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Upcoming Samuro Changes

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Senior Game Designer on Heroes of the Storm said Samuro's talents have a lot of issues right now and his AA build is outperforming other builds. A talent overhaul is coming, but not in the immediate future.

Aiming for the patch after Garrosh? We'll see.

TL;DR

Current Issues & Skill Ceiling

  • AA build outperforms other builds and the multiplicative synergy makes builds inflexible.
  • Samuro currently has a variety of bugs and control issues related to Images that they hope to iron out.
  • Samuro's "E" build is weak, but talent structure needs to change before they're able to buff it.
  • Taking the more difficult talents should be at least a few % more effective than someone taking the AA talents.
  • Blizzard doesn't want there to be a single optimal build in high-level play, but Samuro's an exception.
    • Illusion Master gives him a high skill-ceiling that most players will never realistically reach and the team thinks his talent design isn't doing enough to reward players who strive to reach that ceiling.
    • Other examples of high ceiling-rewarding for plays like Samuro's Illusion Master are
      • Wizened Duelist on Greymane
      • Snipe Master on Nova
      • Locked and Loaded on Tracer
      • Convection on Kael'thas
      • Master's Touch on Medivh
        • The spell feels too mandatory for Medivh and it's something they should improve.
    • The general intent is that there can sometimes be talents that are risky to take and hard touse to their full potential, but players who rise to the challenge and succeed should be rewarded for doing so.
  • On average, the hero's overall power should remain stable.

"E" Build

  • His "E" build was meant to be Samuro's slippery build and when evaluating talent power, they're taking mobility into account. 
  • The build relies heavily on talents that are highly beneficial to his other builds, which prevents them from being easily buffed, which is why talents need to be re-structured to keep everything that's cool about the build now, while tuning the "E" build up to be a more competitive choice.
  • Another thing is that the "E" build was viable when Samuro came out, but its core talents played a big role in inflating his other builds' win rates, so they (and Wind Walk itself) got nerfed.

Stealth Hero Changes

  • Blizzard's "planning" to change Stealth heroes and a shift toward utility is a potential direction, nothing's set in stone though.

(Source)

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Sounds promising, but not holding my breath. A lot of this feels very rough draft, but I'm sort of glad they want to keep some of that high risk, high reward gameplay intact, even if there are some pretty huge gaps between something like Convection and Untouchable, which I hope they address. 

I would hope they would address the way that something like Samuro clones inadvertently feed quests too; quests are something they keep adding in their reworks, and poor Samuro becomes further alienated from the meta every time they do. The statement about utility for stealth is... interesting. Are we talking Zeratul and Void Prison, or Tyrande with healing and debuffing? Getting away from raw burst in less than 2 seconds from hidden is something I approve of either way. 

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4 minutes ago, Plergoth said:

Sounds promising, but not holding my breath. A lot of this feels very rough draft, but I'm sort of glad they want to keep some of that high risk, high reward gameplay intact, even if there are some pretty huge gaps between something like Convection and Untouchable, which I hope they address. 

I would hope they would address the way that something like Samuro clones inadvertently feed quests too; quests are something they keep adding in their reworks, and poor Samuro becomes further alienated from the meta every time they do. The statement about utility for stealth is... interesting. Are we talking Zeratul and Void Prison, or Tyrande with healing and debuffing? Getting away from raw burst in less than 2 seconds from hidden is something I approve of either way. 

The fact that clones feed quests is something I really like, hahaha. It is SO easy to get complete Auriel's Increasing ClarityIncreasing Clarity and Kharazim's InsightInsight by hitting Samuro's Mirror ImageMirror Image or Nova's Holo DecoyHolo Decoy. I really hope they don't change that. It is part of the game, and a risk you take. At least killing clones doesn't count for Quest Talents that revolve around takedowns, nor they drop meat for The Butcher's Fresh MeatFresh Meat.

Regarding the changes to Illusion MasterIllusion Master, maybe Blizzard could make it similar to Xul's reworked Bone PrisonBone Prison, allowing Samuro can redirect the clones toward his target.

