Assassination Rogue 6.2

[Guest Artog]

 

Dispatch costs almost twice less Energy than Mutilate, gives less Combo Points, but does slightly more damage.

 

"almost half the Energy" is better

[Guest Guest]

You can now check for specific talent in the condition in a macro. This will remove any errors if you happen to choose another talent. For example, i use this macro for vendetta:

#showtooltip Vendetta
/cast [talent:7/2] Shadow Reflection
/cast Vendetta

[Guest Benby]

I've been doing a large number of my own tests and found that gear that had multistrike gives me a lot more dps than anything else. Noxxic also recommends that multistrike is the best stat. Is there some kind of data that proves that crit or mastery is better? Because so far every rogue (including myself) that I've encountered has prefered stacking multistrike because of the massive dps increase they get

[Damien 1,514]

I've been doing a large number of my own tests and found that gear that had multistrike gives me a lot more dps than anything else. Noxxic also recommends that multistrike is the best stat. Is there some kind of data that proves that crit or mastery is better? Because so far every rogue (including myself) that I've encountered has prefered stacking multistrike because of the massive dps increase they get

 

SimulationCraft still gives Critical Strike and Mastery above Multistrike.

[Guest avt11]

Thank you for this guide this really helped me playing my A game on my rogue but i have a question.

During the opening of a boss encounter i usually use vendetta and shadow reflection when i can cast envenom so it crits harder.

But in your guide you tell to activate vendetta and shadow reflection and use the vendetta crit for multilate or dispatch why is this ? 

[Damien 1,514]

Thank you for this guide this really helped me playing my A game on my rogue but i have a question.

During the opening of a boss encounter i usually use vendetta and shadow reflection when i can cast envenom so it crits harder.

But in your guide you tell to activate vendetta and shadow reflection and use the vendetta crit for multilate or dispatch why is this ?

Glad I could help! Regarding your question, I'm afraid I don't understand what you are trying to say.

[Guest Jiman]

Glad I could help! Regarding your question, I'm afraid I don't understand what you are trying to say.

 

He was trying to ask you: 

Since 5cp Envenom does more overall damage than a Mutilate, why are you telling people they should use the 100% crit from Vendetta on a Mutilate over Envenom? I 100% agree with the poster. Personally, when I'm getting ready to Vendetta, I'm sitting at 5cp pooling energy. Once I'm around 75% energy I pop Shadow Reflection/Vendetta/DPS CDs macro, Envenom, Mut/Dispatch til 5cp then Rupture (your reflection will throw up an independent Rupture).

Also, what is the justification of using Mutilate in stealth rather than ambush? My Ambush strikes reliably 30% over my Mutilate and costs just 5 energy (or 1 energy w/ Shadow Focus) more - same CP generation.

One important aspect of envenom (and more justification to pool energy @ 5cp) is the Empowered Envenom passive. While the Envenom buff is up, your Mutilate and Dispatch do +30% damage. In bottomed-out energy situations, it makes more sense to pool energy at 5CP until you know you have enough to get 5CP worth of mutilate/dispatch within the 6 seconds of uptime - even if it means letting that +30% to poison drop off for a second.

[Guest whoelsewould]

Why are should we use Mutilate instead of Ambush?

[Guest Niridianlol]

May I ask why the enchant is 500 crit instead of the 500 mastery?

[Guest Sneaky Rogue]

What about the Poison damage increase you receive from Tempest? As it also puts up a bleed DoT and a % increase boost in damage for Envenom. There are a few things here I don't agree with but have tried. Mastery is still good, Multistrike is just as good if not better it would appear for most situations as it will give a double critical attack from a move "IF" it procs. Double Envenom, Mutilate, or Dispatch crits are wonderful. Adding in Tempest though you will get a small dps increase if you are trying to squeeze every little bit out. And does opening with Multilate really work that much better than Garrote? 3 bleeds almost right off the bat if done right takes down most things a good bit of health. I'm no expert, but I feel like there are some things that are tweaked with WoD that don't apply as well like they did in Panda land or any other expansion. Just stats from actual game play and things I noticed that are not theory or simulation.

[Guest Casal]

Just wondering about the recommended enchants. You pick mastery over crit on every armor piece so why not Enchant Weapon - Mark of Bleeding Hollow instead of Enchant Weapon - Mark of the Thunderlord?

[Guest Fadetonight]

Ok. Question here. The opening sequence lists using Rupture before the Vendetta + Shadow Reflection. Why would you not want the Rupture used after the macro'ed spells? Wouldn't your rupture damage be higher from vendetta and the extra rupture from your shadow do more damage?

