Stan

Patch 7.2.5 - Upcoming Mythic Keystone Changes

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Blizzard talked about changes to Mythic+ Keystones in Patch 7.2.5. The depletion mechanism will be removed. If you don't finish the dungeon in time, you'll get a a Keystone for a random dungeon that's 1 level lower than the one you used. 

Completing the run within the set time frame has the same effect as in 7.2. You get a Keystone that's 1-3 levels higher than the used one. Rewards are also on their radar, because players used lower Keystone runs to get best rewards. Finishing a Keystone will reward two items and an AP token. If you beat the timer (regardless of how quickly), the final chests will give you a third item reward.

Blizzard LogoBlizzard (Source)

We’ve been thrilled to see how positively players have responded to Mythic Keystone dungeons since Legion’s release. However, there are a couple areas in which our original design for the system hasn’t quite matched up with how things have worked out in practice. In an upcoming 7.2.5 PTR build, we’re going to try out a couple of changes to how Keystone runs work.

The first big change is that we’re getting rid of the depletion mechanic. We’d originally imagined that getting ahold of a Keystone would be more of a barrier than it is, but in reality, there are so many players participating that it’s generally not too difficult to find someone with a Keystone you’d like to run. In that environment, depleting a Keystone is more of an annoyance than anything else – especially when it happens for reasons outside of your control (such as a player disconnecting).

Instead, we’re going to try the following:
  • Completing the run on time will have the same results it currently does in 7.2: you’ll get a new Keystone for a random dungeon that’s 1-3 levels higher than the one you just completed, based on how quickly you finished.
  • If you complete the dungeon but don’t make the timer, you’ll get a Keystone for a random dungeon that’s 1 level lower than the one you just used.
  • If you don’t complete the dungeon at all, you’ll have a Keystone for the same dungeon that’s one level lower than the one you just used.

The other thing we’re looking to change is the way that rewards are given at the end of a run. Currently, when you complete a run that upgrades your Keystone by 2 or 3 levels, you’re also given a 2nd or 3rd chest. This is because, when we believed that Keystones would be rare, we didn’t want you to miss out on any of the loot you might have collected from the runs you were “skipping.”

However, because of this, players tend to look for lower-level Keystones that they can easily stomp through, instead of higher-level Keystones that are appropriately challenging for their gear and skill. That, in turn, affects who they’re willing to invite. AOE damage output is preferred over everything else, because the only concern is how quickly you can clear through easy trash packs. And gear requirements tend to outpace what actually drops: if you could find upgrades in a Mythic 6, you’ll have a hard time finding a group, because the Mythic 6 groups are full of players who are capable of clearing 10+ and are just looking for an easy 3-chest.

With that in mind, here’s the changes we’re planning to test:
  • You no longer receive additional chests at the end of a run for completing it quickly.
  • When you finish a Mythic+ dungeon, the chest at the end will contain two items and an appropriate amount of Artifact Power.
  • If you beat the timer, regardless of how quickly, there will be a third item in the chest.
  • Keystones can still upgrade by 2 or 3 steps, so you can quickly get to a difficulty level appropriate for you.


Our overall goal with these changes is to incentivize groups to take on dungeons where they know they’re likely to see upgrades, instead of preferring keys that are far too easy for them. Once the Tomb of Sargeras raid is available on Mythic difficulty, we’ll also increase the maximum rewards from Mythic Keystone runs to level 15.

To clarify: with these changes, the chest at the end of each Mythic+ run would contain a total of 3 items (2 if you don't beat the timer). That's split across the group, not per-person. 

So yes, it's fewer total items than a 3-chest finish in 7.2. However, it's an increase in items for players doing 1-chest clears at an appropriate difficulty level. This is also why I mentioned that the difficulty cap for M+ will be increasing to 15 once Tomb opens on Mythic.

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Meh, I guess that's the end of me getting my fithly casual arse carried in higher(ish) keystones by premades looking for openers.

