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Holy Paladin 5.4

89 replies to this topic Started by Damien, Aug 27 2012 05:16 PM comments paladin holy

Posted 27 August 2012 - 05:16 PM

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Damien
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This thread is for comments about our Holy Paladin guide.

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Posted 27 August 2012 - 07:24 PM

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Boneslasher
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Please, could you correct the following mistakes? 1) Holy Radiance does not provide a HoT anymore, but heal for 'x' the target and for '1/2 x' the people around. Stop. No HoT. 2) guardian of the ancient kings is no longer a single target CD, because it heals the target of your heals and the people around for 10% of the amount of the original SINGLE TARGET heal. Lasts 30 sec and for every cast gives you a 10% spellhaste buff. 3) concerning stats priority, now that mana pool is fixed mastery is much better than before so I - and many much more important sources that me - would say: Int >= Spirit, Mastery >= Haste, Crit. Sorry for having wanted to correct you, I know how much effort you are putting in these AMAZING guides, but really, do not make haste, take care of each single guide and we will all eagerly wait! :)

Posted 27 August 2012 - 07:41 PM

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Please, could you correct the following mistakes?

1) Holy Radiance does not provide a HoT anymore, but heal for 'x' the target and for '1/2 x' the people around. Stop. No HoT.
2) guardian of the ancient kings is no longer a single target CD, because it heals the target of your heals and the people around for 10% of the amount of the original SINGLE TARGET heal. Lasts 30 sec and for every cast gives you a 10% spellhaste buff.

3) concerning stats priority, now that mana pool is fixed mastery is much better than before so I - and many much more important sources that me - would say:
Int >= Spirit, Mastery >= Haste, Crit.

Sorry for having wanted to correct you, I know how much effort you are putting in these AMAZING guides, but really, do not make haste, take care of each single guide and we will all eagerly wait! Posted Image


Thanks for posting, and there's no need to apologize for correcting us.

1) Thank you! Somehow, we had left the mention of it being a HoT in, even though it is not anymore. The guide will be updated shortly to rectify this.

2) We never say that it's exclusively a single target CD. In fact, it wasn't a single target cooldown before Mists of Pandaria, either. The healing used to splash to players then, just as it does now. We do mention in the guide that it can be used to heal the raid, not just the player. We're also aware of the spell haste buff it provides. We hadn't mentioned it, because it occurs passively, but we'll make sure to include it explicitly.

3) Could you link some of these sources? Personally, I don't really see what would make Mastery more valuable than Haste at the moment, mana pool size being fixed or not. But of course, I'm always willing to change my mind :)

And it's not that we're making haste, so much as it is that there is only so much that we can do before helpful users such as yourself contribute to improve our guides. We are human, and mistakes slip in all the time. Thanks again!

Posted 27 August 2012 - 08:01 PM

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Thanks for your answer, and apologize ... I thought I had read that GotAK was just a single target CD. But in Cata I'm pretty sure that it just copies your heal on the same target ... has it changed in 4.3 without my dumbness noticing it? :) Anyway these are all but two sources that were inspiring me, the second REALLY enlightening from the point of view of what does it mean to be a Holy Paladin. http://www.mmo-champ...-0-4-(for-Chaud) Thanks again!

Posted 27 August 2012 - 08:16 PM

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Vlad
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Thanks for your answer, and apologize ... I thought I had read that GotAK was just a single target CD. But in Cata I'm pretty sure that it just copies your heal on the same target ... has it changed in 4.3 without my dumbness noticing it? Posted Image

Anyway these are all but two sources that were inspiring me, the second REALLY enlightening from the point of view of what does it mean to be a Holy Paladin.

http://www.mmo-champ...-0-4-(for-Chaud)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZoXNA_yCDmQ

Thanks again!


In Cataclysm, GaotK does two things:
  • Replicates 5 single target heals. This means that the healing amount is identical. For example, I heal player X with a Divine Light for 23,543 and my guardian will also heal them for 23,543.
  • Every time the guardian replicates a heal, all nearby targets (10 yards) are healed for 10% of that heal. For example, I heal player X for a Divine Light for 10,000. My guardian heals that target for 10,000, and also heals all nearby targets for 1,000.
These two things have remained the same in Mists of Pandaria, no change at all (that I can detect, in either the wording of the spells, or in how they work). The only addition is the haste buff in Mists of Pandaria.

I'll watch that video. From the mmo-champion link, I see them saying that Mastery is slightly better than Haste, but no justification for it :) I'll keep digging.

Thanks again so much!

