Frost Mage 6.2

[Guest Pix]

Anyone else notice how the guide says, "Comet Storm is currently never worth taking." But Kuni, who reviewed and approved the guide, has Comet Storm as his Tier 7 talent. Just curious why that might be.

[Damien 1,514]

Anyone else notice how the guide says, "Comet Storm is currently never worth taking." But Kuni, who reviewed and approved the guide, has Comet Storm as his Tier 7 talent. Just curious why that might be.

 

I will ask him, but I think that he was mostly testing this talent to see if his assessment was true. I'll post here once I have a reply from him.

[Guest Azymyth]

Hi,

Perhaps I missed it, but where does Prismatic Crystal get cast in the opening sequence? If I am using Frost Bomb and Mirror Images, would this be the correct order?

Pre Pot and pre cast Frost Bolt

Frost Bomb on boss

Frozen Orb

IV

MI

PC

Or should PC be cast earlier in the sequence?

[Oltier 471]

Anyone else notice how the guide says, "Comet Storm is currently never worth taking." But Kuni, who reviewed and approved the guide, has Comet Storm as his Tier 7 talent. Just curious why that might be.

 

 

I will ask him, but I think that he was mostly testing this talent to see if his assessment was true. I'll post here once I have a reply from him.

 

He might have been just doing some solo content as well, where the other two talents are quite situational :)

[Damien 1,514]

Anyone else notice how the guide says, "Comet Storm is currently never worth taking." But Kuni, who reviewed and approved the guide, has Comet Storm as his Tier 7 talent. Just curious why that might be.

As Berlinia pointed out, he was using it for solo/Challenge Mode content. He also wanted to test it in raids to see if he could argue on the official forums for a buff to the talent.

 

Hi,

Perhaps I missed it, but where does Prismatic Crystal get cast in the opening sequence? If I am using Frost Bomb and Mirror Images, would this be the correct order?

Pre Pot and pre cast Frost Bolt

Frost Bomb on boss

Frozen Orb

IV

MI

PC

Or should PC be cast earlier in the sequence?

You are correct and I amended the opening rotation to include Prismatic Crystal.

[Ceraius 34]

Speaking of the last tier talents, how big is the dps loss with Comet Storm in comparison to the other two assuming an itemlevel of around 645 and if we treat the optimal talent as the starting point (100% DPS) on an average length Highmaul boss (5-7mins?) ?

[Oltier 471]

Speaking of the last tier talents, how big is the dps loss with Comet Storm in comparison to the other two assuming an itemlevel of around 645 and if we treat the optimal talent as the starting point (100% DPS) on an average length Highmaul boss (5-7mins?) ?

Source: http://altered-time.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=749&start=180

 

So, quite decend DPS lossm that it's not even on the list. :'D

Keep in mind tho, that this is only simulation craft on patchwerk fights :)

[Guest Quest]

You saying that FB and PC are number one but im the lowest geared mage and the most slacky one as i dont care about normal and heroic modes as they wont be that hard wen you get gear but mythic needs skill but then again wen i raid with the guild i alwasy out dps my fellow mages not with much but still and i use TV. And IN and MI and Some time my dps outscale most people in the guild with this talent setup i was always in top 10 of the dps 40% of the time in the top 5 and on some fights ( multi fight) im top dps i understand if 2 mages are worse in skills but i dont think my whole guild is bad

So i wonder if TV is realy that bad as i out dps most people who are better geared than my my il is 640 but i dont have my full bis stats on all the items maby 4 items of the 6 are good but then again they are 630 il as they where easy to get from farming dungeons

[Guest Jona]

Why is Grandiose Power not recognized on the trinket tier list? Even the normal version is worth a mention, and the Warforged piece is quite strong before Heroic/mythic BiS trinkets.

[Damien 1,514]

Why is Grandiose Power not recognized on the trinket tier list? Even the normal version is worth a mention, and the Warforged piece is quite strong before Heroic/mythic BiS trinkets.

Good catch! I'll add it when I run the sims again for the Blackrock Foundry trinkets.

[Guest Wackanut]

So doing a little back and forth latley to help tailor my build, and Mr. Robot and this guide have two different takes on the stat priority. Just curious what you would claim thier reasoning is between having Haste in the spot where you have Versatility?

