shingeki

Bloodtalons or Lunar inspiration?

24 posts in this topic

Hello everyone,

 

IM not sure if somebody already asked this question but I couldn't find it anywhere so here I go.

 

I want your opinions about those two talents. If been using moonfire from the beginning but I see alot of top druid players (PvE) using bloodtalons. And I see that their nr.1 damage output is their Shred. So I understand u have more energy to spend because u dont use moonfire (wich costs 30 energy) so there it will be easier to keep rake and rip up and to Ferocious Bite more often.

 

But here is the thing, when do I actually cast Healing Touch, like I leave cat form and cast it wich costs around 3-4 seconds? Do I just cast it at 4 energy for my next rake and rip or do I just cast it withing phases of the boss (like the butcher when he jumps)

 

My ilvl is 641 and with moonfire I get around 15-16k DPS. Should I do more?

 

And is there some kind of macro to make it easier to leave cat form and cast healing touch and re-enter cat form?

 

A lot of questions but I really want to know everything to master my class.

 

Thanks in advance!

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Lets go through your list here.

 

Bloodtalons is better. Flat out. Almost always, Bloodtalons, used correctly, is the superior talent. Make sure you are using Incarnation in conjunction with it. 

 

Never break cat form to cast healing touch. It is not a dps upgrade. Pool energy before a combo move and SAVE predatory swiftness for when you reach 4 combo points, so you can buff the upcoming combo move. If you can't hit the boss at the time, and have nowhere to run, I suppose you can healing touch with breaking cat form, but those moments are rare.

 

You probably should be doing more dps, but everyone has work to do on their dps. Change some stuff up and keep practicing.

 

http://www.icy-veins.com/forums/topic/8447-feral-dream-of-cenarius-macro/is a thread about healing touch macros.

 

Feel free to whisper me, Bradykin on US Mal'ganis Horde, if you have more questions, or want a log analysis or something.

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Every feral druid has a passive ability that gives you a chance to proc ability_hunter_pet_cat.jpgPredatory Swiftness.  From the tooltip, you can see that you will always get this proc if you use a finisher at 5 combo points.  

 

Make sure you are casting Healing Touch while this buff is active to prevent you from shifting forms.  As Bradykin said, you will want to pool your energy before a finisher.  This will make sure that you have enough combo points before PS runs out so that one of your two bloodtalons buffs will be used on your next finisher.

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Oh wow I should read my passive's more... Didint know I was able to cast while PS was up. This won't make me leave catform. Thanks guys im gonna work with this and hope ill do more deeps!

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Lets go through your list here.

 

Bloodtalons is better. Flat out. Almost always, Bloodtalons, used correctly, is the superior talent. Make sure you are using Incarnation in conjunction with it. 

 

What is this based on? I have simmed my feral probably 30 times this xpac using simulationcraft.  Each and everytime lunar inspiration beats it handily (on my last sim by 850).  I am using incarnation as my other talent, single target patchwerk fight with 90% player skill.  My feral is 653 ilevel and the name is Drakkmur on US-Area 52.

 

If you consider real world encounters (multiple mobs, target switch where moonfire can be used at range, human error, etc) lunar inspiration should pull even farther ahead.

 

So is simulationcraft wrong or is something else going on here?

Edited by Drakkmur

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What is this based on? I have simmed my feral probably 30 times this xpac using simulationcraft.  Each and everytime lunar inspiration beats it handily (on my last sim by 850).  I am using incarnation as my other talent, single target patchwerk fight with 90% player skill.  My feral is 653 ilevel and the name is Drakkmur on Area 52.

 

If you consider real world encounters (multiple mobs, target switch where moonfire can be used at range, human error, etc) lunar inspiration should pull even farther ahead.

 

So is simulationcraft wrong or is something else going on here?

Every other simcraft test on a feral I have ever written, seen, or heard about has had the opposite result. My guess is that something is very, very outdated  with your simcraft setup on how it tests your dps. Simcraft isn't perfect, but when every other serious feral has gotten the opposite result (and if you look around top logs, are all using bloodtalons) yours is doing something funky

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I update my simulationcraft on a regular basis, at least once weekly.  Have you tested your own feral with lunar inspiration to confirm?  I just wonder if everyone has read the same guide and no one has actually tested lunar inspiration or tried it out in a raid.

