Jump to content
FORUMS
Stan

Spell Variance in Shadowlands

Recommended Posts

46631-fimg-gen.jpg

Blizzard is bringing back spell variance in Shadowlands, which means that most non-periodic abilities will have a small amount of variance (about 5%) on the damage or healing of each individual use.

Blizzard Logo(Source)

In an upcoming build, most non-periodic abilities on all classes will have a small amount of variance on the damage or healing of each individual use.

This was standard behavior in WoW for many years (and has its roots in familiar mechanics from many RPGs), but recently was lost as a side effect of some under-the-hood mechanical changes. We’re restoring this behavior now to bring back the small bit of texture, and avoid the result where using the same spell repeatedly results in exactly the same 3- or 4-digit number every time.

We’re keeping the amount of variance small (5% currently), so that the impact on total performance, over the course of a combat with many events, is negligible.

What do you think about the change? Do you consider 5% negligible? Let us know in the comments!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, that's a misleading question. 5% variance on individual casts is entirely different than 5% difference in performance vs other players. 

I'm fine with it. I like that the dev team is looking at ways to reintroduce RPG elements that have been lost over time. This could add a little flavor without affecting much over time or even over 1 long fight. 

And I say that as one who generally hates rng driven combat. (One reason for my choice of class/spec is to avoid combat driven by random procs as much as possible.)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As someone who always has terrible luck I hate things like this, I don't see what the problem is with having performance actually based on well.... player performance. 

Blizzard (and people) like to throw around the RPG argument whenever something is hard to back up logically but it's important to remember that the main reason RPGs have had variance on things like abilities is because they were traditionally tabletop games where variance came from dice rolls (or other similar means), when transitioning over to computers this was copied over since games had very limited player control, WoW on the other hand has freeform player movement where the dice roll variance should have been replaced with what those rolls are supposed to represent: player input.

You could make the argument that crit chance has the same problem though.

 

Also keep in mind, just like how you are having this 5% variance so is everyone else, theoretically if one player is very lucky and another one is very unlucky the gap between those will be much higher than just 5%

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think something like 1% would be fine, i think the point here is just not to have the exact same number every time.

But having 10% difference with someone who got lucky, when you got unlucky, I think is absolutely terrible.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That's not how math works, though. Over the course of a dungeon or long fight, the chance of a meaningful performance difference is negligible. (Not that I'm for things like twilight dev randomly throwing in an extra 40% or not on specific fights, but that's a whole other level where it has become very problematic.)

This is going to come down, though, to a basic divide between people who want a purely determinative action game and those who value an immersive, complex world in which not everything is built around facilitating competitive performance. The realism of the fantasy, so to speak, is enhanced by the fact that not every cast or blade swipe has identical results. A certain level of unpredictability is inherent in the world. Simulating that isn't necessarily bad. 

Part of the magic of WoW, named right in the title, that makes it different from most action games, is that it is the creation of a whole world to get lost in, not just a series of fights to excel at. I think that the dev team, thanks in part to the success of classic, is recognizing that much of that magic has been lost over time and are exploring ways to find it again.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, KDF said:

rely determinative action game and those who value an immersive, complex world in which not everything is built around facilitating competitive performance. The realism of the fantasy, so to speak, is enhanced by the fact that not every cast or blade swipe has identical results. A certain level of unpredictability is inherent in the world. Simulating that isn't necessarily bad. 

 

That's why in my post I said that they should put something like 1% and not 5%. If the point is just to have different numbers, they don't need to have such a big increase. 5% of dps in a fight if you got really unlucky can be the difference between a win or a lose.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Whyyyyy blizz, stop it please.....  There is no reason to do this now, i want to feel the error when i press a wrong spell not to have it randomly be better than the other time i did it perfectly it just feels so bad, and for the love of god either remove the covenant abilities or make them a talent row

Edited by Zalto
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
48 minutes ago, Mugendai said:

I think something like 1% would be fine, i think the point here is just not to have the exact same number every time.

But having 10% difference with someone who got lucky, when you got unlucky, I think is absolutely terrible.

I don't believe this scenario will be possible.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
45 minutes ago, KDF said:

That's not how math works, though. Over the course of a dungeon or long fight, the chance of a meaningful performance difference is negligible. (Not that I'm for things like twilight dev randomly throwing in an extra 40% or not on specific fights, but that's a whole other level where it has become very problematic.)

