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Dungeon and raid difficulty in MoP?

46 replies to this topic Started by jonmeyers, May 23 2012 04:59 PM mop
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Posted 23 May 2012 - 04:59 PM

#1
jonmeyers
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Hey guys! I'm so glad you put up the forums, it's been a long time since I was hoping you'd do this. Anyway to the matter at hand, there's something I'm curious about and I'd quite like to know what you lot think of it. What do you think the dungeon and specially the raid difficutly will be like in MoP? In cata it started really brutal (for our guild anyway) but then it got lowered a lot. Then again in wrath it was a lot lower and everyone was complaining. Did you get any experience from the beta (Ive not played it much) or do you have some speculation?

Posted 23 May 2012 - 05:12 PM

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MadMonk
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I haven't played the beta much, don't want to spoil too much and I have to do it all over again when it's live anyway. From what I understand they want to set the raids at about the same difficulty as the starting raids in cataclysm, which in my opinion was quite good. Not too easy but not too hard either once you get some gear. The dungeons (especially the heroic ones) are going to be harder than the WotLK ones, lets be honest those were too easy. But they're not going to be as hard as the cataclysm ones. Doing the cataclysm heroics in greens and blues before they nerfed them could be quite hard, especially if you had a setup with almost no crowd control.
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Posted 23 May 2012 - 05:23 PM

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Peelyon
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I dont think any raid content is available on the beta right now. Pretty sure you can only get to level 89 so they are still doing questing content.

I really enjoyed the start of Cataclysm, I thought the heroics where brilliant and although it was tough to gear up it meant that for a lot of me and my guild it was almost like a mini progression just doing 5mans. Also it meant for a great deal of us we only ran as a guild as we just couldnt complete them with random guys / classes through LFD.

In terms of the raiding content I hope it is similar again. Cataclysm is the first expansion my raiding guild has started out together and it was great having tough progression (for us) in those first few raids. Compare that to Dragon Soul where we cleared 4/8 in our first night of raiding with 80% of the raid group barely preparing for the Morchock.

(DISCLAIMER - Obviously I read all of Icy Veins guides and told the other raiders too as well but you can only lead a horse to water! Posted Image )

Normally for us we took 1-2 weeks to get a new boss down with the earlier Cata raids. It feels like more of a challenge and is so much more satisfying when you get a kill. With Dragon Soul normal being so easy, and LFR an obvious joke we all got bored very quickly!

For me LFR provides an opportunity to have raids at a faceroll status, so everyone can see the content. Normal should be HARD for the average social raider / player and really, heroics should only be doable by the top raiders on each server.

Heres to hoping!

Edit: L2spell <---

Edited by Peelyon, 23 May 2012 - 05:24 PM.

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Posted 23 May 2012 - 05:40 PM

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MadMonk
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For me LFR provides an opportunity to have raids at a faceroll status, so everyone can see the content. Normal should be HARD for the average social raider / player and really, heroics should only be doable by the top raiders on each server.


That is very true. With the addition of LFR, gearing up will be easier. The difficulty of the first tier might be raised just a little bit, but with better gear it should be at about the same level as tier 11 (which once again was quite a good tier).
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Posted 23 May 2012 - 08:15 PM

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Vlad
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I think one of the reasons that T11 is perceived to have been so difficult is because a lot of people rushed to it. I know that my guild went in on the first week with a lot of players still sporting greens and non-heroic blues. In fact, it tooks us weeks (maybe even a month) for some of us to get rid of sub-346 gear. For the other tiers, they came in after farming (include Valor Points) had already been going on, and everyone was more or less "maxed out" (not to mention people who had some heroic gear and were effectively over-powering the content). But yeah, it's quite safe to say that there was a decrease in difficult for T12 and especially T13. Whether this was a good or bad move, it's hard to say and it depends from what perspective you are looking: 1) More people got to experience raid content during T12 and especially T13. You'd think that means more happy customers, but who knows. It certainly seems to be the case, though, since the "bleeding" subscriptions stopped (even if the general community's whining about low difficulty increased). 2) Fewer things to do in game if you are in a reasonably good guild that can clear the content (normal + heroic) relatively quickly. It drains your motivation to keep logging in when there isn't some "next hard boss" to bang your head against. 3) Increased workload from Blizzard. For T11, you had a lot of decent guilds that were still progressing on the final normal mode bosses for a long time (especially Nefarian) and then you had a lot of hardcore-ish guilds that were progressing on Sinestra (technically brand new content) for a long time. With this new model, Blizzard is going to (or certainly should) feel more pressured to release content faster. I don't know where I read this, or maybe I'm imagining it, but I'm fairly sure Blizzard's stated goal is to have Mists of Pandaria dungeons as kind of faceroll. Probably same for the raids and almost surely the same for LFR raids. On the Beta, the only available things are 4 dungeons, and I can say that they are all very easy so far (the maximum level is 89 so I have no idea how it's going to be on heroic). They are rather quick to rush through (15-20 minutes, perhaps) and we haven't encountered anything problematic (aside from a few bugs and a boss that had a 1 shot mechanic that we weren't ready for). So, I think that it's reasonable to accept Wrath of the Lich King difficulty in Mists of Pandaria, from both the raids and the dungeons. We'll try to keep you all updated when there's more to see in the Beta.