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I update my simulationcraft on a regular basis, at least once weekly.  Have you tested your own feral with lunar inspiration to confirm?  I just wonder if everyone has read the same guide and no one has actually tested lunar inspiration or tried it out in a raid.

 

I have done dozens of tests in various gear setups and enemy setups. Even with my absurd accidental amount of haste, Moonfire talent has been weaker for me on every, single, scenario I have simmed, including multitarget.

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I think I discovered what is going on.  I have my player skill set as "Good" instead of "Elite".  When I set my player skill to Elite it then changes Bloodtalons to being 700 dps higher.

 

But this opens another discussion.  Bloodtalons is an unforgiving talent.  As the sim shows, going from a player skill of 100% (Elite) to 90% (Good) causes a 1,500 dps swing vs Lunar Inspiration.  In fact, my dps goes from 20,855 with 90% player skill to 25,594 with 100% player skill while using BloodTalons.  This is a 4,739 dps increase (22.7%) simply from increasing player skill.

 

This Sim is in a controlled environment using perfect conditions and executing the rotation without flaws.  In a progression environment, there are no players in the world that make no mistakes with their rotations.  Throw in movement, multidotting, and periods of only ranged attacks and I wonder if most ferals would perform better with Lunar Inspiration.

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I think I discovered what is going on.  I have my player skill set as "Good" instead of "Elite".  When I set my player skill to Elite it then changes Bloodtalons to being 700 dps higher.

 

But this opens another discussion.  Bloodtalons is an unforgiving talent.  As the sim shows, going from a player skill of 100% (Elite) to 90% (Good) causes a 1,500 dps swing vs Lunar Inspiration.  In fact, my dps goes from 20,855 with 90% player skill to 25,594 with 100% player skill while using BloodTalons.  This is a 4,739 dps increase (22.7%) simply from increasing player skill.

 

This Sim is in a controlled environment using perfect conditions and executing the rotation without flaws.  In a progression environment, there are no players in the world that make no mistakes with their rotations.  Throw in movement, multidotting, and periods of only ranged attacks and I wonder if most ferals would perform better with Lunar Inspiration.

 

It's possible that unskilled ferals would do more damage as feral, but that begs the question: Shouldn't they try to learn how to use the right talent optimally, rather then abide with the easy one?

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This Sim is in a controlled environment using perfect conditions and executing the rotation without flaws.  In a progression environment, there are no players in the world that make no mistakes with their rotations.  Throw in movement, multidotting, and periods of only ranged attacks and I wonder if most ferals would perform better with Lunar Inspiration.

This is one of the biggest misconceptions out there.  Simulations are NOT perfect.  They are user written and are subject to the same RNG that every player is in-game.  This is why many people hit and beat their simulation numbers.

 

SimCraft has the ability to alter the sim to include light movement, add phases, or even council style fights.

 

 

 

OT:

LI is a little more forgiving then BT because the generation of combo points is more forgiving.  However, it is much more difficult to track 3 individually applied damaging dots on multiple targets.

You should play what you are comfortable with, but BT is the top damaging talent right now.

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It's possible that unskilled ferals would do more damage as feral, but that begs the question: Shouldn't they try to learn how to use the right talent optimally, rather then abide with the easy one?

 

Of course. But I'm going to play devil's advocate for a bit. Not everyone is supremely skilled, and the gap between a 95% and a 100% player of Bloodtalons is one of the largest of any class. Most people are just not that exceptional. If you're going to accept that you're just an "OK player" but still want to be valuable, you can reroll Hunter, or you can stick with Feral and just don't use Bloodtalons. Understand, though, that I'm not a "DPS at the expense of all else" kind of player; otherwise I would be playing a Fire Mage or whatever was the flavor of the month. I do what is best for the entire raid, and always select my talents, glyphs, etc. based on making myself valuable. Blizzard supports this kind of play quite well - that's why we have Ysera's Gift, Glyph of Cat Form, Glyph of Stampede, Dream of Cenarius/HotW etc; that kind of flexibility is central to playing a Druid. Claws of Shirvallah is another step further for the concept of the useful Feral. Bloodtalons is the talent for the highest DPS, but you won't be able to root or Cyclone adds, use Soothe or Remove Corruption, or battle-res on demand without shifting. It turns you into something like a Ret Paladin, but even better in some ways. And the amount of damage you give up, while measurable, is not going to make or break anything.