[Guest Withermage]

Seems like a lot of the top mages in the world right now are favoring mastery over crit. May need to think some of the priority. 

[Berlinia 168]

You saying that FB and PC are number one but im the lowest geared mage and the most slacky one as i dont care about normal and heroic modes as they wont be that hard wen you get gear but mythic needs skill but then again wen i raid with the guild i alwasy out dps my fellow mages not with much but still and i use TV. And IN and MI and Some time my dps outscale most people in the guild with this talent setup i was always in top 10 of the dps 40% of the time in the top 5 and on some fights ( multi fight) im top dps i understand if 2 mages are worse in skills but i dont think my whole guild is bad

So i wonder if TV is realy that bad as i out dps most people who are better geared than my my il is 640 but i dont have my full bis stats on all the items maby 4 items of the 6 are good but then again they are 630 il as they where easy to get from farming dungeons

TV isn;t bad at all, none ever said that. However talent priorities swap around with gear. For example low end gear mages prefer Ice Nova over Frostbomb because of the low FoF generation (lower) and other factors. 

Also your personal dps in your groups doesn't show absolutely anything about the power of a certain talent.

[Oltier 471]

So doing a little back and forth latley to help tailor my build, and Mr. Robot and this guide have two different takes on the stat priority. Just curious what you would claim thier reasoning is between having Haste in the spot where you have Versatility?

 

 

Seems like a lot of the top mages in the world right now are favoring mastery over crit. May need to think some of the priority. 

 

 

Ask Mr. Robot is a tool, not a guide. As it has been stated here before on several occasions, your actual stat priorities highly depend on your talent choices. The only way to get the perfect stat priorities for yourself is by simming your character.

 

What we suggest here, is a general basis. It's not the best for every talent combination, but neither it is bad. If I had to use one word to describe it, it would be: consistent.

[Berlinia 168]

@oltier except multistrike.... thats always best

[xerty 0]

https://www.icy-veins.com/wow/frost-mage-pve-dps-statistics-priority

Mentions Frost Armor giving 8% multistrike. Would be nice but we no longer have Frost Armor ;-)

[Oltier 471]

https://www.icy-veins.com/wow/frost-mage-pve-dps-statistics-priority

Mentions Frost Armor giving 8% multistrike. Would be nice but we no longer have Frost Armor ;-)

We do, it's a passive frost-only ability ;)

[Guest Withermage]

Stat Weights and Priorities

 

I'll lead with the conclusion, and then make my case and findings. Conclusion based on -MY- current gear level and talent build: Multistrike > Haste > Versatility >= Mastery > Crit

 

I would weight them as 2.0 MultiStrike, 1.85 Haste, 1.7 Versatility, 1.65 Mastery, 1.5 Crit for use with Mr. Robot BIS Calculator, but those are just my approximations based on the following data: 

 

Talent Build: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/tool/talent-calculator#eb!1221200

Glyphs: icy_veins/splitting_ice/water_elemental/illusion/arcane_language/unbound_elemental

 

Talent Build greatly impacts the effects of certain secondary statistics, regardless of anything Multistrike is always the sure pick as our #1 stat, but when it comes to crit, mastery, versatility, and haste it's not so cut and dry. Here is the data SimC provided to me for my character at my current gear level, with a standard Frost PVE Build.

 

My Maximum DPS(e) at current gear level and statistics was simulated at: 29,249

 

Raising each of these stats by 500 effected my Simulated DPS by:

Multistrike - 30,736.4 DPS(e)

Haste - 30,705.40 DPS(e)

Versatility - 30424.8 DPS(e)

Mastery - 30394.8 DPS(e)

Crit - 30216.4 DPS(e)

 

As you can see here the SimC would suggest that Haste is of the most value to me right now as a secondary stat, placing it just behind Multistrike in effectiveness. 

