Frost Death Knight 7.1

[Damien 1,514]

This thread is for comments about our Frost Death Knight guide.

[Karsteck 5]

The simplified rotation should not suggest leaving out soul reaper.  It deals shadowfrost damage in 6.0, so it's very strong, esp. for mastery-stacking dual wield.  Leaving out obliterate is a good suggestion, as I've read a couple theorycrafters saying it looks like maybe a +/- 1% difference to use oblit or not (esp. under heroism when you're GCD locked, allows you to avoid resource capping, since letting unholy runes rot is no longer worth it.)

 

 By contrast, leaving out soul reaper hurts your DPS a lot.  The T16M (mythic) simcraft profile shows the DPET of soul reaper at over 3.5x that of howling blast.  http://www.simulationcraft.org/reports/Raid_T16M.html#player1

 

Suggesting that as a simplification is just not helpful, because if there's one thing you're going to be sloppy with, soul reaper should not be it.  "Below 35%, using soul reaper on cooldown is the most important part of your rotation, for all specs."  -- Mendenbarr.  quoted from his quick guide to lvl90 DK dps.  In the comments, a last-minute buff to oblit led to the statement that mastercomplex is probably very slightly better.  But obviously mastersimple doesn't mean leaving out soul reaper anymore.

 

 Soul reaper is really easy to use, esp. as dual wield, since it just replaces a howling blast.  It hits for substantially more than a HB, so there's no point trying to gloss that over.  Making it easier to use soul reaper right on CD is part of why blood tap is a good choice.

 

 Also, some people are suggesting running more haste than before, even as dual wield. e.g. changing to Garrosh pants instead of Malkorok pants, if you have them.  http://tanncraft.wordpress.com/2014/10/11/6-0-2-death-knight-dps-results/  suggests a haste soft-cap of 430 rating for DW frost.

 

 With RP from AMS nerfed a lot, it's not like you'll be GCD-locked very much of the time.

 

 Mendenbarr's results put haste > 1/2 str, so all red sockets should be filled with 10haste/10mastery gems.  (Keen vermillion onyx cut, formerly exp/mastery).  I'm not suggesting giving up any mastery for haste, just str, since you would have been using str/mastery gems otherwise.  (Not worth skipping any socket bonuses now, not even 4 haste bonuses in rings, I think.)

 

 If you do get to the point where you're wasting resources on real fights, then you need to wear less haste by either swapping pieces, or gemming back to str/mastery.  If you're not getting the rune-regen benefits of your haste, you're just getting the KM procs and white damage, and that's nice but not as valuable.

Edited October 15, 2014 by Karsteck

[Storm 426]

I'm running about 400 haste just from having haste on a few pieces and putting 10haste/10mastery gems in all my red sockets. It seems like a good amount of haste to play master simple about the same way it used to be, except I definitely noticed that during bloodlust/hero I had to use a lot more obliterates because I was regenerating runes faster than I could burn them during lust.

 

Sometimes even without hero/lust I had to obliterate once or twice just because the Unholy runes were getting ahead of me.

 

One thing I did notice is that Rime seems to proc a lot more often off obliterates. I don't know if it's always been 45% chance, but it definitely seems worth it to obliterate more often if nearly half the time you get a free howling blast from it anyways.

[Karsteck 5]

One thing I did notice is that Rime seems to proc a lot more often off obliterates. I don't know if it's always been 45% chance, but it definitely seems worth it to obliterate more often if nearly half the time you get a free howling blast from it anyways.

 

 Rime's been 45% for all of MoP, at least.  It's a big part of what makes oblit worth using.

 

 I didn't try on anything but a target dummy yet, but even 440 haste (from switching gems and 2 pieces of gear) still left me with a lot of dead time (mastercomplex).  Mastersimple fills more GCDs to use the same runes, since HB + PS is 2 GCDs.  But as I understand it, mastercomplex is slightly more dps.

 

 I'll have to get a feel for when it's worth letting the rotation slide and ending up with an unholy rune that I can't spend except by dumping it with plague strike, vs. when I can oblit without risking worse mistakes with my rotation.  (like oblit with 2 death runes would be really bad, consuming KM would be somewhat bad.  Can often just wait for KM to proc again without capping runes or RP, though.)