Posted 24 May 2012 - 08:37 AM

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Peelyon
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I think it will be a real shame if content is easy. I thought the whole point of introducing LFR was to ensure that the casual player or the social raider wasnt "missing out" on the raiding aspect of the game. Surely this should mean there is an opportunity to really push players on the difficulty of bosses. Lets face it, Blizzard will always struggle to roll out new content much faster. I understand its hard to try and get the difficulty of content right as you never please everyone, lets just hope they get it somewhere inbetween!

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Posted 29 May 2012 - 08:15 PM

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Honestly, the content tuning has been fine for my guild in Cataclysm, tho we only started raiding when 4.2 came out so we don't really know what the first tier was like. For us, we got a lot of good times out of raiding these tiers, going from "WTF this boss is impossible" to progressing slowly and finally getting a rewarding kill. I hope they keep the balance in Mists.

Posted 29 May 2012 - 08:17 PM

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Wow! Thanks for all the great answers. I guess we need to wait and see until all the encounters hit the Beta and we'll see where we stand. I'm glad to hear that the dungeons are pretty easy. I prefer quick and easy heroics and the real challenge and difficulty coming from the raid bosses.

Posted 01 June 2012 - 09:56 PM

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Lolwtfjacob
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One thing is for sure with current MoP dungeons... You can't stay in the same spot for more than 10 or 15 seconds. Every fight right now is actually pretty fun though.

Posted 08 June 2012 - 11:31 PM

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Hope it's gonna bit just a bit easier than Cataclysm was on start, that was just ridiculous, had to prepare for a heroic just as I would for a heroic raid... I want more achievements like Herald of the Titans!

Posted 09 June 2012 - 12:27 AM

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Hope it's gonna bit just a bit easier than Cataclysm was on start, that was just ridiculous, had to prepare for a heroic just as I would for a heroic raid...

I want more achievements like Herald of the Titans!


Having done quite a few heroics on the Beta over the last few days, since they became available, I have to say that they are not as hard as the heroic were at the start of Cataclysm, not by a long shot. Most of us are in a mix of questing and dungeon greens and blues, with the odd heroic item here and there, and everything seems quite well tuned. In fact, I think they're a little bit easier even than the 4.3 heroics, so they could do with a bit of buffing up.

Posted 09 June 2012 - 02:17 AM

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Good to hear. I remember hitting 85 pretty fast, did some normals and barely could do Heroics with a good team... I talked to some players from the top PvE guild who also told me it's really a struggle (I was wondering if I'm bad or something haha)

Posted 19 September 2012 - 05:22 PM

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I'm just reopening this quickly to give my impressions as I've done a lot of dungeon testing in the last few weeks. Basically, I found all the dungeons to be extremely easy, even though the gear was "scaled down", for beta testing purposes, in each dungeon. For example, I don't remember using any crowd control abilities. In one attempt in the Temple of the Jade Serpent, the tank and a DPS left before the first fight and we did half the dungeon, in Heroic mode, with 3 players: a Warlock using his Voidwalker as a tank (he didn't have a Demonology spec), a healer, and me on my Mage.

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Posted 20 September 2012 - 08:59 AM

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Peelyon
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I suppose dungeons are a means to an end in terms of the gearing process. I had very little "fun" as a holy priest very early on in Cata and I got kicked a lot of the time without actually doing anything wrong (but struggling to keep up with mana regen etc). Hopefully being a bit easier will help LFD groups in the first few weeks!

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Posted 20 September 2012 - 11:00 AM

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I suppose dungeons are a means to an end in terms of the gearing process. I had very little "fun" as a holy priest very early on in Cata and I got kicked a lot of the time without actually doing anything wrong (but struggling to keep up with mana regen etc).