Posted 27 August 2012 - 10:30 PM

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Hello! Excellent guide as always. A few things I wanted to point out.

In the talents section, this is said:
"Posted Image Eternal Flame is also strong, but we believe that the loss of Posted Image Word of Glory in the process makes the talent undesirable."
Eternal Flame, for all intents and purposes, is simply Word of Glory with a HoT attached. You don't lose Word of Glory, it simply gets buffed.

Also, a Glyph that may be of interest to Holy Paladins, which was left out, is Glyph of Protector of the Innocent. It does work with Eternal Flame as well (although only the direct heal, not the HoT).

I feel it's also worth mentioning in the "Beacon of Light Subtleties" section that Holy Light transfers 100% of the heal through Beacon, and as such you should never use it on the Beacon target, as it's a healing loss to do so.

And lastly and not quite as important, Hand of Purity apparently works beyond just DoT debuffs. It works with any type of periodic damage. So for example, Morchok's black phase, Zon'ozz's black phase, Burning Blood or Blistering Heat on Madness of Deathwing, etc. It has many uses, but it's very encounter specific.

Keep up the good work!

Posted 27 August 2012 - 10:54 PM

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Hello! Excellent guide as always. A few things I wanted to point out.

In the talents section, this is said:
"Posted Image Eternal Flame is also strong, but we believe that the loss of Posted Image Word of Glory in the process makes the talent undesirable."
Eternal Flame, for all intents and purposes, is simply Word of Glory with a HoT attached. You don't lose Word of Glory, it simply gets buffed.

Also, a Glyph that may be of interest to Holy Paladins, which was left out, is Glyph of Protector of the Innocent. It does work with Eternal Flame as well (although only the direct heal, not the HoT).

I feel it's also worth mentioning in the "Beacon of Light Subtleties" section that Holy Light transfers 100% of the heal through Beacon, and as such you should never use it on the Beacon target, as it's a healing loss to do so.

And lastly and not quite as important, Hand of Purity apparently works beyond just DoT debuffs. It works with any type of periodic damage. So for example, Morchok's black phase, Zon'ozz's black phase, Burning Blood or Blistering Heat on Madness of Deathwing, etc. It has many uses, but it's very encounter specific.

Keep up the good work!


Thank you very much for your excellent post! I've made all the changes you suggested. The guide should show up as updated shortly. Let me know if you find anything else!

Posted 28 August 2012 - 01:30 PM

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Just wanted to point out something missing from your "Sustained high raid damage" portion of the rotation. Please don't forget to mention that most people will want to cast Holy Shock following Holy Radiance as the Daybreak proc makes your next Holy Shock cast an AoE heal.

Posted 28 August 2012 - 01:39 PM

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Concerning stats priorities, there is a guide that explain a bit more: http://getsussanctua...ally-guide-5-0/ It puts mastery and haste almost at the same level.

Posted 28 August 2012 - 06:31 PM

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This is a very great guide. However there are several statements I cannot agree. 1. Tier 5 talents I agree with you that Divine Purpose is not ideal for healer. And I highly plause that you point out the choice should be based on utility of the cooldowns. Holy Avenger requires you to use as much as possible Holy Power generating spells: DL or FoL on beaconed tank, HR, HS, and Crusador Strike. I don't know whether it procs with blessed life. HS has a cooldown, CS requires you be in melee range, and has missing issues, DL, FoL and HR are all situational and expensive, making this cooldown a scary mana dump. Sanctified Wrath allows you to use HS more. HS is a very good filling skill for either single target or aoe healing, due to its great mana efficiency, its instant casting, its intrinsic high crit chance, its nice crit proc and also with Daybreak effect its aoe effects. But, of course HA is independant, while SW is passive with AW, thus HA gives you one more cooldown at hand, as long as you have the mana to burn. 2. Tier 6 talents I believe stay of execution be the worst of this tier for a healer. Simply because this guy goes slowly at beginning, and becomes stronger as the hammer falls, and finishes with a big boom, usually the group is not going to allow tank or anyone's health to stay low for that long time for a final big boom. Even if you don't do that, other healers will quickly top tank off, and your big boom goes to overheal, hopefully you recycle some through mastery, unless you can time your spell with an incoming big damage preciesely, such as your hammer booms right after an impale or psychic drain. This cooldown is hard to manage. Holy prism is best at least for 5 man group. I only use this spell offensively. The 5 targets it heals almost surely includes the tank, and the other 4 will provide 15% through beacon. This is a very nice cooldown to quickly heal the tank and several nearby dps, it's strong and quick. Light's Harmmer is great for 25 man as you have more ppl stacking together. In 10 man, might be weaker. 3. Rotation, cooldown and abilities: You should forget about crusador strike now. Holy Insight no longer provides hit for this ability, face a skull levle raid boss, you naturally have 7.5% miss, 7.5% dodge, and if have to attack front, 15% parry. And CS mana cost has been significantly increased from 3% to 15%, and consider: Holy Light is 12%, and Holy Shock is 16%. Do you seriously want to use a spell that: a) consumes a gcd; B) costs almost the mana of an HS, yet gives almost no direct heal; c) only has 85% chance to give one holy power; d) chains you in melee range.