 

For a player like me, CoS is the best thing that has happened to Feral in a long time. And I think it's a real problem that most Ferals, who believe they need to take the talent that maximizes their numbers, will take the most complex talent, because it has the best maximum potential - but they will struggle for the entire expansion with it and probably never do as well as they would have if they chose one of the less complex talents, and they will miss out on opportunities to take on important tasks that make the whole raid easier to finish, and not just another dude that makes bars go left.

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Of course. But I'm going to play devil's advocate for a bit. Not everyone is supremely skilled, and the gap between a 95% and a 100% player of Bloodtalons is one of the largest of any class. Most people are just not that exceptional. If you're going to accept that you're just an "OK player" but still want to be valuable, you can reroll Hunter, or you can stick with Feral and just don't use Bloodtalons. Understand, though, that I'm not a "DPS at the expense of all else" kind of player; otherwise I would be playing a Fire Mage or whatever was the flavor of the month. I do what is best for the entire raid, and always select my talents, glyphs, etc. based on making myself valuable. Blizzard supports this kind of play quite well - that's why we have Ysera's Gift, Glyph of Cat Form, Glyph of Stampede, Dream of Cenarius/HotW etc; that kind of flexibility is central to playing a Druid. Claws of Shirvallah is another step further for the concept of the useful Feral. Bloodtalons is the talent for the highest DPS, but you won't be able to root or Cyclone adds, use Soothe or Remove Corruption, or battle-res on demand without shifting. It turns you into something like a Ret Paladin, but even better in some ways. And the amount of damage you give up, while measurable, is not going to make or break anything.

 

For a player like me, CoS is the best thing that has happened to Feral in a long time. And I think it's a real problem that most Ferals, who believe they need to take the talent that maximizes their numbers, will take the most complex talent, because it has the best maximum potential - but they will struggle for the entire expansion with it and probably never do as well as they would have if they chose one of the less complex talents, and they will miss out on opportunities to take on important tasks that make the whole raid easier to finish, and not just another dude that makes bars go left.

 

If you are needed in PvE to use CoS in a raid, that is something fundamentally wrong with your group, and CoS is a major, major dps downgrade from BT and even LI. In my gear I would lose about 4k dps, which can certainly make or break an encounter.

 

Bloodtalons honestly isn't that complicated, it's basically "pool energy before a finishing move, so you can get enough combo points to use healing touch after getting 4". I, personally, consider taking the wrong talent because it's easier to use a mistake, shouldn't people learn how to use the right one instead? 

Edited by Bradykin

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If you are needed in PvE to use CoS in a raid, that is something fundamentally wrong with your group, and CoS is a major, major dps downgrade from BT and even LI. In my gear I would lose about 4k dps, which can certainly make or break an encounter.

 

Bloodtalons honestly isn't that complicated, it's basically "pool energy before a finishing move, so you can get enough combo points to use healing touch after getting 4". I, personally, consider taking the wrong talent because it's easier to use a mistake, shouldn't people learn how to use the right one instead? 

 

I disagree with your comment pertaining to your group being flawed.  If by you taking CoS as a talent, you increase your healing output and could potentially not take another healer in your group.  Doing this will lower your damage output, but maximize the raid output.

 

Sometimes, the way to kill a boss isn't by throwing more damage at it, but rather control the mechanics given to you.  Again, CoS could potentially be a viable option.  Now, I will say that I have yet to use CoS (ever) and don't necessarily plan on doing it, but I will always know that the option is there if it will help me and my raid kill a boss.

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I disagree with your comment pertaining to your group being flawed.  If by you taking CoS as a talent, you increase your healing output and could potentially not take another healer in your group.  Doing this will lower your damage output, but maximize the raid output.

 

Sometimes, the way to kill a boss isn't by throwing more damage at it, but rather control the mechanics given to you.  Again, CoS could potentially be a viable option.  Now, I will say that I have yet to use CoS (ever) and don't necessarily plan on doing it, but I will always know that the option is there if it will help me and my raid kill a boss.