 

I thought a 500 stat boost might be a tad much, so I also wanted to try another interval and picked 250. No change in the pecking order at all, here is the DPS Data from the simulations:

 

My maximum DPS(e) at current gear level and statistics was simulated at: 29,249

 

Raising these stats by 250 effect dps by:

Multistrike - 30,012.1 DPS(e)

Haste - 29,953.0 DPS(e)

Versatility - 29,838.0 DPS(e)

Mastery - 29824.50 DPS(e)

Crit - 29742.4 DPS(e)

 

Again we see that Multistrike has the largest increase, of course, but surprisingly Haste has a much stronger impact than crit. Even versatility and mastery are tied for third. 

 

Hmm, that's a strange finding, what do popular sites like Noxxic and Icy Veins have to say?

 

Noxxic Suggest the following priority which is generally followed by most: Intellect > Multistrike > Crit >= Versatility > Haste >= Mastery

 

They have mastery rather appropriately listed near the bottom, but Crit is highly over-valued in comparison to what the Simulations show. How about Icy Veins?

 

Icy Veins: Intellect > Multistrike > Versatility = Critical Strike > Mastery > Haste

 

Haste is at the bottom! Again Mastery is rather appropriately listed towards the bottom, and Crit once again is being over-valued. The keen observer may also note that Icy Veins and Noxxic list two different stat priorities even from each other, however neither of these priorities match up with my Simulated Data.

 

In order to figure this out and to maximize my potential moving forward, I found this very nice mage-dedicated community at Altered-Time.com, this place is very informative. This is what I found to be the most important:

 

 

Q4) How do I figure out what stats I want to get after MS?

A4) You sim yourself. There is no other real way to do it. There is no "MS > x > y > z " standard rule for Frost mage stat weights. It's very reliant upon your gear and talents. You must sim yourself.

 

Link to full thread and SimC Discussion: http://altered-time.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=749

 

I also found this at MMO-Champion, which also helps to explain the findings, however I did investigate my Crit rating and determined I cannot possibly be near the soft cap mentioned below. Then I realized that I am using a trinket that has a huge critical strike proc (Sandman's Pouch iLvl 670) (grants 1800+ crit for 20 sec) and it's possibly that when the trinket is procced, I am over the soft cap, essentially losing effectiveness.

 

 

STAT PRIORITY: Int > Multistrike > everything else

 

Haste, Crit before Shatter cap, Mastery, and Versatility are all incredibly close to each other in value; they will shuffle around depending on gear and talent selection. There's no way to tell you which is .01 better DPS than the others without simming yourself. There's a link at the bottom of the post to a great guide by Frost1129 on how to do that. As it stands, if it has higher ilvl than what you have and has more Multistrike and Intellect, take it.

 

Mastery is interesting. Our mastery stores a percentage of any Frostbolt or Frostfire Bolt damage event as an Icicle above your head. You can have up to five at any given time, the oldest one will automatically launch when you gain a sixth. They will all fire in a rapid barrage when you cast Ice Lance. For any normal circumstances, you will not need to pay attention to them. They're passive damage, much like fire's Ignite. They can be used to finish off low health enemies, if you have a decent judgement of how much damage is stored in them, though the only point I've seen this specific trick useful has been Proving Grounds. In general, they can be saved up, along with procs, to help burn down a high priority target quickly.

 

Crit soft cap is 36.33% raid buffed. This includes the 5% crit buff from Arcane Brilliance. Shatter is crit percent*1.5+50%. The math behind this is (((36.33-3)*1.5)+50)=100 after Blizzard's rounding is finished. You lose 1% crit against any target for every level higher than you are, before Shatter.

 

Multistrike is stat% chance, rolled twice, for a second/third spell fired at 30% damage. It's a slightly different version of Crit, and Multistrikes can Crit independently of the originating spell. Frostbolt and Frostfire Bolt Multistrikes will also generate Icicles. Brain Freeze is now triggered from Frostbolt at 10%, and Frostbolt Multistrikes increase this chance by 25% for each Multistrike, up to 60% from one Frostbolt cast (primary 10% with two Multistrikes for 25% each).

 

Versatility is simply a flat damage increase, with half of the total as a damage reduction. It's a pretty good stat, and unlike most classes, it's one of our better stats."

 

 

So, after determining I may be running into a Crit softcap issue, I took off Sandman's Pouch and replaced it with iLvl 655 Quiescent Runestone, This item has haste, and no critical strike or related procs.