Posted 29 August 2012 - 02:49 PM

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Great guide, helped me a lot. Thanks for this!

A note for the buffs and debuffs page. Maybe this is common knowledge but I never saw this in any update notes and found it out the hard way last night.

Cleanse now has an 8 second cooldown.

Confused the heck out of me as I'm usually the primary dispeller on some fights and I couldn't figure out why I couldn't remove all of the debuffs anymore on heroic Zon'ozz.

Posted 29 August 2012 - 06:05 PM

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Vlad
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Great guide, helped me a lot. Thanks for this!

A note for the buffs and debuffs page. Maybe this is common knowledge but I never saw this in any update notes and found it out the hard way last night.

Cleanse now has an 8 second cooldown.

Confused the heck out of me as I'm usually the primary dispeller on some fights and I couldn't figure out why I couldn't remove all of the debuffs anymore on heroic Zon'ozz.


This is true. We tend not to focus so much on "changes" in our guides, as on the current stat of things. This makes it a bit trickier when first adapting to changes in the game, but afterwards it makes reading the guides much easier as they are more supple. In this instance, while I actually share your woe, we aren't going to include the cooldown there :)

This is a very great guide. However there are several statements I cannot agree.

1. Tier 5 talents
I agree with you that Divine Purpose is not ideal for healer. And I highly plause that you point out the choice should be based on utility of the cooldowns. Holy Avenger requires you to use as much as possible Holy Power generating spells: DL or FoL on beaconed tank, HR, HS, and Crusador Strike. I don't know whether it procs with blessed life. HS has a cooldown, CS requires you be in melee range, and has missing issues, DL, FoL and HR are all situational and expensive, making this cooldown a scary mana dump. Sanctified Wrath allows you to use HS more. HS is a very good filling skill for either single target or aoe healing, due to its great mana efficiency, its instant casting, its intrinsic high crit chance, its nice crit proc and also with Daybreak effect its aoe effects. But, of course HA is independant, while SW is passive with AW, thus HA gives you one more cooldown at hand, as long as you have the mana to burn.

2. Tier 6 talents
I believe stay of execution be the worst of this tier for a healer. Simply because this guy goes slowly at beginning, and becomes stronger as the hammer falls, and finishes with a big boom, usually the group is not going to allow tank or anyone's health to stay low for that long time for a final big boom. Even if you don't do that, other healers will quickly top tank off, and your big boom goes to overheal, hopefully you recycle some through mastery, unless you can time your spell with an incoming big damage preciesely, such as your hammer booms right after an impale or psychic drain. This cooldown is hard to manage. Holy prism is best at least for 5 man group. I only use this spell offensively. The 5 targets it heals almost surely includes the tank, and the other 4 will provide 15% through beacon. This is a very nice cooldown to quickly heal the tank and several nearby dps, it's strong and quick. Light's Harmmer is great for 25 man as you have more ppl stacking together. In 10 man, might be weaker.

3. Rotation, cooldown and abilities:
You should forget about crusador strike now. Holy Insight no longer provides hit for this ability, face a skull levle raid boss, you naturally have 7.5% miss, 7.5% dodge, and if have to attack front, 15% parry. And CS mana cost has been significantly increased from 3% to 15%, and consider: Holy Light is 12%, and Holy Shock is 16%. Do you seriously want to use a spell that: a) consumes a gcd; Posted Image costs almost the mana of an HS, yet gives almost no direct heal; c) only has 85% chance to give one holy power; d) chains you in melee range.


1. The problem is that the HS CD reduction is only during AW. And you usually use AW when you need to do a ton of healing. And when you need to do a ton of healing, you probably want something with more punch than HS. But it's still a good CD.