Edited by Valhalen

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Just now, Valhalen said:

Clones feeding quests is something I really like, hahaha. It is SO easy to get complete Auriel's Increasing ClarityIncreasing Clarity and Kharazim's InsightInsight. I really hope they don't change that. It is part of the game, and a risk you take. At least killing clones doesn't count for Quest Talents that revolve around takedowns, nor they drop meat for Butcher's Fresh MeatFresh Meat.

Yeah, I know. His clones nearly reset Auriel's Q if she takes the cd talent at 1 too if I remember right, but it's more like stuff that has a huge impact on the way to 10. Arthas for example is already a pain in the ass to deal with for most melee, but Samuro takes it next level by giving me two fully completed quests well before we get our ultimates, and his whole team will suffer over something out of their control. Maybe something like only getting quest credit from one clone at a time, or being able to cancel the clones before they feed things like that. It makes quests that are designed to be impactful once fully completed, but in a way that takes them a certain length of time to complete unless the other team's comp is awful or they are making terrible mistakes, but Samuro's design lends him towards being complete deadweight unless that player is THE BEST Samuro player you ever laid eyes on. 

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7 minutes ago, Plergoth said:

(...) being able to cancel the clones before they feed things like that.

Man, I think this would solve at least 70% of Samuro's problems. Being able to cancel abilities is really good and helps a lot of Heroes, for example The Butcher's Ruthless OnslaughtRuthless Onslaught and Nazeebo's Zombie WallZombie Wall; especially the later, because bad Nazeebo players are really good at trapping their own team mates into Zombie Wall.

Edited by Valhalen

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3 hours ago, Valhalen said:

 because bad Nazeebo players are really good at trapping their own team mates into Zombie Wall.

Oh my god I think this pisses me off more than getting trapped by an enemy Nazeebo, especially when they don't lower it when your the only one in it. 

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46 minutes ago, KingMe said:

Oh my god I think this pisses me off more than getting trapped by an enemy Nazeebo, especially when they don't lower it when your the only one in it. 

In my opinion, Blizzard should include a mini-tutorial for each character in-game. At the Training Menu. This would allow players to actually understand their characters before playing; though this wouldn't guarantee people just ignoring it.

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2 hours ago, KingMe said:

Oh my god I think this pisses me off more than getting trapped by an enemy Nazeebo, especially when they don't lower it when your the only one in it. 

And you're just kind of spinning in circles while you click maniacally as the enemy just strolls away on 1% hp.

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Here's to hoping The Mage will rise from the bottom of the win rate boards and we can say goodbye to out-of-nowhere stealth kills.

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8 hours ago, RoadtoRindokan said:

Changing all stealth heroes feels bad, in any draft you can make sure to get a scout drone.  I hope they are not going to listen to players that dont understand that.

The problem with stealth heroes isnt that you cant counter them but that people pick them as an excuse to not join teamfights

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3 hours ago, Blainie said:

And you're just kind of spinning in circles while you click maniacally as the enemy just strolls away on 1% hp.

Oh you've seen me play? lol

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1 hour ago, Kurosu said:

The problem with stealth heroes isnt that you cant counter them but that people pick them as an excuse to not join teamfights

Is that realy a reason to change them? Because some players think they dont have a place in a teamfight?... using zera and samo here and i manage to sneak my dmg onto a squishy target more often than not in teamfights... changing all stealth heroes would not teach people to show up for the fight.

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Re: clones feeding quests: cancelable clones is the only solution here. Any mechanism where a clone desn't award quest credit just serves to completely nullify the ability (which is otherwise fun and interactive - it feels just as good to "read" the real samuro as it does to trick enemies with a clone)

4 hours ago, Kurosu said:

The problem with stealth heroes isnt that you cant counter them but that people pick them as an excuse to not join teamfights

I mean, that is incidentally true, but also not really the problem, design wise.

when judging the success or failure of a game mechanic, it's important to look at both sides: not just the players experience, but the opposing player experience as well. this is why skillshots work so well: satisfying to land, but almost equally satisfying to juke. Or take the example of hero mobility: high mobility heroes are very fun to play as, but not much fun to play against... unless the mobility is paired with low durability, which allows for a satisfying reward for opponents who manage to catch the high mobility character.