 

Imo ferals have better ways to improve their healing if needed for a specific part of the fight in using Heart of the Wild. Using CoS doesn't boost your healing (beyond the vers, which is really small) unless you are actually casting healing touch in it, which would be a major dps downgrade and I cannot imagine a scenario where this tradeoff is the correct choice. If it's downtime in the fight you can just break cat and cast anyways, if not, these kinds of scenarios in a raid should be handled by raid cooldowns and personals rather then gimping the damage needed in a fight, or the damage is irrelevant at that time and you can again just break cat form to cast anyways.

 

Going to have to agree to disagree on this one.

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Imo ferals have better ways to improve their healing if needed for a specific part of the fight in using Heart of the Wild. Using CoS doesn't boost your healing (beyond the vers, which is really small) unless you are actually casting healing touch in it, which would be a major dps downgrade and I cannot imagine a scenario where this tradeoff is the correct choice. If it's downtime in the fight you can just break cat and cast anyways, if not, these kinds of scenarios in a raid should be handled by raid cooldowns and personals rather then gimping the damage needed in a fight, or the damage is irrelevant at that time and you can again just break cat form to cast anyways.

 

Going to have to agree to disagree on this one.

 

I wasn't really thinking of CoS being related to improved raid healing. The T6 talents are the ones that have the biggest effect, and depending on the fight, you might want the big HotW cooldown, the smaller NV cooldown, or the spot mouseover healing with DoC, which takes advantage of the inherent downtime in your rotation.

 

All three of those work as well with any of the T7 talents. The main benefit to CoS is being able to cast dispels, Soothe enrages, and CC adds without having to shift out of cat form. It's much more useful in PvP for sure, but Enrage effects are quite common in WoD instances as well, so being able to dispel them can be quite valuable. If I was doing Challenge Mode UBRS, for example, I would pick Claws of Shirvallah without thinking twice. Against the Butcher, I would use Bloodtalons, same as I used the old 5.2 DoC for single-target fights in Pandaria.

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I think I discovered what is going on.  I have my player skill set as "Good" instead of "Elite".  When I set my player skill to Elite it then changes Bloodtalons to being 700 dps higher.

 

But this opens another discussion.  Bloodtalons is an unforgiving talent.  As the sim shows, going from a player skill of 100% (Elite) to 90% (Good) causes a 1,500 dps swing vs Lunar Inspiration.  In fact, my dps goes from 20,855 with 90% player skill to 25,594 with 100% player skill while using BloodTalons.  This is a 4,739 dps increase (22.7%) simply from increasing player skill.

 

This Sim is in a controlled environment using perfect conditions and executing the rotation without flaws.  In a progression environment, there are no players in the world that make no mistakes with their rotations.  Throw in movement, multidotting, and periods of only ranged attacks and I wonder if most ferals would perform better with Lunar Inspiration.

 

I've been questioning this as well. There are two factors involved:

 

1. A simulation is only as good as its design. While an optimal rotation on a stationary target can believably be simulated with a reasonable degree of accuracy, it falls on the designer to accomplish that task without failing to include any key factors that might dramatically alter the outcome.

 

2. There is no such thing as an optimal situation in a raid environment, outside of a few fights that are close to it. This is not a matter of player skill, divided between those who have it and those who don't. It's a question of whether the simulation can reliably account for all of the variables involved in a complex and fluid raid environment. On most fights, you will lose uptime on the boss, and/or you will have to switch targets. At that point, the simulation goes to hell. Because every fight is different.

 

What I've found with Bloodtalons is that it's very difficult, perhaps all but impossible to achieve the stated optimal rotation consistently, because of all of the factors that interact. In particular, the Predatory Swiftness buff that allows you to cast HT does not last long enough for you to always save it to be used when you want it. Because it procs off of a 5 CP finisher (i.e. Rip), if you want to use BT on Rip, you have to get back around to 4-5 CP before you cast HT. Too often, that's not possible because of low Energy, and you end up having to consume it on Shred, or lose it. And then your Rip does not benefit from BT. You're relying heavily on OoC procs to keep everything going, and if they don't happen, you can end up in an even worse place than if you used BT sub-optimally. The only way to predictably improve this would be with Haste, but that's been declared the worst stat at present.