I prefer Holy Avenger because even though it consumes some mana, it provides a ton of throughput. And it's fully activatable, so you decide when you want it :) Overall though, they're pretty close

2. I can't quite agree here. The fact that the healing ramps up is only a problem if you want to use it to save someone from something unexpected. Otherwise, it works fine, you just need to pre-cast it. And perhaps talk to your healers so they know :)

3. You are totally right. I removed CS for now.

Thanks a lot of your feedback. It gave me something to think about.

Concerning stats priorities, there is a guide that explain a bit more:
http://getsussanctua...ally-guide-5-0/
It puts mastery and haste almost at the same level.


Thanks for the link! Our stats had already been updated to reflect this, but it is still appreciated!

Just wanted to point out something missing from your "Sustained high raid damage" portion of the rotation. Please don't forget to mention that most people will want to cast Holy Shock following Holy Radiance as the Daybreak proc makes your next Holy Shock cast an AoE heal.


Thank you very much for pointing this out. We've included it! The guide should be updated shortly.

Posted 31 August 2012 - 09:21 AM

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sinodin
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1. The problem is that the HS CD reduction is only during AW. And you usually use AW when you need to do a ton of healing. And when you need to do a ton of healing, you probably want something with more punch than HS. But it's still a good CD.

I prefer Holy Avenger because even though it consumes some mana, it provides a ton of throughput. And it's fully activatable, so you decide when you want it Posted Image Overall though, they're pretty close


HS in 5.0 is a strong punch, thus using more HS is a ton of heal. HA requires you to use Holy Power generating spells, HR, HS or direct heal on beacon, which in fact is not always the spell you want to use most. For example, on heroic Zon'ozz, usually paladin is assigned to heal melee during black phase. All you do is DL on the melee, with more HS here just gives you more holy power for a WoG, or the nice crit proc, or just HS itself as a strong (though no longer cheap) instant spell.

On the other hand, HA will be super to heal through sustained raid damage. For example heroic Yor's German team, heroic Ultraxion. HA changes your rotation for those conditions. You can do HS, LoD, HR, LoD, HS(with daybreak), LoD....

As ppl are fixing their UI and addons up, we tried a guild run Aug 30th night, killed first 4 on heroic, I was using Sanctified Wrath for Mor, Zon and Hagara, and HA for Yor. We will finish up on Sun, most likely heroic Ultra and Warmaster, maybe some attemps on spine, then finish it off on normal. I would go HA for Ultra, and madness, SW for spine for sure, most likely for Warmaster as well. Generally, where you do AoE healing more, you pick HA; while if you need to do single target more, you pick SW.


2. I can't quite agree here. The fact that the healing ramps up is only a problem if you want to use it to save someone from something unexpected. Otherwise, it works fine, you just need to pre-cast it. And perhaps talk to your healers so they know Posted Image


Data cited from wowdb:
>>Stay of execution: will heal in 10 sec totally 12976+594%SP----60 sec cooldown, but free of mana cost
>>Holy Prism: if used on boss, will heal tank directly 10882+96.2%SP, and 4 dps within 15 yards 10882+96.2%SP each. And asuming beacon is the tank, tank gains: 17411+154%SP healing, and, come on, healing those dps is important too.----20 sec cooldown, costing you 5.4% base mana, which is about 1/3 of a HS.
>>Light's Hammer heals 3630+32.1%SP per tick, 8 ticks not affected by haste. Not sure if it diminishes with >6 targets.----60 sec cooldown, and free


Hammer as we agree on, very situational, you need a lot of raid members stack in the hammer's area to make it great. Which could be the case, especially with a 25 man group. But who knows.
For Stay of Execution, I am not fully clear about how the ticks and boom is mathematically distributed, but numerically, the 10th tick, aka the boom is about 5 times the 9th and 10.7 times the first, on my beta character, the 10th tick hits 78k, and my DL hits for 64k. The pre-casting usage of this spell can very well be replaced by a pre-casting of DL. After all, pally is already the best single target healer, maybe we consider inhancing our AoE healing a bit more?

Posted 31 August 2012 - 10:47 AM

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Vlad
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Fair enough, I concede your point regarding Holy Prism. I've updated the talents and rotation pages to account for this. Thank you a lot for your comments and your deep argumentation. It's the best kind of feedback :)

Posted 06 September 2012 - 11:16 AM

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Guys with the current gear ( bits and pieces of T13 normals and LFR ) I have to admit that mana cap hit the healers badly. On HC raid fights I get OOM extremely fast; and tbh I am not even sure if autoattacks return mana, not by teh looks of it.. A CS however will cost approx as much mana as I would get back, so no use currently. I s this a problem for others as well? I may not be a long time healer as my main is a mage, but I did a couple of raids and enjoyed healing in 4.3 very much. WIth HR hots out of the window I think Holydins have become more single target healers and overall less effective on the current tier. ( guess the new gems and gear in mop will likely change Previously HR used to be one of my main heals in our raid group, now due to the lack of hots its more on to directs heals+absorbs. I generally liked the previous setup but have not given up yet to get used to 5.0.