Hopefully being a bit easier will help LFD groups in the first few weeks!


I remember the horror which was trying to pug Cataclysm Heroics on release as a healer. It quite literally kept me up at night. I'm genuinely glad it won't be quite that punishing.

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Posted 20 September 2012 - 12:06 PM

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I suppose dungeons are a means to an end in terms of the gearing process. I had very little "fun" as a holy priest very early on in Cata and I got kicked a lot of the time without actually doing anything wrong (but struggling to keep up with mana regen etc).

Hopefully being a bit easier will help LFD groups in the first few weeks!

I remember the horror which was trying to pug Cataclysm Heroics on release as a healer. It quite literally kept me up at night. I'm genuinely glad it won't be quite that punishing.


Maybe I'm a masochist, but I loved doing heroics on release on my Holy Paladin (pugs, just me and my wife and 3 randoms). We wiped so many times, and my mana was so tight. I had to use every trick in the book, and even invent a few tricks of my own, just to get through boss fights like the armorsmith guy in Blackrock Caverns.

It took us 3-4 hours to complete a heroic, but I loved it!

Posted 20 September 2012 - 01:01 PM

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Heroics weren't meant to be an immediate following after hitting maximum level. It used to require rep grinds, normal dungeon gearing, and THEN some extremely good use of skills. Now heroics give a sense of empowerment, and when that happens, players feel they are much better than they are...then wonder why the raids are 'catered to the elite' when in reality, they feel overtuned due to horribly undertuned heroic dungeons. The struggles are what made heroic dungeoners ready for raids.

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Posted 20 September 2012 - 01:36 PM

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I think Blizzard have made it obvious they're targeting the mass market now with all content.

It's why they've 'dumbed' down class mechanics. In the past, good players would research their specs, set-up intuitive UI's, and practice for hours on Dummies perfecting their rotations, all for the reward of doing significantly better in Raids. Obviously it was somewhat disheartening for the raiders that weren't performing well, and Blizzard wants everyone to feel valued, so they evened out the difficulty...

It makes perfect business sense Posted Image

Part of me rages at this, but most of me doesn't really care anymore. I'm conditioned now for the pug-queue mentality of WoW and I'd like it as painless as possible, please.

Personally I like the Hour of Twilight Heroic design. They're designed to be pugged and as such need to cater to people that may not have the first idea how to play their class. And I think the average skill level now is MUCH lower than at the start of Cata. Last few LFR and LFD I've done have been atrocious, if the content was challenging at all it would be soul destroying. I certainly don't want to teach people how to play in a PuG, and 90% of communication now seems to be insults and general unpleasantness, so I'm most happy when they're run silent.

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Posted 20 September 2012 - 01:47 PM

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Maybe I'm a masochist, but I loved doing heroics on release on my Holy Paladin (pugs, just me and my wife and 3 randoms). We wiped so many times, and my mana was so tight. I had to use every trick in the book, and even invent a few tricks of my own, just to get through boss fights like the armorsmith guy in Blackrock Caverns.

It took us 3-4 hours to complete a heroic, but I loved it!


It wasn't the challenge that I hated. I love challenge in that form - it's why I play WoW in the first place - but the pain was in the fact that I, as healer and sole sociable person in any pug, would always be blamed for a wipe. No matter what happened. It was "Wrathbaby" syndrome at its worst, and no matter what I did or how well I played, I was insulted, abused, kicked, taken for granted, harassed.

Challenge? I loved it. I loved the fact that I had to work hard to do well. I loved the fact that the first time I finished Grim Batol Heroic I felt like I'd just got the World First Sinestra kill. Loved it.

It's the people I hated, and the same bloody people who I had no choice but to tolerate. I don't want to be forced to do that again, and I'd rather forfeit the fun of a challenging dungeon for the expedience of getting to a level where I can go do interesting raids with my friends.

Edited by Stoove, 20 September 2012 - 01:48 PM.

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Posted 20 September 2012 - 01:52 PM

#20
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Fighting Beauty in BRC during that first week after Cata dropped was epic fun, I miss that challenge. I definitely understand why Blizzard has simplified content, but in a way I think they are making it more isolated than it has ever been. If you don't have a guild already then there really is no reason to be friendly or go meet people now. In the "old" days, people had to at least be cordial and play the game in a multiplayer way to accomplish tasks. The last several dungeons I have ran, no one spoke even after I tried greeting them, though as far as LFR, I kinda wish no one would ever speak Posted Image
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