Edited October 15, 2014 by Karsteck

[Storm 426]

I did some math with my logs and posted a thread about mastersimple. Obliterate is abolutely the best use of an unholy rune, unless diseases are about to fall off, or you're plague leeching, and outbreak's cd has more than 6 seconds left.

 

KM proc on an obliterate is a loss, but there were a few occasions where I didn't have the RP to frost strike when a KM proc was up anyways. This is probably partially an issue of needing to save RP for killing machine unless I'm capped, but at the same time I wonder how much of a loss it really is if Obliterating would mean higher stacks from our 2pc bonus. getting 10 stacks has always been a bit of rng, but it's actually fairly difficult if not impossible to keep 10 stacks rolling now with mastersimple.

[Vlad 411]

I have amended the simplified dual-wield rotation to reflect the true loss of DPS, which is much greater now. That said, while I agree that incorporating Soul Reaper in there is not hard, to do so would defeat the purpose of the simplified rotation. It's still only meant as a gateway to a better Frost rotation.

[Karsteck 5]

I did some math with my logs and posted a thread about mastersimple. Obliterate is abolutely the best use of an unholy rune, unless diseases are about to fall off, or you're plague leeching, and outbreak's cd has more than 6 seconds left.

 

 

 

hang on, we're using outbreak now?  I guess if oblit + whatever rime is worth on average is more than HB + PS, and we have the GCDs, then that makes sense.

 

KM proc on an obliterate is a loss, but there were a few occasions where I didn't have the RP to frost strike when a KM proc was up anyways. This is probably partially an issue of needing to save RP for killing machine unless I'm capped, but at the same time I wonder how much of a loss it really is if Obliterating would mean higher stacks from our 2pc bonus. getting 10 stacks has always been a bit of rng, but it's actually fairly difficult if not impossible to keep 10 stacks rolling now with mastersimple.

 

 2pc stacks from KM procs, not consuming it.  That's why there's a haste soft-cap for fitting in an extra autoattack into the window to refresh stacks.  KM proccing while already up (refreshing the KM buff to full duration) will add a stack of the 2pc buff.  Consuming KM with an oblit should be worth it if you're too low on RP to FS anyway.

 

 

 

I have amended the simplified dual-wield rotation to reflect the true loss of DPS, which is much greater now. That said, while I agree that incorporating Soul Reaper in there is not hard, to do so would defeat the purpose of the simplified rotation. It's still only meant as a gateway to a better Frost rotation.

 

 Simplified rotations like leaving out rupture as combat rogue should only be suggested when they're only a couple percent DPS loss at worst.  Nobody would suggest leaving Execute out of a warrior DPS guide.  If you're reading a guide at all, you want to know what you should be pressing.  Leaving out oblit is something worth suggesting as a simplification, but leaving out soul reaper doesn't reduce complexity much.  It's not a good choice for being one of the first things to let slide on a complex fight when you need to pay attention to more stuff.

 

 Soul reaper went from hitting for slightly more or even slightly less than HB depending on mastery, to hitting for a LOT more.  The guide's recommendation must change.

 

 If you're going to be making rotation mistakes, it should be something like not having runes ready for soul reaper when it comes off CD, not leaving it out on purpose.  I'd guess that not optimizing your rotation around consuming killing machine with FS right away would be less bad than skipping soul reaper.  Since you'd still consume killing machine.  Some with oblit, some with FS.

 

 So I'd suggest to people that need more attention on some fight, less on their rotation, that getting more casual about saving runic power when you don't have KM procced would be something you could afford to let slide.  You can keep pressing buttons and HB / FS will keep happening (and soul reaper), even if you end up letting some unholy rune regen time go to waste, or dump some RP without KM procced.  Being sloppy like that probably hurts you DPS less, and saves you more attention, than just forgetting about soul reaper.

 

 One thing I sometimes do when things get complicated is start tapping my blood tap button without really paying attention to whether it's optimal to blood tap then.  Lets me keep pressing buttons while I pay attention to the fight.  I don't macro blood tap, because I don't want to pop up a F rune when I already have 2 B (death) runes that I need to spend one of so they can be regening.  Or so I can get runes depleted so I can use plague leech closer to on CD, esp. if adds are going to spawn soon, and I want to get more gas in the resource tank before that, rather than plague leech while I'm missing out on multi-target howling blasting.

