turrets start spraying fireballs or when the mortar is targeting you.

 

However I think you can also play DB without too much problems. Doom + Corruption 2-3 targets provides more than enough fury for your demonbolts.

Edited by Kerber

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I mean yeah, but I'm a huge fan of cata on that fight because I can use fury much more liberally.

 

Yeah, unless DB pulls away by a margin that can't be ignored, the mobility provided by not playing DB may make our lives much easier come mythic!

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BTW, next week I am running Cata on Thorgar and I dont give a shit what anybody says!  I wanna see some Pad numbers, the boss is not progression anymore :P

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Next reset I will be playing Cata on Maidens and will likely run Glyphed DS, and drop 3x CW each minute along with Cata.

 

Got the idea from Karrig who is thinking CW > Cata > CWx2 will be best to hope for a chance of 4pc proc.

 

That's an interesting idea, and something I'm tempted to try even though I still lack the 4 pc. 

 

Is glyphing DS actually a DPS loss for Cata if you're always using DS + Cata on cooldown and reliably getting cata + 2x CW in each 10-second window? 

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