This is going to come down, though, to a basic divide between people who want a purely determinative action game and those who value an immersive, complex world in which not everything is built around facilitating competitive performance. The realism of the fantasy, so to speak, is enhanced by the fact that not every cast or blade swipe has identical results. A certain level of unpredictability is inherent in the world. Simulating that isn't necessarily bad. 

Part of the magic of WoW, named right in the title, that makes it different from most action games, is that it is the creation of a whole world to get lost in, not just a series of fights to excel at. I think that the dev team, thanks in part to the success of classic, is recognizing that much of that magic has been lost over time and are exploring ways to find it again.

I could not agree more. I was just saying in another post that it appears some players want a level of homogenization on par with the modern FPS experience, essentially reducing the game down to predetermined load-outs with marginal individual customization.

I don't want to play Battlefield, I want to play World of Warcraft. I want my character to be my avatar in a world where success is measured by survival, not by analytics that exists only to us as the user. Is the damage meter fun? Sure. Do I think it's a metric disproportionately relied on the gauge how successful any one player is in a given encounter? Absolutely.

How much damage did the player take? How many interrupts did they have? How many bad *filtered* damage windows did they execute that got lost in the shuffle because of mandatory down time in the fight?

I am really excited for the return of these RPG elements in Shadowlands.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

36 minutes ago, Badadada said:

Cool, will the new values be generated on a normal or uniform distribution basis?

That's a really good question. I would hope normal, but I wouldn't be surprised if it were linear. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

RPGs are about choices, not randomness in player performance. If I wanted rng to determine whether I win or lose, I would play X-com. It's stuff like this that will make people choose a covenant based on best performance instead of what seems to be the best cosmetic choice and/or interesting spell variance.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

For reference, I ran some sims. (Actually doing the math would take a modicum of effort.)  

My Ny'alotha logs show me doing several hundred attacks (incl. melee) per kill. So, assuming a linear distribution and 5% variance over 500 attacks, I ran a million iterations and measured to overall effect.  

An overall difference in performance from the norm of >1%, a limit some have suggested might be acceptable, occurred exactly ZERO times. A performance difference of >0.5% occurred only 0.0114% of the time.  If the distribution is normal instead of linear, it would be even less.  

Yeah, I don't think this is anything to get upset about.  The effect of overall performance is negligible.  

  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 hours ago, OldGromm said:

RPGs are about choices, not randomness in player performance. If I wanted rng to determine whether I win or lose, I would play X-com. It's stuff like this that will make people choose a covenant based on best performance instead of what seems to be the best cosmetic choice and/or interesting spell variance.

 

So for you, crit chance was just something that happened to other people or?

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

  • Similar Content

    • By Stan
      Your daily source of nightmare fuel is brought to you by an AI-generated art piece. Here's Anduin as the Lich King!
      The following image was generated by Midjourney AI. The goal was to portray Anduin Wrynn as the Lich King. While the armor looks really cool, the face is distorted as is always the case with AI generated images. Anduin's Chains of Domination appearance is definitely more fitting!