Edited October 18, 2014 by Karsteck

[Guest connorr]

dual wield rotation doesn't make sense. 

 

 

1. (step 5)Use your Death and Frost runes on  Howling Blast.
2. (step 6) Use your Unholy Runes on  Obliterate.

 

if you're using all your death and frost runes on howling blast how will you ever have nothing else to do but still be able to obliterate? 

[Karsteck 5]

dual wield rotation doesn't make sense. 

 

 

1. (step 5)Use your Death and Frost runes on  Howling Blast.
2. (step 6) Use your Unholy Runes on  Obliterate.

 

if you're using all your death and frost runes on howling blast how will you ever have nothing else to do but still be able to obliterate? 

 

 They're in that order because it's more important to make sure your F and D runes are recharging than your U runes, but you do want all 3 rune pairs recharging to generate maximum runic power per minute.  On the pull, you'd probably oblit, HB, HB, as the quickest way to get your runes recharging.  Or you'd open with HB/PS, HB, HB, without outbreak.  Saving outbreak for sometime when you're going to have wait time in your rotation.

[Vlad 411]

dual wield rotation doesn't make sense. 

 

 

1. (step 5)Use your Death and Frost runes on  Howling Blast.
2. (step 6) Use your Unholy Runes on  Obliterate.

 

if you're using all your death and frost runes on howling blast how will you ever have nothing else to do but still be able to obliterate? 

As Karsteck correctly pointed out, the idea is that you want to have all your runes recharging, but it is more important to have Frost and Death runes recharging than Unholy runes. The idea is to never Obliterate without an Unholy rune. When you have an Unholy rune, you use it with another Frost or Death rune to Obliterate.

[Guest MMX]

Thanks for the guide, it's very helpful. I had a question, though. The guide suggests that, at the very highest levels of play, Blood Tap is the best choice for 2H Frost. However, the rotation provided for 2H Frost assumes the user has chosen Runic Empowerment. Any chance we could get an explanation of why Blood Tap is optimal for 2H Frost, and/or a 2H rotation that reflects having Blood Tap?

[Guest Morbai]

Ok I had a question too, for the Glyph Runic Power, wouldn't you be able to use the Glyph Pillar of Frost to slow yourself to proc Runic Power for the boost to runic power? Or am i reading that wrong, because if these two work together i think they will be much better than the other options for a dps increase.

[Plyte 0]

Interesting.  I just came back to WoW, haven't played since Wrath, and I came up with this exact rotation on my 2h frost DK.

From my experience, if you aren't geared, Dual Wield feels really underwhelming.  I had roughly 2 blue 1h weapons of equal item level to my 2h, and the DPS just doesn't compare.

I don't understand prioritizing crit over mastery in 2h builds.  I feel like I get a lot of KM procs and that mastery feels better. 

[Storm 426]

Thanks for the guide, it's very helpful. I had a question, though. The guide suggests that, at the very highest levels of play, Blood Tap is the best choice for 2H Frost. However, the rotation provided for 2H Frost assumes the user has chosen Runic Empowerment. Any chance we could get an explanation of why Blood Tap is optimal for 2H Frost, and/or a 2H rotation that reflects having Blood Tap?

 

For DW frost, Bloodtap is the better choice because it's easier and more consistent for gaming your unholy runes and turning them into death runes which can be used for howling blast.

 

for 2H all runes can be used for obliterate so it is most important to use the talent with the highest rune regen rate, which is Runic Empowerment. But even with higher haste where bloodtap may sim higher, the rotation won't actually change, and you can just macro blood tap onto frost strike without any loss of dps, whereas macro'ing blood tap for DW is a dps loss every time you use it on something other than an unholy rune.

 

The most important thing is too make sure if you are using RE that you have a fully depleted rune ready for a proc any time you frost strike, and for Blood tap that you have a fully depleted rune and use blood tap before reaching 12 charges. basically not wasting procs is the most important thing

[Storm 426]

Ok I had a question too, for the Glyph Runic Power, wouldn't you be able to use the Glyph Pillar of Frost to slow yourself to proc Runic Power for the boost to runic power? Or am i reading that wrong, because if these two work together i think they will be much better than the other options for a dps increase.