Edited by CsabeeVs, 06 September 2012 - 11:18 AM.

Posted Image

Posted 06 September 2012 - 02:44 PM

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i would like to add something..

Tier 5 talent, Divine Purpose.

You said that its randomness will make the talent less desirable to you as a healer, since you may get its benefit when you do not need it, and you may need it when it does not proc.I would like to dispute that cause its really good one. The thing is that it can proc from proc.. so with this mechanic, i ended up with 7 chained procs, just casting EF and LoD. in raid, or even dungeon you will hardly have any big downtime between pulls, so even if it procs at the end of fight and last for 8sec, you will have time to use it. Only way when i see that it can be wasted is between boss fights in Dragon soul, and even that is considered IF you have whole raid/party full after the fight, which is less likely.

Posted 10 September 2012 - 12:29 PM

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Vlad
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i would like to add something..

Tier 5 talent, Divine Purpose.

You said that its randomness will make the talent less desirable to you as a healer, since you may get its benefit when you do not need it, and you may need it when it does not proc.I would like to dispute that cause its really good one. The thing is that it can proc from proc.. so with this mechanic, i ended up with 7 chained procs, just casting EF and LoD. in raid, or even dungeon you will hardly have any big downtime between pulls, so even if it procs at the end of fight and last for 8sec, you will have time to use it. Only way when i see that it can be wasted is between boss fights in Dragon soul, and even that is considered IF you have whole raid/party full after the fight, which is less likely.


What you are reporting is your own personal experience with lucky strings of procs. I'm not saying that the talent isn't absolutely awesome when it procs off of itself 7 times in a row. I don't think anyone can dispute that.

But this changes nothing about the fact that it always has a random chance of proccing. A 25% chance, while not low, is certainly nowhere near high enough to be considered reliable.

If you have Divine Purpose, you might end up with more healing over the course of the fight than with any other talent, this is true. But it gives you no control over when you can do burst healing. And it has nothing to do with downtime in between fights.

Let's take the example of a fight like Madness of Deathwing. Say you need to do a lot of healing on the final platform (your raid will take a lot of damage from the Blistering Tentacles). Divine Purpose *may* help you if you get a lucky string of procs. Do you have any guarantee of this? No. With a 25% chance of the first proc, is it likely? If anything, it's on the unlikely side.

On the other hand, consider Holy Avenger. Holy Avenger can be saved and used specifically in this moment. Its benefit is guaranteed. It will not let you down.

So, for the time being, we will leave the talents as they are. Especially since most top Holy Paladins seem to have gone with Holy Avenger.

Posted 13 September 2012 - 07:00 AM

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You forgot to mention in the Beacon of Light section that the Beacon target gets 50% of each tic of eternal flame from each target it is on. Also I have a question about Sacred Shield. How does it work with multiple SS from different paladins on the same target? Does it just take the strongest? Cause that's what I assumed.

Posted 14 September 2012 - 01:00 PM

#19
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Really curious to see how this: Paladin Divine Purpose should only have one chance to activate once per finisher (which must land on at least one target).< As hot fixed in 5.0.5 is going to affect players choices. Can anyone fill me in on their experience?

Posted 15 September 2012 - 05:22 PM

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Vlad
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You forgot to mention in the Beacon of Light section that the Beacon target gets 50% of each tic of eternal flame from each target it is on.


Also I have a question about Sacred Shield. How does it work with multiple SS from different paladins on the same target? Does it just take the strongest? Cause that's what I assumed.


Thanks for your comment. I've added Eternal Flame (and Word of Glory, for that matter, since it was suspiciously missing).

Regarding multiple Sacred Shields on the same target, I really have no had a way to test this on the Beta. I will try to conduct some tests on live to see, and let you know.

Really curious to see how this:

Paladin

Divine Purpose should only have one chance to activate once per finisher (which must land on at least one target).<

As hot fixed in 5.0.5 is going to affect players choices. Can anyone fill me in on their experience?


This blue post explains the change in more depth. Basically, it is a balance fix that I believe neither buffs nor nerfs the ability. If anything, it is a slight buff, by increasing the chance of back-to-back procs. I'd still not choose this over Holy Avenger.

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