PoolBoy

Need subtley guidance & DPS help (PvE)

15 posts in this topic

Hey everyone, so I see a lot of these posted on here but they all seem very specific per character and gear set up. I'll just jump right into it.

So I am returning from a year or so off playing wow and decided to use my 100 boost for a Sub rogue. My original plan was to build my rogue for Pvp but changed my mind half way and wanted to swap to a more PvE based build. So a lot of my gear is for Pvp as you can see in my armory (http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/darkspear/P%C3'> and it's been very frustrating trying to make the switch because when trying to go into Normal HFC raids, I get kicked for low DPS or am at the bottom of the DPS boards and it's very discouraging. So I wanted to reach out and seek help from some rogues who have some more experience and skill & maybe get some guidance so I can better my own skill and increase my DPS immensely.

Now for all the numbers and my rotation- so for my opening rotation I go with:

Premed > SnD > Ambush > Shadow Reflection > Rupture > Shadow Dance > Ambush till 5 Cp > Evis and then follow with backstab to gain Cp and keep my SnD and Rupture up with refreshing them within that 7 second time window of them wearing off and fit in a few Eviscerates in there if I'm not rushing to keep up my SnD and Rupture.

- I'm averaging around 18k-20k DPS on the training dummy which is very low I feel especially compared to some of the numbers I see other rogues putting out.

So now I ask for your help in increasing my DPS and helping me with my PVP - PVE shift moving onward. Anything is appreciated and I'll be more Han happy to supply any information that can help you help me.

thanks a ton! (:

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And your armory link is.....?

 

Provide also some logs with WarcraftLogs client. Will help us help you.

 

Oh, and hi.

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Posted (edited)

Will do.

Edited by PoolBoy

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And your armory link is.....?

 

Provide also some logs with WarcraftLogs client. Will help us help you.

 

Oh, and hi.

 

Sorry my link must've been removed, here is my Armory.

 

Also very new to the whole combat logs thing so I just went and tested it out in an LFR and also did some test dummy practice heres the link to my Combat Logs. I can do some more fights if that would help get a better idea as well.

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Okay, so... In a quick glance:

 

Switch your Burst of Speed for Shadowstep. Uses no energy.

 

Change Ambush glyph for Vanish glyph. Works with Subterfuge.

 

Change Cheap Shot glyph for Energy glyph. Mandatory. 20e is nothing to kid at.

 

@Gear:

 

PvP is mainly focused on Mastery/Crit, and PvE Sub works a lot around MS/Mastery and the tier set. The lack of MS troubles you a bit, so you'll struggle till you get at least 2pc. Also Sub PvP bonus do shiznit in PvE, soooo....... You get it. It's okay to start, but try getting some more PvE tier pieces right away. 2pc will make you cry your heart out of happiness.

 

Lack of legendary ring will make a good difference.

 

Class trinket. HUGE boost on DPS.

 

@Rotation: You don't have tier set, so you can't use the same opener as they do. You gotta be a little more conservative about it and play slower. So avoid starting with Ambush, as it'll eat 60% of your bar (currently, since you don't use energy glyph) and you'll stay a bit flailing your hands against the boss.

 

Start with Garrote, will apply both Sanguinary Veins and Find Weakness debuffs on boss in 1 GCD and costs 40e. Then you pool a bit, pop SD+SR, Ambush + Eviscerate fest. Just try to fit in a 5CP Rupture before the first 8 SR seconds (copy period). Pop your Vanish as soon Find Weakness starts to wear out (~2s) and pop Prep in your first free GCD after that. Other than that, do your usual rotation, and start saving energy for when SD/SR+SD or Vanish are about to get off CD (aim for 6s, might be enough time to fill the bar - it may vary, take with a grain of salt).

 

Hope you can get some improvement. =)

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Okay, so... In a quick glance:

 

Switch your Burst of Speed for Shadowstep. Uses no energy.

 

Change Ambush glyph for Vanish glyph. Works with Subterfuge.

 

Change Cheap Shot glyph for Energy glyph. Mandatory. 20e is nothing to kid at.