 

I'm going to test this tonight. I've found one or two other people asking this question, but nobody has answered it yet, that I can find. If it does work, you could also use Death's advance to essentially remove the slow effect as well. I'll post my findings after I jump into the beta tonight to try it.

[Storm 426]

Interesting.  I just came back to WoW, haven't played since Wrath, and I came up with this exact rotation on my 2h frost DK.

From my experience, if you aren't geared, Dual Wield feels really underwhelming.  I had roughly 2 blue 1h weapons of equal item level to my 2h, and the DPS just doesn't compare.

I don't understand prioritizing crit over mastery in 2h builds.  I feel like I get a lot of KM procs and that mastery feels better. 

 

It all comes down to 2H doing 40% extra damage with obliterate, and crits being double damage for DK's. even though 1/3 of our obliterates are already crits from KM procs, it's still more of a gain to add more crit than to have mastery which only buffs howling blast, frost strike, and frost fever and does 0 for obliterate. If anything, even if you were in a situation where you're at like 80%+ obliterate crits then haste > 600 rating would probably still be better than mastery, except maybe in heavy aoe/cleave situations where you're howling blasting a lot even as 2H, but if there's a boss fight like that you should go DW.

[Karsteck 5]

For DW frost, Bloodtap is the better choice because it's easier and more consistent for gaming your unholy runes and turning them into death runes which can be used for howling blast.

 

for 2H all runes can be used for obliterate so it is most important to use the talent with the highest rune regen rate, which is Runic Empowerment. But even with higher haste where bloodtap may sim higher, the rotation won't actually change, and you can just macro blood tap onto frost strike without any loss of dps, whereas macro'ing blood tap for DW is a dps loss every time you use it on something other than an unholy rune.

 

The most important thing is too make sure if you are using RE that you have a fully depleted rune ready for a proc any time you frost strike, and for Blood tap that you have a fully depleted rune and use blood tap before reaching 12 charges. basically not wasting procs is the most important thing

 

 

 You're making a logical error about blood tap (for DW).  Unless you sit there with both U runes full (regardless of one of them currently being a death rune), you're getting the same amount of U runes per minute with BT or gamed RE.  i.e. exactly the base rune regen rate, with no more and no fewer due to procs.  Turning a U rune into a D rune doesn't turn any of your U rune-regen into D runes, it just puts your extra procced rune there, forcing you to spend it before your still-U rune finishes regening if you want to avoid capping U runes.  (Avoiding capping on U runes is still your lowest priority, so KM, soul reaper, and avoiding capping F and D runes or RP are still more important.  Better to dump RP and THEN spend your U rune if you can't avoid one or the other capping.)

 

 Using BT to generate extra D runes in the F or D pairs is fine, too, as long as you don't let them cap and lose out on the rune-regen for those pairs.

 

 The reason you shouldn't macro BT is because popping a rune up when you aren't about to spend it could lead to capping on runes while consuming a KM proc.  Or if you have 0 F, 2 D, and you BT, HB will spend the 1 F before you can spend one of the 2 D runes to start them regening.  If you're in that state with KM procced, you want to KM but absolutely not BT.

 

 Also, BT is a good way to make it easier to use soul reaper right on CD.

 

 And if you have a lot of haste as DW, if you are close to GCD locked, the consistency is important.  You'll cap on resources during a lucky streak of RE procs, or starve during a drought. (e.g. in my 585 frost gear, I have about 530, and can still avoid capping anything almost all the time, using mastercomplex.)  It's also hard to use all your KM on FS without potentially wasting RE procs, if you have multiple KMs proc in a row, and thus want to do 3 or 4 FS in a row.  With RE, the first or 2nd might have procced your only fully depleted rune, so you'd be wasting potential procs after that.  With BT, if you're at high RP and BT charges, it's prob. a good idea to pop a BT right then in case you need to keep dumping RP, and your rune might not be fully depleted when you hit 11 or 12 BT charges.

 

 

 If your haste% is a lot lower, like maybe first tier of WoD, RE might be more attractive for DW, since there will be more waiting time.  Less chance of capping resources during a lucky streak.  Although I'm not sure that's actually true, if you pool RP to wait for KM procs.  (still not capping runes or RP ever, just when you see some downtime coming, wait before you dump the RP you have).