 

I've started running my own tests on target dummies, and I will run more, but early on I'm seeing little difference between BT and LI. I'm also seeing that the strength of BT relies heavily on its synergy with Incarnation. When paired with any other level 60 talent, it appears to be in last place - which would mean that when Incarnation is on CD, BT is the worst level 100 talent. It's obvious that Feral is very CD reliant, with high burst followed by long periods of mediocre damage. BT only being good under Incarnation would increase that dynamic rather than mitigating it.

 

On a fight like Imperator, you're constantly being knocked back, having to run away from some mechanic, or switching targets. It certainly appears to the naked eye that LI would be a better choice for that fight in particular. It's hard to get good data on that kind of question, because if all of the best Ferals are following the herd based on sims, it skews the data. Only if there are enough logs of "Elite" ferals using various talents on various real fights, can you start to draw some real conclusions.

Edited by JoeDruid

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On a fight like Imperator, you're constantly being knocked back, having to run away from some mechanic, or switching targets. It certainly appears to the naked eye that LI would be a better choice for that fight in particular. It's hard to get good data on that kind of question, because if all of the best Ferals are following the herd based on sims, it skews the data. Only if there are enough logs of "Elite" ferals using various talents on various real fights, can you start to draw some real conclusions.

 

I will vouch for BT working fine on every boss in Highmaul, and there being no problems with reaching the 4 CP before casting Healing Touch as long as you are pooling energy correctly. More often then not when i'm working with a feral who is struggling with BT, the problem is energy pooling and/or really low levels of crit on their gear. By the time you are doing normal raids, you should have the gear to be able to use BT effectively even on fight mechanic-heavy bosses.

Edited by Bradykin

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I will vouch for BT working fine on every boss in Highmaul, and there being no problems with reaching the 4 CP before casting Healing Touch as long as you are pooling energy correctly. More often then not when i'm working with a feral who is struggling with BT, the problem is energy pooling and/or really low levels of crit on their gear. By the time you are doing normal raids, you should have the gear to be able to use BT effectively even on fight mechanic-heavy bosses.

 

The question isn't whether it can be used effectively, so much as whether it's better than LI (or CoS for that matter, although there are clear indications it is). My personal tests are only preliminary at this point, but whereas Incarnation appears to be clearly ahead of other level 60 talents, BT and LI appear to be very close. Enough that I would think the fight mechanics would tip the scales one way or the other. For example: BT on The Butcher, LI on Mar'gok. Possibly.

 

Update Edit:

 

I just did a test where I paid close attention to having every Rake and Rip use Bloodtalons. The result was a 3% (of total) increase in Rake damage, and a 3.5% increase in Rip damage vs Incarnation + LI. However, LI contributed 10% of damage on its own. It's possible that being more meticulous about also getting Rake and Rip up under Tiger's Fury would have brought them higher, but I think the effect of BT on Ferocious Bite is actually the deciding factor. My average FB crit with BT was 25% higher than without it, and you can assume that I had a few without it, since it should be 30%.

 

So clearly the big deal is not so much uptime on buffed bleeds, which are a baseline requirement, but rather how often you can fit in a BT-buffed FB. With LI, I was able to FB twice as often, but I'll allow that some of that was a result of being overly cautious on BT. FB under BT during Berserk seems to be the paydirt of BT DPS, whereas LI gives a more constant damage increase.

Edited by JoeDruid

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The question isn't whether it can be used effectively, so much as whether it's better than LI (or CoS for that matter, although there are clear indications it is). My personal tests are only preliminary at this point, but whereas Incarnation appears to be clearly ahead of other level 60 talents, BT and LI appear to be very close. Enough that I would think the fight mechanics would tip the scales one way or the other. For example: BT on The Butcher, LI on Mar'gok. Possibly.

 

Update Edit:

 

I just did a test where I paid close attention to having every Rake and Rip use Bloodtalons. The result was a 3% increase in Rake damage, and a 3.5% increase in Rip damage vs Incarnation + LI. However, LI contributed 10% of damage on its own. It's possible that being more meticulous about also getting Rake and Rip up under Tiger's Fury would have brought them higher, but I think the effect of BT on Ferocious Bite is actually the deciding factor. My average FB crit with BT was 25% higher than without it, and you can assume that I had a few without it, since it should be 30%.

 

So clearly the big deal is not so much uptime on buffed bleeds, which are a baseline requirement, but rather how often you can fit in a BT-buffed FB. With LI, I was able to FB twice as often, but I'll allow that some of that was a result of being overly cautious on BT. 