 

@Gear:

 

PvP is mainly focused on Mastery/Crit, and PvE Sub works a lot around MS/Mastery and the tier set. The lack of MS troubles you a bit, so you'll struggle till you get at least 2pc. Also Sub PvP bonus do shiznit in PvE, soooo....... You get it. It's okay to start, but try getting some more PvE tier pieces right away. 2pc will make you cry your heart out of happiness.

 

Lack of legendary ring will make a good difference.

 

Class trinket. HUGE boost on DPS.

 

@Rotation: You don't have tier set, so you can't use the same opener as they do. You gotta be a little more conservative about it and play slower. So avoid starting with Ambush, as it'll eat 60% of your bar (currently, since you don't use energy glyph) and you'll stay a bit flailing your hands against the boss.

 

Start with Garrote, will apply both Sanguinary Veins and Find Weakness debuffs on boss in 1 GCD and costs 40e. Then you pool a bit, pop SD+SR, Ambush + Eviscerate fest. Just try to fit in a 5CP Rupture before the first 8 SR seconds (copy period). Pop your Vanish as soon Find Weakness starts to wear out (~2s) and pop Prep in your first free GCD after that. Other than that, do your usual rotation, and start saving energy for when SD/SR+SD or Vanish are about to get off CD (aim for 6s, might be enough time to fill the bar - it may vary, take with a grain of salt).

 

Hope you can get some improvement. =)

Thanks, that helps out a ton, I appreciate the wisdom & tips (:

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Posted (edited)

Okay, so... In a quick glance:

 

Switch your Burst of Speed for Shadowstep. Uses no energy.

 

Change Ambush glyph for Vanish glyph. Works with Subterfuge.

 

Change Cheap Shot glyph for Energy glyph. Mandatory. 20e is nothing to kid at.

 

@Gear:

 

PvP is mainly focused on Mastery/Crit, and PvE Sub works a lot around MS/Mastery and the tier set. The lack of MS troubles you a bit, so you'll struggle till you get at least 2pc. Also Sub PvP bonus do shiznit in PvE, soooo....... You get it. It's okay to start, but try getting some more PvE tier pieces right away. 2pc will make you cry your heart out of happiness.

 

Lack of legendary ring will make a good difference.

 

Class trinket. HUGE boost on DPS.

 

@Rotation: You don't have tier set, so you can't use the same opener as they do. You gotta be a little more conservative about it and play slower. So avoid starting with Ambush, as it'll eat 60% of your bar (currently, since you don't use energy glyph) and you'll stay a bit flailing your hands against the boss.

 

Start with Garrote, will apply both Sanguinary Veins and Find Weakness debuffs on boss in 1 GCD and costs 40e. Then you pool a bit, pop SD+SR, Ambush + Eviscerate fest. Just try to fit in a 5CP Rupture before the first 8 SR seconds (copy period). Pop your Vanish as soon Find Weakness starts to wear out (~2s) and pop Prep in your first free GCD after that. Other than that, do your usual rotation, and start saving energy for when SD/SR+SD or Vanish are about to get off CD (aim for 6s, might be enough time to fill the bar - it may vary, take with a grain of salt).

 

Hope you can get some improvement. =)

After I pop Vanish when my Find Weakness is about to wear off with around 2 seconds left, what should my next couple of actions be once Vanished?

 

Also you mentioned saving my energy around 6 seconds before my SD / SR+SD or Vanish are about to be off CD, once I pop those what should my rotation look like?

Edited by PoolBoy

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Your main goals after you Vanish/Dance are the same as normal:

  1. Keep a Bleed (Rupture) up
  2. Keep SnD up
  3. Cast Evis if 5 or more cp
  4. Cast Ambush if not

There's really only a "rotation" for your opener, and that will change and get more complex once you get your set bonuses.

 

Try out what Lip suggested above, and snag some more logs when you get a chance. Once you get those done, post the link back in here and we'll see what you've improved on :)

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Your main goals after you Vanish/Dance are the same as normal:

  1. Keep a Bleed (Rupture) up
  2. Keep SnD up
  3. Cast Evis if 5 or more cp
  4. Cast Ambush if not

There's really only a "rotation" for your opener, and that will change and get more complex once you get your set bonuses.