 

 BT is nice for 2H because you can be ready to oblit in reaction to a KM without losing out on runes from spending RP.  With RE, you often need to oblit without KM just to get some fully depleted runes.  Often you'll have 1 rune up, 2 runes fully depleted, spending RP to proc runes.  Often KM will proc before a rune does, and then you are stuck spending it on KM.  Unless rune-regen is within a second or two of getting you another oblit, you risk losing out on a KM proc from the next autoattack.

 

 So basically, I'd say completely the opposite.  RE is very workable as DW, because it's really easy to game (just leave a U rune unspent at all times, dead simple).  You don't have to game it for 2H to control which kind of rune you proc, but the problem is you often have to leave yourself not ready to consume a KM proc.  If you really wanted to use RE, I'd suggest DW would be the spec to do it.  The simcraft T16M BiS profile uses blood tap for all 3 DPS DK setups, because it's better if you do it well.  They have blood using RC, I guess for more scent of blood?

 

 Non-macroed BT takes some learning, but if you have a good rune UI like compactrunes (highly HIGHLY recommend it), and a counter for your BT charges right next to it, you can do good things.  If you need to not be tunnelling on your runes during an attention-requiring part of the fight, just spam BT while you do your rotation.  I bind FS to backquote, BT to 1, oblit to 2, HB to 3, PS to 4.  So BT is right there in the middle of my buttons easy to press while moving and DPSing.

 

 Esp. if you also tank, it's a good idea to learn to BT.  Great way to keep a death strike banked up for when you need it.  And using the same RP->Rune talent for both your specs will help your sanity.

 

 Similarly to banking death strikes, un-macroed BT can let you save up howling blasts for adds, instead of being forced to spend runes according to RNG procs.

 

 Macroed BT can lead to resource capping that you could have avoided, but other than that I think it's an OK choice, on par with RE if I recall correctly.  I've never tried macroing it, myself.  I think people have made action lists to simulate macroed BT, so you can see in theory how much patchwerk DPS it costs to macro it, vs. managing it optimally.

 

 I'm not sure whether I'd suggest stepping up from mastersimple to mastercomplex, or un-macroing BT, as the first step for players that want to do better DPS when they can spare the attention for it.  Being able to unload more HB on adds when needed might make more difference.  mastercomplex is more helpful when you need to spend runes faster, like with good gear (high haste), and/or under heroism.  (or if there are phases where you can't spend runes, so you end up sitting on 6 full runes more than just on the pull.)

Edited October 31, 2014 by Karsteck

[Guest Kerrigen]

Hello guys. Could you tell me please why are you suggesting Inscribed Vermilion Onyx/Perfect Inscribed Tiger Opal as the best gems in red slots for 2h frost DKs? In stats weight is haste>crit. Isn't Fierce Vermilion Onyx better option?

[Guest Lee]

I don't seem to see a recommendation for Runeforging

[Guest Impurus]

One thing I don´t understand. Whis Patch 6.0.2 there was a sentence into the Notes as follow "All specializations now receive a 5% bonus to specific secondary stat bonuses received from all sources. This bonus is granted through new passive abilities or additional effects added to existing passive abilities." For Frost DK they recommended Haste. But why a DW DK needs now mastery and a 2H DK Haste? I´m a little bit confused because what happens whis Mastery Frozen Heart in this case?

I have in the moment 330 Haste; 398 Mastery and 636 Crit. Maybe I´m wrong but I think I will increase now haste to max i can get instad of Crit...is it right?

[Guest Ryan]

I don't seem to see a recommendation for Runeforging

Duel wielding DPS: Rune of Razorice and Rune of the Fallen Crusader.

Two handed DPS: Rune of the Fallen Crusader.

Two handed Tank: Rune of the Fallen Crusader.

From my experience anyway!

 

[Vlad 411]

There are runeforging recommendations on the enchants page :)

[Guest Fang]

What priority does defile have for 2H frost dks?

[Guest Dennis]

When will we see an update for level 100? Thanks

[Vlad 411]

What priority does defile have for 2H frost dks?

Same as DW, just under Soul Reaper. The guide is updated to fix the missing line :)

 

When will we see an update for level 100? Thanks

It has been since the day the expansion went live.