      Source: Reddit
    • By Starym
      The recent class tuning arrived in hotfix form, and we also have some Sepulcher and dungeon fixes as well here at the end of the week.
      June 24 (Source)
      Classes
      Druid Guardian [With realm restarts] Mangle and auto attack damage increased by 10%. Developers’ note: Vengeance Demon Hunter and Guardian Druid have fallen behind in damage, particularly in single target. Our intent with these changes is to improve their performance in single-target without unduly impacting AOE environments. Demon Hunter Vengeance [With realm restarts] All damage and healing abilities increased by 3%. [With realm restarts] Fracture and Shear damage increased by 20%. [With realm restarts] Auto attack damage increased by 10%. Developers’ note: Vengeance Demon Hunter and Guardian Druid have fallen behind in damage, particularly in single target. Our intent with these changes is to improve their performance in single-target without unduly impacting AOE environments. Warlock Affliction [With realm restarts] All ability damage increased by 5%. Developers’ note: We’re seeing Affliction falling behind a bit in various content and feel a straight increase to their damage is warranted. Destruction [With realm restarts] (4) Set Bonus: Blasphemy no longer grants Rain of Chaos. [With realm restarts] Chaos Bolt damage increased by 5% in PvE combat. [With realm restarts] Incinerate damage increased by 20%. [With realm restarts] Immolate damage increased by 20%. [With realm restarts] Conflagrate damage increased by 10% in PvE combat. Developers’ note: In order to address Destruction’s excess soul shard generation issues, we’re removing the ability for the Blasphemy to grant Rain of Chaos. This will prevent their shard generation from getting out of control and rein in their AOE output. However, this will have some effect on Destruction’s single-target damage and to help counter the impact we’re increasing the damage of several single-target spells in the Destruction toolkit. This is a big shift so we’ll be monitoring feedback closely and will adjust in the future if needed. Dungeons and Raids
      Sepulcher of the First Ones Halondrus Fixed an issue causing players to be unable to pick up Earthbreaker Charge immediately after recovering from the effects of Podtender (Dreamweaver Soulbind). The Necrotic Wake Fixed an issue causing Destruction Warlock’s Rain of Fire to not proc Rain of Chaos or trigger Blasphemy while fighting on the necropolis. Player versus Player
      Developers’ note: We have been monitoring PvP balance over Season 3 and are making the following adjustments. We look forward to continue to watch how the rest of the PvP season progresses. Druid Balance (2) Set Bonus: Fixed an issue where Celestial Pillar would break players from stealth. Hunter [With realm restarts] Craven Strategem (Runecarving Power) now reduces the cooldown of Feign Death by 5 seconds in PvP combat (was 15 seconds). Developers’ note: The short cooldown of Feign Death from Craven Strategem can be frustrating to play against, especially for classes whose primary damage comes from damage over time effects. We are changing the cooldown reduction from Craven Strategem to address this. Mage [With realm restarts] Flow of Time (Conduit) effectiveness reduced by 50% in PvP combat. [With realm restarts] Netherwind Armor (PvP Talent) now reduces the chance of suffering a critical strike by 10% (was 15%). Developers’ note: Mage survivability has continued to be higher than we would like, so we are targeting some of their defensive tools to address that while keeping the overall feel of Mage gameplay intact. Monk Mistweaver [With realm restarts] Renewing Mist now heals for an additional 25% in PvP combat (was 10%). [With realm restarts] Enveloping Mist now heals for an additional 10% in PvP combat. [With realm restarts] Chrysalis (PvP Talent) now reduces the cooldown of Life Cocoon by 45 seconds (was 30 seconds). Developers’ note: Mistweavers are continuing to have a difficult time responding to burst damage reliably, as they regularly have to open their primary school in order to catch up. Increasing healing over time effects and having Cocoon available more frequently is intended to provide them with better tools to respond to burst damage more reliably. Paladin Retribution [With realm restarts] Templar's Vindication (Conduit) now causes Templar's Verdict to deal an additional 15% damage (was 30%) in PvP combat. [With realm restarts] Shield of Vengeance damage reduced by 40% in PvP combat. Absorption amount unchanged. Developers’ note: Retribution Paladin burst damage has scaled higher than we’d like, outpacing survivability and counterplay. We are looking to address some of those bigger swing moments without affecting their overall toolkit. Priest Holy [With realm restarts] Mana regeneration reduced by 65% in PvP combat (was 60%). [With realm restarts] Holy Word: Chastise now incapacitates enemy players for 3 seconds (was 4 seconds). [With realm restarts] Censure (Talent) now causes Holy Word: Chastise to stun enemy players for 3 seconds (was 4 seconds). [With realm restarts] Ray of Hope (PvP Talent) cooldown is now 90 seconds (was 60 seconds). Developers’ note: Holy Priests have been outperforming other healers, and we are looking to reduce the power of commonly picked talents and mana efficiency to better fit within other spec representation and performance. Shadow [With realm restarts] Shadow Word: Pain damage increased by 15% in PvP combat. [With realm restarts] Vampiric Touch damage increased by 10% in PvP combat. Developers’ note: Shadow Priest has not received as much benefit from its set bonus as other specializations in PvP, so we are increasing parts of their consistent damage to help their overall performance. Rogue Outlaw [With realm restarts] Float Like a Butterfly (PvP Talent) now reduces the cooldown of Evasion and Feint by 0.5 seconds per combo point spent (was 1 second). Developers’ note: The uptime of defensive abilities for Outlaw has been a point of frustration due to less opportunity for enemies to capitalize on gaps of defensive cooldowns. This is intended to address that, while keeping the feel of Outlaw intact. Warlock [With realm restarts] Dark Pact (Talent) now provides an absorb shield based on 300% of health sacrificed in PvP combat (was 250%). [With realm restarts] Essence Drain (PvP Talent) now causes the target to deal 9% less damage to the Warlock per stack. [With realm restarts] Essence Drain (PvP Talent) now stacks up to 4 times (was 5). [With realm restarts] Gateway Mastery (PvP Talent) now reduces the time between how often players can take your Demonic Gateway by 30 seconds (was 15 seconds). Affliction [With realm restarts] Soul Leech grants an absorb shield based on 12% of damage dealt in PvP combat (was 8%). Developers’ note: In 9.2.5 we removed the PvP talent Demon Armor and changed Gladiator’s Echoing Resolve to no longer interact with interrupt effects, which impacted Affliction Warlocks with their spell casts being a single school. With the combination of these changes, Affliction Warlocks’ defensives have been lower than we’d like even after our stamina increase to their base kit, so we are targeting to equip them with better survival tools in PvP. Warrior [With realm restarts] The amount of Mastery granted by Conqueror's Banner (Necrolord Ability) reduced by 33% in PvP combat. Fury [With realm restarts] Crushing Blow (Raging Blow from Reckless Abandon (Talent)) now deals 20% reduced damage in PvP combat. Developers’ note: Overall Fury damage has scaled higher than we’d like in Season 3 especially with their set bonus. We are intending to bring down some of the moments of volatility while still maintaining the high consistent damage that fulfills the fantasy of a Fury Warrior.