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So, that will lead in the following behavior: As long as ToS isn't out, we will run +10 keystones because of max. ilvl cap. It's easy to farm gear because you will get 3 items. Beside the more AP from higher keys (dungeon chest and weekly), there is no reason to run them. So, this is what i will be doing:

- Run 1 higher key to get as much as possible AP from weekly chest

- Run +10 keys. Usually they will be in time, often with +3 upgrades. If i dont like the dungeon i get, i just letting deplete the key to lower the difficulty till +10. Run the key and repeate.

It's not that i'm not capable of doing a +13 key in a dungeon i dont like....i just make it easier and the reward will stay the same. After ToS is released, the new cap will be +15 instead of +10.

What do you think about that bevior, it's really the way how it should work?

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in the end, everyone will find the easiest/quickest way to farm AP/gear. Whichever system you choose, there is always an optimal way to balance effort/gain. That will be the equilibrium on which people play. Whether it is running lower lvl keys with overgeared to get 3 chests, or +10keys while being overgeared to get 1 chest with 3 items.

Only difference is there is no longer a true incentive to run a dungeon within the three chest time limit. But as, people still will want to invest as little time as possible, they will still be inviting overgeared people. Not because they need upgrades but because the want to reduce risks.

However I do think people looking for gear upgrades will appreciate this new system more. As it rewards them just as much (gearwise) for finishing just intime as it would finishing it within 3chest time.

Edited by AartS
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All kindsa people saying "no no this is bad b/c...." but I haven't heard any armchair devs give a solution.

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Interest to see how these changes affect people. Keystones no longer depleting is great, imo, that way you are not penalized for disconnections or someone having an off day.

The loot changes are just meh, I personally wasn't doing Keystones for the loot all I want is the AP. I guess if you had really great Titanforging luck then you could gear up really quick by running a group to maximize your loot. Then again why does that matter to Blizzard, oh wait because they think having a long drawn out gearing process is a good idea just like the gating of content.

If someone wants to farm the crap out of something let them don't penalize the rest of the players because of it. Me personally I want all the quests available the moment the patch hits that way I can make my way through it at a normal pace instead of 1 quest chain a week which is bloody stupid especially when it was 1 f'n quest.

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18 hours ago, Shirushi said:

Interest to see how these changes affect people. Keystones no longer depleting is great, imo, that way you are not penalized for disconnections or someone having an off day.

The loot changes are just meh, I personally wasn't doing Keystones for the loot all I want is the AP. I guess if you had really great Titanforging luck then you could gear up really quick by running a group to maximize your loot. Then again why does that matter to Blizzard, oh wait because they think having a long drawn out gearing process is a good idea just like the gating of content.

If someone wants to farm the crap out of something let them don't penalize the rest of the players because of it. Me personally I want all the quests available the moment the patch hits that way I can make my way through it at a normal pace instead of 1 quest chain a week which is bloody stupid especially when it was 1 f'n quest.

As @Allseye said. I think players will intentionally downgrade keystones. What's the point of doing 15+ when rewards are the same? The loot nerf isn't good either. Now you'll have to spend twice as much time (talking about 3-chesting ) to get the same rewards as you would in 7.2. No more carries.

Blizzard LogoBlizzard

However, because of this, players tend to look for lower-level Keystones that they can easily stomp through, instead of higher-level Keystones that are appropriately challenging for their gear and skill. That, in turn, affects who they’re willing to invite. AOE damage output is preferred over everything else, because the only concern is how quickly you can clear through easy trash packs. And gear requirements tend to outpace what actually drops: if you could find upgrades in a Mythic 6, you’ll have a hard time finding a group, because the Mythic 6 groups are full of players who are capable of clearing 10+ and are just looking for an easy 3-chest.