[Damien 1,514]

He was trying to ask you: 

Since 5cp Envenom does more overall damage than a Mutilate, why are you telling people they should use the 100% crit from Vendetta on a Mutilate over Envenom? I 100% agree with the poster. Personally, when I'm getting ready to Vendetta, I'm sitting at 5cp pooling energy. Once I'm around 75% energy I pop Shadow Reflection/Vendetta/DPS CDs macro, Envenom, Mut/Dispatch til 5cp then Rupture (your reflection will throw up an independent Rupture).

Also, what is the justification of using Mutilate in stealth rather than ambush? My Ambush strikes reliably 30% over my Mutilate and costs just 5 energy (or 1 energy w/ Shadow Focus) more - same CP generation.

One important aspect of envenom (and more justification to pool energy @ 5cp) is the Empowered Envenom passive. While the Envenom buff is up, your Mutilate and Dispatch do +30% damage. In bottomed-out energy situations, it makes more sense to pool energy at 5CP until you know you have enough to get 5CP worth of mutilate/dispatch within the 6 seconds of uptime - even if it means letting that +30% to poison drop off for a second.

I don't think the guide is telling people to specifically consume the crit buff from Vendetta on Envenom. During the opening sequence, you need your trinket procs to be up when you cast Vendetta, so you don't want to wait for a 5-CP Envenom, which is why the current opening sequence on the website is going to lead you to follow up Vendetta with Mutilate (but it's just a consequence of "cast Vendetta as soon as possible"). Now, getting 100% crit on Mutilate is not as bad as you may think. It grants you an extra Combo Point through Seal Fate, and there is debate on the Rogue community regarding whether getting this extra Combo Point is better or not than the extra damage you get from Envenom. The currently best SimulationCraft profile just casts SR+Vendetta whenever it is available, without giving any consideration to anything else happening. FieryDemise just ran some simulations and it makes no DPS difference to prioritise consuming the crit buff with Envenom, Dispatch, or Mutilate.

The reason why Mutilate is preferred over Ambush in Stealth is because of the Blindside proc. Using Ambush in Stealth is like a 1% DPS loss.

 

Why are should we use Mutilate instead of Ambush?

 

See above.

 

May I ask why the enchant is 500 crit instead of the 500 mastery?

 

That was a mistake (albeit not a very serious one, given how close Mastery and Critical Strike are), but I will fix it soon. Thank you for pointing it out!

 

What about the Poison damage increase you receive from Tempest? As it also puts up a bleed DoT and a % increase boost in damage for Envenom. There are a few things here I don't agree with but have tried. Mastery is still good, Multistrike is just as good if not better it would appear for most situations as it will give a double critical attack from a move "IF" it procs. Double Envenom, Mutilate, or Dispatch crits are wonderful. Adding in Tempest though you will get a small dps increase if you are trying to squeeze every little bit out. And does opening with Multilate really work that much better than Garrote? 3 bleeds almost right off the bat if done right takes down most things a good bit of health. I'm no expert, but I feel like there are some things that are tweaked with WoD that don't apply as well like they did in Panda land or any other expansion. Just stats from actual game play and things I noticed that are not theory or simulation.

The problem with your report is that I need factual data before I can start making any change to the guide (keep in mind that it has been reviewed by some of the best Assassination Rogues).

 

 

Just wondering about the recommended enchants. You pick mastery over crit on every armor piece so why not Enchant Weapon - Mark of Bleeding Hollow instead of Enchant Weapon - Mark of the Thunderlord?

 

As pointed out above, this was a mistake and is going to get fixed

 

Ok. Question here. The opening sequence lists using Rupture before the Vendetta + Shadow Reflection. Why would you not want the Rupture used after the macro'ed spells? Wouldn't your rupture damage be higher from vendetta and the extra rupture from your shadow do more damage?

You don't cast Rupture for its DoT, but for its interaction with your Poisons. The Shadow Reflection does not apply poisons, so it is better off casting your other abilities.

[gonlaz 6]

Doesn't shattered hand still sim out ahead of thunderlord or bleeding hollow? Shadowcraft certainly says it does.

Also Shadowcraft is driving me insane, I switched all to multi strike on it's suggestion (because math doesn't lie?) and didn't do anything but log out. Logged in, refreshed the armory and bam, suggests me to go back to mastery...