    • By Staff
      Blizzard just announced a new batch of class tuning, bot for PvE and especially PvP, coming with the June 28th/29th reset. 
      Tuning (Source)
      With our next scheduled weekly maintenance (June 28 in this region), we intend to make some tuning adjustments to several classes.
      Classes
      Druid Guardian Mangle and auto attack damage increased by 10%. Developers’ note: Vengeance Demon Hunter and Guardian Druid have fallen behind in damage, particularly in single target. Our intent with these changes is to improve their performance in single-target without unduly impacting AOE environments. Demon Hunter Vengeance All damage and healing abilities increased by 3%. Fracture and Shear damage increased by 20%. Auto attack damage increased by 10%. Developers’ note: Vengeance Demon Hunter and Guardian Druid have fallen behind in damage, particularly in single target. Our intent with these changes is to improve their performance in single-target without unduly impacting AOE environments. Warlock Affliction All ability damage increased by 5%. Developers’ note: We’re seeing Affliction falling behind a bit in various content and feel a straight increase to their damage is warranted. Destruction (4) Set Bonus: Blasphemy no longer grants Rain of Chaos. Chaos Bolt damage increased by 5%. Incinerate damage increased by 20%. Immolate damage increased by 20%. Conflagrate damage increased by 10%. Developers’ note: In order to address Destruction’s excess soul shard generation issues, we’re removing the ability for the Blasphemy to grant Rain of Chaos. This will prevent their shard generation from getting out of control and rein in their AOE output. However, this will have some effect on Destruction’s single-target damage and to help counter the impact we’re increasing the damage of several single-target spells in the Destruction toolkit. This is a big shift so we’ll be monitoring feedback closely and will adjust in the future if needed. Player versus Player
      Developers’ note: We have been monitoring PvP balance over Season 3 and are making the following adjustments. We look forward to continue to watch how the rest of the PvP season progresses. Hunter Craven Strategem (Runecarving Power) now reduces the cooldown of Feign Death by 5 seconds in PvP combat (was 15 seconds). Developers’ note: The short cooldown of Feign Death from Craven Strategem can be frustrating to play against, especially for classes whose primary damage comes from damage over time effects. We are changing the cooldown reduction from Craven Strategem to address this. Mage Flow of Time (Conduit) effectiveness reduced by 50% in PvP combat. Netherwind Armor (PvP Talent) now reduces the chance of suffering a critical strike by 10% (was 15%). Developers’ note: Mage survivability has continued to be higher than we would like, so we are targeting some of their defensive tools to address that while keeping the overall feel of Mage gameplay intact. Monk Mistweaver Renewing Mist now heals for an additional 25% in PvP combat (was 10%). Enveloping Mist now heals for an additional 10% in PvP combat. Chrysalis (PvP Talent) now reduces the cooldown of Life Cocoon by 45 seconds (was 30 seconds). Developers’ note: Mistweavers are continuing to have a difficult time responding to burst damage reliably, as they regularly have to open their primary school in order to catch up. Increasing healing over time effects and having Cocoon available more frequently is intended to provide them with better tools to respond to burst damage more reliably. Paladin Retribution Templar’s Vindication (Conduit) now causes Templar’s Verdict to deal an additional 15% damage (was 30%) in PvP combat. Shield of Vengeance damage reduced by 40% in PvP combat. Absorption amount unchanged. Developers’ note: Retribution Paladin burst damage has scaled higher than we’d like, outpacing survivability and counterplay. We are looking to address some of those bigger swing moments without affecting their overall toolkit. Priest Holy Mana regeneration reduced by 65% in PvP combat (was 60%). Holy Word: Chastise now incapacitates enemy players for 3 seconds (was 4 seconds). Censure (Talent) now causes Holy Word: Chastise to stun enemy players for 3 seconds (was 4 seconds). Ray of Hope (PvP Talent) cooldown is now 90 seconds (was 60 seconds). Developers’ note: Holy Priests have been outperforming other healers, and we are looking to reduce the power of commonly picked talents and mana efficiency to better fit within other spec representation and performance. Shadow Shadow Word: Pain damage increased by 15% in PvP combat. Vampiric Touch damage increased by 10% in PvP combat. Developers’ note: Shadow Priest has not received as much benefit from its set bonus as other specializations in PvP, so we are increasing parts of their consistent damage to help their overall performance. Rogue Outlaw Float like a Butterfly (PvP Talent) now reduces the cooldown of Evasion and Feint by 0.5 seconds per combo point spent (was 1 second). Developers’ note: The uptime of defensive abilities for Outlaw has been a point of frustration due to less opportunity for enemies to capitalize on gaps of defensive cooldowns. This is intended to address that, while keeping the feel of Outlaw intact. Warlock Dark Pact (Talent) now provides an absorb shield based on 300% of health sacrificed in PvP combat (was 250%). Essence Drain (PvP Talent) now causes the target to deal 9% less damage to the Warlock per stack. Essence Drain (PvP Talent) now stacks up to 4 times (was 5). Gateway Mastery (PvP Talent) now reduces the time between how often players can take your Demonic Gateway by 30 seconds (was 15 seconds). Affliction Soul Leech grants an absorb shield based on 12% of damage dealt in PvP combat (was 8%). Developers’ note: In 9.2.5 we removed the PvP talent Demon Armor and changed Gladiator’s Echoing Resolve to no longer interact with interrupt effects, which impacted Affliction Warlocks with their spell casts being a single school. With the combination of these changes, Affliction Warlocks’ defensives have been lower than we’d like even after our stamina increase to their base kit, so we are targeting to equip them with better survival tools in PvP. Warrior The amount of Mastery granted by Conqueror’s Banner (Necrolord Ability) reduced by 33% in PvP combat. Fury Crushing Blow (Raging Blow from Reckless Abandon (Talent)) now deals 20% reduced damage in PvP combat. Developers’ note: Overall Fury damage has scaled higher than we’d like in Season 3 especially with their set bonus. We are intending to bring down some of the moments of volatility while still maintaining the high consistent damage that fulfills the fantasy of a Fury Warrior.
    • By Stan
      Scaleface, a reputable leaker from MMO-Champion who accurately (but vaguely) predicted Legion back in 2015, also leaked Dragonflight and Warcraft Rumble ahead of their official reveals. If his Dragonflight leak proves to be 100% true, Dragonflight could release in November 2022.
      Looking back at Scaleface's Dragonflight leak from 2 months ago, the person got everything right and the leak was backed up with enough evidence in the form of images and other files.
      The leak mentions Dragonflight releasing in November 2022 and Wrath Classic in September 2022.