 

Try out what Lip suggested above, and snag some more logs when you get a chance. Once you get those done, post the link back in here and we'll see what you've improved on smile.png

So I tried working on everything a bit on a training dummy and here's my results

Any tips or pointers or ways to increase my efficiency and damage output?

 

I can definitely see how I'm making more improvement in terms of numbers and I imagine as I get more geared, those will increase substantially.

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Posted (edited)

 

Your main goals after you Vanish/Dance are the same as normal:

  1. Keep a Bleed (Rupture) up
  2. Keep SnD up
  3. Cast Evis if 5 or more cp
  4. Cast Ambush if not

There's really only a "rotation" for your opener, and that will change and get more complex once you get your set bonuses.

 

Try out what Lip suggested above, and snag some more logs when you get a chance. Once you get those done, post the link back in here and we'll see what you've improved on smile.png

So I tried working on everything a bit on a training dummy and here's my results

Any tips or pointers or ways to increase my efficiency and damage output?

 

I can definitely see how I'm making more improvement in terms of numbers and I imagine as I get more geared, those will increase substantially.

 

 

You're not overlapping Rupture, are you? Aim to recast Rupture when it's about 7s to fall off. They baked in Pandemic effect in all DoTs, so you won't lose this damage - avoid refreshing while it's over that.

 

Use more Premeditation. It's on 20s CD, you go in stealth quite often and you get 2~4 CP slots free every now and then after an Eviscerate - there's no excuse to not use it. Just don't use when you have 5CP or went in Anticipation charges already, they don't add Prem CPs into it.

 

Kidney Shot.... PvE buddy. Bosses can't be stunned. Probably a reflex move. =P (you can stun adds, tho - added with Internal Bleeding it's quite a helpful way to burn a mob)

 

Preparation early on - first GCD. Sometimes the fight won't drag long, and the early you use the early you can get it off CD, etc etc... Try to use it on your first FREE GCD.

 

And yeah, just pointing it out: your uptimes are rather really good. But try to not overwrite your casts before 7s.

 

Other than that there isn't really a pattern on how Sub plays. The more you get MS, more your rotation will go downhill - because of the Sinister's Call "twist the blade" mechanic, your Rupture timer will go nuts once you start multistriking. Follow Carrn's priority list and you'll do fine. Once you get 2pc, come back so we'll have another talk.

 

 I also suggest you creating a weakaura to track it. There're two topics with aura strings already done, so you should give a look. =)

 

Keep stabbin'.

 

Edit: get raid logs!!!! on dummies you have no pressure of dying or missing a mechanic (and not having buffs on a minor note), so you can do your rotation just fine - raiding this changes abruptly!!

Edited by lipsinch

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Hi, just want to say I joined Icy Veins just so that I could respond to you lol. I found myself in the exact same situation as you did a little while ago. I used Legion boost on a rogue and then felt overwhelmed with the play style to the point where my DPS was terrible. 

I'm at work so I can't look at your armory....but rotation wise I can give you a tip that helped me immensely. 

 

Step One....download something like ElvUi...Custom UI's help a lot. 

 

Step Two.....Download Weak Auras2....this is a must

 

Step three go here to download this guys weak auras setups. They are amazing. http://santamaria-kazzak.com/rogue-weakauras/

 

They are not fool proof by any means, and they have their issues. They give you an Icon to show you what your next move should be. I used these and my DPS for Combat and Sub went up a lot, and it helped me to not panic in the middle of fights and lose my place in my rotation. 

But the most important part, they taught me how to do a proper rotation. Sometimes it's a little off, like if you have 5 combo points and it's telling you that you need to Eviscerate, when in reality the timer shows 4 seconds left on SnD and you know you should refresh that first.... But the layout helps you learn how to manage everything properly by kind of holding your hand. 

If you follow these weak auras you'll have DPS on Par usually, if you use these weak auras and read up on Icy Veins what a proper rotation should be then these weak aura's will help you recognize when it's time you use things like SnD or Rapture instead of Eviscerate or Whatever. 

 

Highly recommend them for a beginner rogue. 

 

 

 

 

 

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Hi, just want to say I joined Icy Veins just so that I could respond to you lol. I found myself in the exact same situation as you did a little while ago. I used Legion boost on a rogue and then felt overwhelmed with the play style to the point where my DPS was terrible. 