Our overall goal with these changes is to incentivize groups to take on dungeons where they know they’re likely to see upgrades, instead of preferring keys that are far too easy for them

1) So how about removing item levels or Titanforging? Let's assume you find two players in Group Finder. The first one with an ilvl of 880, the second one has 910. Who will you invite to increase the chance to succeed in your run? Pretty self-explanatory.

I get what they're trying to accomplish with this change; the real problem is when you're a lower ilvl player searching for a +5 keystone, ilvl requirements may be absurd, but it doesn't happen all the time and I don't think it will solve the problem of inviting overgeared people to secure 3-chesting/loot.

2) Of course AoE is and will be preferred and this change will have exactly NO impact and besides that what else is the point than stomp through Mythic+ when it is a TIMED EVENT??

3) Why are they forcing players to play the game the way they want? It seems anything that deviates from a certain pattern of "desired gameplay" gets nerfed to the ground (secondary stat, tweaks, Nethershards, Maw AP Farming just to name a few).

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There is a discussion going on MMO-Champion and i read some intresting statements from another point of view. As an exemple, there is a player who states that he's just interested in a high mythic + score (wowprogress). With this changes, it makes it more difficult to get high scores because if a key depletes you can't do the same difficulty again. This will lead in a higher challenge which (he states) hasn't to be a bad thing because every player has the same condition.

Further i read an idea to improve the chance for war- and titanforged items with higher difficulty (> 10). This would probably make players to spend more time in appropriate keystone-levels. So if there would be an improvement of (lets say) 2% per ilvl, there would be a 20% higher chance for a lvl 20 keystone. This would definitely pull me frequently in higher mythic +.

In my opinion blizzard should try to make higher keys much more attractiv rather than trying to implement changes which doesn't seem to solve the issues.

Edited by Allseye
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I found this part disturbing:

"To clarify: with these changes, the chest at the end of each Mythic+ run would contain a total of 3 items (2 if you don't beat the timer). That's split across the group, not per-person. "

One of the best things about the current system is the chests are YOUR chests and you don't have to wrestle with strangers to get gear. This might end up making it actually harder to get a Mythic+ group via the group finder.

Everything else I was fine with. 

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11 hours ago, Corvae said:

I found this part disturbing:

"To clarify: with these changes, the chest at the end of each Mythic+ run would contain a total of 3 items (2 if you don't beat the timer). That's split across the group, not per-person. "

One of the best things about the current system is the chests are YOUR chests and you don't have to wrestle with strangers to get gear. This might end up making it actually harder to get a Mythic+ group via the group finder.

Everything else I was fine with. 

I think there are many people who don't know how the loot-mechanic works today in mythic +. Today, if you do a 3 chest, there are 6 items in total, 2 items per chest. You can check this yourself: do a mythic+ and count how many items are looted at the end. There is NO randomness of the amount of items looted, it's just a randomness how many items are looted by YOU.

As far as i understand, this behavior wont change. They just change the amount of items...basically they nerf it from 6 to 3 items (compared to a 3 chest run today). What does that mean? - It isnt anymore that interesting to do mythic+ as fast as possible, because you just earn 1 item more. 

I think blizzard moves the problem from one side to another. They just make higher AND lower keys less interesting. Ok, we wont run lower keys anymore because we can't get 6 items with brain-afk gaming, we run now just exact that keylvl we need for highest ilvl. Problem solved? - Partially yes, but instead of punishing low-geared players, they punish now the medium/higher geared. Hence, it's a bad solution.

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I think the solution for such issues has always been dungeons award difficulty-appropriate amounts of currency and a weekly dungeon cap. This gives Blizzard a granular way to control the speed at which players get loot, and makes players try and do the most difficult content they can, as opposed to the fastest.

Though, WoW wouldn't be WoW without the loot roulette.

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On 5/6/2017 at 4:15 PM, Oxygen said:

Though, WoW wouldn't be WoW without the loot roulette.

Just as with Diablo 3, RNG = time invested = more subscription time. Doubt this will ever change.

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