      Back in April, the Red Shirt Guy thought Scaleface might have messed up the release date, but the Dragonflight pre-orders revealed the expansion is, in fact, releasing this year on or before December 31.
      Placeholder for tweet 1516538909974577153 Placeholder for tweet 1516538911463510031 His most recent reply on MMO-C suggests "release dates haven't been touched since April 2022 when the game was announced" and Dragonflight is reportedly "releasing in November (2nd week and last week for now) and WotLK in September".
      "Well, the dates can be changed at any time (at least for 31 of Dec ;p), but in this case they have not been touched since April - and the DF is still in November (2nd week and last week for now) and wotlk for Sept."
      Scaleface on MMO-C Forums
      Do you think Dragonflight will release in November this year? Let us know in the comments!
    • By Stan
      One of the Dragonflight pre-order pets paired with the pet biscuit is nearly double the size of a Dwarf.
      Magical Pet Biscuit is used to grant a pet double their size as long as it remains at its master's side. 
      Drakks, one of the Dragonflight pre-order pets, is really huge when you use the biscuit, as shown by Reddit user Pige0nYT. It's almost twice the size of the Dwarf character.
      Drakks also has an own mount! 

      If you'd like to receive Drakks you must buy the Base Edition of Dragonflight.
      Source: Reddit
×
×
  • Create New...