 

I re-ran the +500 Simulations from earlier with the new gear equipped to see if Crit was now of a heavier value. So what did I find?:

 

My Maximum DPS(e) without the Sandman's Pouch iLvl 670 equipped (replaced by Quiescent Runestone iLvl 655): 28,904.2

 

As you may note my maximum DPS has fallen from the first simulation due to this trinket being equipped. 

 

Multistrike +500: 30,355.40 DPS(e)

Haste +500: 30,355.0  DPS(e) (Holy smokes now it's telling me haste is nearly identical to multi)

Versatility +500: 30,088.70 DPS(e)

Mastery +500: 30,052.20 DPS(e)

Crit +500: 30,009.70 DPS(e)

 

The pecking order remains the same, with some changes, the margin's aren't as large so it would appear that Crit has become more effective for me, Crit seems to be more or less Equal to Mastery and Versatility, but haste still shines as #2.

 

So one final test to run before I can be satisfied, I have simulated what my base dps is right now with current gear and talent spec. We are back to the Sandman's Pouch as the trinket.

 

My Maximum DPS(e) at current gear level and statistics was simulated at: 29,249

My Maximum DPS(e) if I was to trade 500 crit in exchange for 500 haste was simulated at: 31,720.9

 

In conclusion, it's obvious that not every player can simply accept the priority of statistics that are prescribed by popular sites such as Noxxic and Icy Veins, and that it's best for each individual to simulate their own character. I am going to start treating haste a bit differently, and seeing if that effects my DPS in-reality the same way that SimulationCraft seems to believe it will.

 

Also, please note simple choices such as Frost Bomb or Ice Nova and Prismatic Crystal over Thermal Void have extremely dramatic effects on your DPS and Stat Priorities. (PC simulates much higher DPS, but in reality is difficult to get 100% effectiveness out of the talent, so many use TV)

[Damien 1,514]

Welcome to our world.

[Guest Kktnxbaai]

Hello,

 

I noticed something in the guide.

 

I like to roll with Incanter's Flow and Ice Nova. 

BUT I noticed in the guide a note on Incanter's Flow: there is nothing special to do.

IMO that is not true since you need to time your highest dmg spell on right time when IF is at 5 stacks.

I try it to use it with 2 Ice Nova's at the start of the fight (with both 5 IF stacks ofc) and then time the Ice Nova that comes off CD with a 5 stack IF.

 

With the upcomming nerf to Mirror images IF might get a bit more viable! Dont know all the theory crafting behind Mirror images vs IF...

 

 

[Oltier 471]

Hello,

 

I noticed something in the guide.

 

I like to roll with Incanter's Flow and Ice Nova. 

BUT I noticed in the guide a note on Incanter's Flow: there is nothing special to do.

IMO that is not true since you need to time your highest dmg spell on right time when IF is at 5 stacks.

I try it to use it with 2 Ice Nova's at the start of the fight (with both 5 IF stacks ofc) and then time the Ice Nova that comes off CD with a 5 stack IF.

 

With the upcomming nerf to Mirror images IF might get a bit more viable! Dont know all the theory crafting behind Mirror images vs IF...

You are right about this, and actually further down in the guide, in the opening sequence it is indeed suggested. However, IF generally doesn't change your priority list. You don't really want to not cast Ice Nova for 6 seconds (when it has 2 charges) just because you you have low IF stacks.

[Guest lenny]

I also was wondering why Haste is last in the stat priority list? I know that somebody said that after multistrike, everything else is trivial, but that doesn't seem to be the case here. If this guide has really been reviewed and approved by Kuni, then why does his profile in Mr.Robot clearly shows that for him Haste is second most important secondary stat by far? He has twice as much Haste than Mastery.

[Oltier 471]

Multistrike is trivial.

The rest is not. It all depends on your talent choices. The only way to get your own stat prio is by simming yourself. In the guide, we suggest something that is generally ok for all setups.

[Berlinia 168]

@Oltier: Trivial means not important. I assume you mean EXTREMELY IMPORTANT!

[Oltier 471]

I mean: Multistrike being the best is trivial.

While the rest is not :)

 

So yep, bad wording, but I can't count how many times we have said: MULTISTRIKE IS the best! :D