In this way, stealth is a VERY one sided mechanic. While surprising people is often very rewarding as the stealth player (thanks to stealth characters usually significant burst and/or CC potential), it is extremely unrewarding and often frustrating and unfun to play against. Even when countered, stealth offers little to gameplay - vision abilities do little more that stymie a gank temporarily, without yielding any real fun for the revealing opponent - there is not equivalent feeling like "hah, juked that stiches' hook! better luck next time, chump!," more along the lines of, "oh, my drone saw zeratul. move back for a bit i guess..."       

TLDR; perma-stealth is one of the weakest links in hots' design chain, it's fun for the player but awful for everyone else, and it's only a matter of time before they catch on to what riot and even their own sister game overwatch are doing with stealth to keep it healthy.

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12 hours ago, Voltorocks said:

Re: clones feeding quests: cancelable clones is the only solution here. Any mechanism where a clone desn't award quest credit just serves to completely nullify the ability (which is otherwise fun and interactive - it feels just as good to "read" the real samuro as it does to trick enemies with a clone)

I mean, that is incidentally true, but also not really the problem, design wise.

when judging the success or failure of a game mechanic, it's important to look at both sides: not just the players experience, but the opposing player experience as well. this is why skillshots work so well: satisfying to land, but almost equally satisfying to juke. Or take the example of hero mobility: high mobility heroes are very fun to play as, but not much fun to play against... unless the mobility is paired with low durability, which allows for a satisfying reward for opponents who manage to catch the high mobility character.

In this way, stealth is a VERY one sided mechanic. While surprising people is often very rewarding as the stealth player (thanks to stealth characters usually significant burst and/or CC potential), it is extremely unrewarding and often frustrating and unfun to play against. Even when countered, stealth offers little to gameplay - vision abilities do little more that stymie a gank temporarily, without yielding any real fun for the revealing opponent - there is not equivalent feeling like "hah, juked that stiches' hook! better luck next time, chump!," more along the lines of, "oh, my drone saw zeratul. move back for a bit i guess..."       

TLDR; perma-stealth is one of the weakest links in hots' design chain, it's fun for the player but awful for everyone else, and it's only a matter of time before they catch on to what riot and even their own sister game overwatch are doing with stealth to keep it healthy.

When playing against stealth i get a good amount of enjoyment from revealing them because usually right after the team will engage on the now vulnerable stealth hero and burst them down... 

 Having the map awareness to know where they might be, and attention to see them when they are still sneaking around, and then revealing them with a an ability like stitches slam or drain hope, then they are immediately in a bad situation as they normaly want to be the one deciding where to fight...  all of this is enjoyable to me.

The same way you get enjoyment from playing well against a chromie dodging all her shots, it is also enjoyable to shut down a stealth hero from doing what they do.

If there is a problem here, it is because some players dont know how to handle a stealth hero on the enemy team. The answer shouldnt be to change stealthers in general, but to find a way to help players who dont know how to handle them.

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21 hours ago, KingMe said:

Oh you've seen me play? lol

We are one when trapped by Nazeebro. Everyone reacts the same. Everyone wants to face 5 easy AI Nazeebos and pummel them afterwards.

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15 hours ago, Blainie said:

We are one when trapped by Nazeebro. Everyone reacts the same. Everyone wants to face 5 easy AI Nazeebos and pummel them afterwards.

Indeed we do, I often try to use abilities to get out of the trap (in case I have one), just to find myself going nuts in circles. Sometimes I even get trapped with an opponent I was trying to run away from xD.

At least when I pvp I often pick Leoric, so I can escape those sadistics fairly easy :P

 

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On 27/07/2017 at 5:58 AM, MvonTzeskagrad said:

Indeed we do, I often try to use abilities to get out of the trap (in case I have one), just to find myself going nuts in circles. Sometimes I even get trapped with an opponent I was trying to run away from xD.

At least when I pvp I often pick Leoric, so I can escape those sadistics fairly easy :P

I've been known to use my Sonya ultimate to escape, I'll admit.

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