 

Let me rephrase what I said. Sims have shown us that if you can reliably use the BT buff on the correct spells, it far surpasses LI. With correct play on these bosses, you should NOT be prevented from using BT correctly. You should be able to buff every finishing move with BT, and most Rakes aswell. I have yet to see a boss in Highmaul prevent me from doing so due to mechanics, and thus have seen a dps boost by using Bloodtalons (the only boss I can see an arguement for LI on is Twin Ogron).

 

The statistics you linked on your testing are hard to understand, do you mean that you saw Rake do 3% more damage then it had in your previous test, aka in test 1 it did a total of 100k damage and in test 2 it did 103k, or do you mean that it did 3% more percentage wise of your damage, as in it was 17% of your damage in test 1 and 20% in test 2. Please clarify. If the former is true, frankly you failed to use BT correctly. If the latter is true, this is a poor way to compare the numbers and I would encourage you to take logs and post each test so we can compare them to each other.

Edited by Bradykin

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Let me rephrase what I said. Sims have shown us that if you can reliably use the BT buff on the correct spells, it far surpasses LI.

 

...

 

The statistics you linked on your testing are hard to understand, do you mean that you saw Rake do 3% more damage then it had in your previous test, aka in test 1 it did a total of 100k damage and in test 2 it did 103k, or do you mean that it did 3% more percentage wise of your damage, as in it was 17% of your damage in test 1 and 20% in test 2.

 

It was the latter. What I mean is that Melee remained constant, Shred was down slightly as a percentage of damage with LI (for obvious reasons), and Rip and Rake were up about 3% each as a percentage of the total with BT. Meanwhile, LI contributed 10% of damage on its own. 

 

I will fully admit that I may not yet be executing BT perfectly. But I would be curious to know what "far surpasses" means. By how much? I'd be even more curious to see logs of the exact same "elite" Ferals using BT and LI on the same exact fight (and enough logs to provide good averages). That would be the real answer to this question, not a sim.

 

Right now, with a 646 ilvl, I'm seeing better DPS with LI. But as I said, I'm not ruling out user error. I'm just a little bit suspicious, as opposed to Incarnation which seems clearly superior at 60.

Edited by JoeDruid

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It was the latter. What I mean is that Melee remained constant, Shred was down as a percentage of damage with LI (for obvious reasons), and Rip and Rake were up about 3% each. Meanwhile, LI contributed 10% of damage on its own. 

 

I will fully admit that I may not yet be executing BT perfectly. But I would be curious to know what "far surpasses" means. By how much? I'd be even more curious to see logs of the exact same "elite" Ferals using BT and LI on the same exact fight (and enough logs to provide good averages). That would be the real answer to this question, not a sim.

 

It's true that we don't have a ton of logs with which to provide conclusive proof yet. I can tell you that for me, from personal practice that in my gear, the difference is about 2k dps for me on most encounters, Twins and Brackenspore being notable exceptions (Twins LI is slightly higher, Brackenspore the BT is slightly higher but by a tiny percentage), on Tectus LI is actually deceptively terrible because there are too many targets, and BT is very,very ahead because of buffing Thrash, and on Imperator the only time you have 2-3 long-living adds (which is when LI is better) is during the transition, when you should be using your Incarnation+Berserk and thus getting more from BT at the time because you are able to spam.

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It's true that we don't have a ton of logs with which to provide conclusive proof yet. I can tell you that for me, from personal practice that in my gear, the difference is about 2k dps for me on most encounters, Twins and Brackenspore being notable exceptions (Twins LI is slightly higher, Brackenspore the BT is slightly higher but by a tiny percentage), on Tectus LI is actually deceptively terrible because there are too many targets, and BT is very,very ahead because of buffing Thrash, and on Imperator the only time you have 2-3 long-living adds (which is when LI is better) is during the transition, when you should be using your Incarnation+Berserk and thus getting more from BT at the time because you are able to spam.

 

What percentage increase are you seeing from BT? What is the total that includes that 2k?

Edited by JoeDruid

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What percentage increase are you seeing from BT? What is the total that includes that 2k?

 

when playing well, that would be going from like 27-28k to 29-30k. 

 

My apologies, should have said that.

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