I think I've about had it with simcraft, shadowcraft, etc. Here's how it worked for so far in WOD in my experience with numbers performance.

with 630 daggers, shattered hand won.
with 630 gear (and only a couple of 640 lfr pieces) multistrike topped mastery - I mean enchants, gems of course)

With 640 daggers, shattered hand still topped thunderlord or bleeding hollow (I saw a significant decrease with each)

In all 640 gear Multistrike still won the day with shattered hand on daggers.

In current gear (which is a mix of 655, one or two 670s and a 640 and 655 dagger, the jury is out on everything seems to be slipping - REGARDLESS of what shadowcraft's bipolar calculating is suggesting, until that shit gets straight I am not using it.
And Pawn blows goats.

I don't mean to sound rude, I'm a bit frustrated.

Edited January 6, 2015 by gonlaz

[gonlaz 6]

And just now btw,

 

shadowcraft says go mix of multistrike and mastery, it has not once suggested crit.

 

Mr. Robot suggests crit.

 

It can't be this silly in real life, can it? I mean, everyone's just throwing out opinions at this point. I really feel that it's about whatever you like and feel best with.

Edited January 6, 2015 by gonlaz

[Guest Cole]

Hi there,

Potions now dont break invisibility, so the part about opening rotation can be tweaked.

 

 

[Damien 1,514]

And just now btw,

 

shadowcraft says go mix of multistrike and mastery, it has not once suggested crit.

 

Mr. Robot suggests crit.

 

It can't be this silly in real life, can it? I mean, everyone's just throwing out opinions at this point. I really feel that it's about whatever you like and feel best with.

I can understand your frustration. Stats are a very complex matter and it's very hard for me to have to select a particular stat priority and go with it in the guide. There are always edge cases where you'll need a specific stat priority that is different than what sites will advise. You just need to bear in mind that it matters very little in the end, compared to using the right spells at the right time. So, it can indeed come down to whatever you like and feel best with.

[Damien 1,514]

Hi there,

Potions now dont break invisibility, so the part about opening rotation can be tweaked.

Thanks, I reversed things

[Guest relly]

It keeps telling me to open up with mutilate but I know that is supposed to be ambush lol xD

[Guest rocketman]

It keeps telling me to open up with mutilate but I know that is supposed to be ambush lol xD

 

bro...u muti bc u can proc a free dispatch.

[Guest Guest]

bro...u muti bc u can proc a free dispatch.

xD welp I've been doing that super wrong then! Guess that is why I am here too tho lol thanks

[Guest Xolotl]

noob rogue question...in the opening section (and in the rotation section) there is no mention of Slice and Dice. Is this not used by Assasination ?

 

sorry if its been asked before but i could not find a way to search this thread

 

Cheers

 

Xolotl

[Guest Gamedad]

I did some testing on the ambush vs. mutilate and at my noob 100 ilvl of 598 the results were that ambush was way out in front on damage.  This is based on 15 hits using mutilate (adding blindside damage) and 15 hits of ambush on the target dummy. There were 2 proc's of blindside out of those 15 hits.  The average damage (including blindside) for mutilate was 3960 and ambush was 7063.   (Crits and Multistrikes were included in the damage totals for both.)

 

At what ilvl (or appropriate stat) does your data show mutilate with blindside proc's overtaking ambush?  

 

What stat, if any, can increase the blindside proc? 

 

thanks

[Guest Chemii]

I did some testing on the ambush vs. mutilate and at my noob 100 ilvl of 598 the results were that ambush was way out in front on damage.  This is based on 15 hits using mutilate (adding blindside damage) and 15 hits of ambush on the target dummy. There were 2 proc's of blindside out of those 15 hits.  The average damage (including blindside) for mutilate was 3960 and ambush was 7063.   (Crits and Multistrikes were included in the damage totals for both.)

 

At what ilvl (or appropriate stat) does your data show mutilate with blindside proc's overtaking ambush?  

 

What stat, if any, can increase the blindside proc? 

 

thanks

Mutilate can crit and proc poisons from both weapons as well as proc blindside, which gives dispatch for free. The whole idea behind Assassination is energy management and Envenom uptime. While opening with Ambush may be a good idea, as you are at full energy, during Vanish you should always use Mutilate.

The two set bonus of this tier also adds to the calculations because it can return energy. Maths aside it would need to be a lot of damage from Ambush to compensate for those energy gains.

[Guest Petrie]

So I am coming back after a long break since Data, but am I missing S&D in the opening rotation? Is it no longer a necessary buff? If so, why?