I'm at work so I can't look at your armory....but rotation wise I can give you a tip that helped me immensely. 

 

Step One....download something like ElvUi...Custom UI's help a lot. 

 

Step Two.....Download Weak Auras2....this is a must

 

Step three go here to download this guys weak auras setups. They are amazing. http://santamaria-kazzak.com/rogue-weakauras/

 

They are not fool proof by any means, and they have their issues. They give you an Icon to show you what your next move should be. I used these and my DPS for Combat and Sub went up a lot, and it helped me to not panic in the middle of fights and lose my place in my rotation. 

But the most important part, they taught me how to do a proper rotation. Sometimes it's a little off, like if you have 5 combo points and it's telling you that you need to Eviscerate, when in reality the timer shows 4 seconds left on SnD and you know you should refresh that first.... But the layout helps you learn how to manage everything properly by kind of holding your hand. 

If you follow these weak auras you'll have DPS on Par usually, if you use these weak auras and read up on Icy Veins what a proper rotation should be then these weak aura's will help you recognize when it's time you use things like SnD or Rapture instead of Eviscerate or Whatever. 

 

Highly recommend them for a beginner rogue. 

Appreciate the help, I'll be sure to download those and give em a test and log it for comparison. I'm sure it'll be a huge life saver.

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Okay, so... In a quick glance:

 

Switch your Burst of Speed for Shadowstep. Uses no energy.

 

Change Ambush glyph for Vanish glyph. Works with Subterfuge.

 

Change Cheap Shot glyph for Energy glyph. Mandatory. 20e is nothing to kid at.

 

@Gear:

 

PvP is mainly focused on Mastery/Crit, and PvE Sub works a lot around MS/Mastery and the tier set. The lack of MS troubles you a bit, so you'll struggle till you get at least 2pc. Also Sub PvP bonus do shiznit in PvE, soooo....... You get it. It's okay to start, but try getting some more PvE tier pieces right away. 2pc will make you cry your heart out of happiness.

 

Lack of legendary ring will make a good difference.

 

Class trinket. HUGE boost on DPS.

 

@Rotation: You don't have tier set, so you can't use the same opener as they do. You gotta be a little more conservative about it and play slower. So avoid starting with Ambush, as it'll eat 60% of your bar (currently, since you don't use energy glyph) and you'll stay a bit flailing your hands against the boss.

 

Start with Garrote, will apply both Sanguinary Veins and Find Weakness debuffs on boss in 1 GCD and costs 40e. Then you pool a bit, pop SD+SR, Ambush + Eviscerate fest. Just try to fit in a 5CP Rupture before the first 8 SR seconds (copy period). Pop your Vanish as soon Find Weakness starts to wear out (~2s) and pop Prep in your first free GCD after that. Other than that, do your usual rotation, and start saving energy for when SD/SR+SD or Vanish are about to get off CD (aim for 6s, might be enough time to fill the bar - it may vary, take with a grain of salt).

 

Hope you can get some improvement. =)

I noticed you mentioned for my opening rotation to use Garrote instead of Ambush because of how much energy it dumps. – Does this also apply when I Vanish or use SD mid fight?

..For example when I pop SD for a burst, should I use Garrote to get the bleed and get a CP and get the armor bypass or should I just use ambush? 

I saw Carrn recommended I use ambush to gain cp when in that 'stealthed window' but I wasn't sure if it was worth it to get a Garrote off in there as well or if its better to just use ambush and rack up cps do drop Evis and keep up my SnD & Rupture.

 

I'll do some raids tomorrow and post my updated combat logs, I've had a busy week and haven't had much time to.

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Posted (edited)

You use Garrote only once - in the start of the fight. For the rest of it, you should have Rupture applied, so you don't need to Garrote to apply both debuffs in a quick manner. Just Ambush right away.

 

Either way, you can mid fight apply Hemorrhage (glyphed) for an emergency bleed drop. Damage is negligible, but applies the debuff.

Edited by lipsinch

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Damage is negligible, but applies the debuff.

Sums up Garrote, too :P

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