Survival Hunter Shadowlands

[positiv2 946]

This thread is for comments about our Survival Hunter Shadowlands Guide.

[Guest moondance]

Question - with the new talents - the suggestion is guerrilla tactics for better damage / aoe - but i was curios how does it now stack up if also the above talent  vipers venom is chosen then taken with hydras' bite ??   Is this value better or still guerrilla tactics,  if the extra sting procs added aoe benefit from  viper venom and hydra bite do they stack or work in unison so get the best of both talent 15 and 25 rank choices working for that skill ??

[Mohawkward 1]

Is the covenant suggestion really accurate?

It is stated that the Venthyrs are bad even in a single target scenario. Yet, a 2 minutes test on the dummy shows me the Flayed Shot throughput averaging at 20k where the Wild Spirits is only doing 5k ish.

Are you sure you included the Kill Shot proc damage into it?

[Guest Ravanche]

Error in the FAQ. Says core hounds are among best Ferocity pets. They are Exotic, and only usable by Beast Mastery hunters.

[Guest Thyllar]

The guide states that casting wildfire bomb should be cast 6 seconds after the first one to not waste the DoT, but with wildfire infusion you get two defferent DoTs on a target so I'd like to know if it actually matters then.

[Azortharion 56]

15 hours ago, Guest Thyllar said:

The guide states that casting wildfire bomb should be cast 6 seconds after the first one to not waste the DoT, but with wildfire infusion you get two defferent DoTs on a target so I'd like to know if it actually matters then.

It does not matter for Wildfire Infusion and I will update the guide accordingly.

 

 

On 12/2/2020 at 11:14 AM, Guest Ravanche said:

Error in the FAQ. Says core hounds are among best Ferocity pets. They are Exotic, and only usable by Beast Mastery hunters.

Will also fix this and offer a different suggestion.

[Guest Manabear]

Whats with Wildfire Clusterbomb Legendary? Can't see it in the categorie

[Azortharion 56]

On 12/31/2020 at 5:52 PM, Guest Manabear said:

Whats with Wildfire Clusterbomb Legendary? Can't see it in the categorie

Hey, we talk about it right here in the Legendaries section:

[Guest Turithian]

With the 9.05 buffs to latent poison (Latent Poison Injectors damage increased by 15%) will it become much more viable? 

[Guest moggybaer]

Hello,  the new 9.1 venthyr legendary is missing in the list.  Could you at it and share your thoughts? 

It seems to make venthyr viable (for M+) with the addition of this aoe component...

Greetings

[Azortharion 56]

41 minutes ago, Guest moggybaer said:

Hello,  the new 9.1 venthyr legendary is missing in the list.  Could you at it and share your thoughts? 

It seems to make venthyr viable (for M+) with the addition of this aoe component...

Greetings

Hey, thanks for your feedback! I've submitted it now, should be up very soon.

[Guest Lynsi]

There should prob be a Note added in the Guide regarding the Cloak from Sylvanas as it doesnt seem to drop if your Loot Spec is SV (going off the Adventure Guide ingame)

[Guest Lynsi]

9 hours ago, Guest Lynsi said:

There should prob be a Note added in the Guide regarding the Cloak from Sylvanas as it doesnt seem to drop if your Loot Spec is SV (going off the Adventure Guide ingame)

nvm seems after the Patch it seems to be avaible for Survival Lootspec aswell

[Guest Justkali]

hi, what is making flanking strike viable option for m+ bcs in sims tip of the spear has bigger dps ?

[Azortharion 56]

14 hours ago, Guest Justkali said:

hi, what is making flanking strike viable option for m+ bcs in sims tip of the spear has bigger dps ?

Hey. Mythic+ is a tricky thing to sim but even so, in pretty much all heavy AoE sims with downtime, Flanking Strike beats Tip pretty significantly. Keep in mind that Flanking Strike's CD recovers between packs meaning that you'll have it up for the beginning of nearly every pack.

[Guest Foramirr]

The BiS dungeon weapon for Suvival is an int staff, instead of an agi weapon. might want to fix that.

[Guest Tyger Dave]

Survival Hunter - Weakauras

3.0 - Frenzy and Barbed Shot tracker not relevant.

[Azortharion 56]

On 7/10/2021 at 6:10 PM, Guest Foramirr said:

The BiS dungeon weapon for Suvival is an int staff, instead of an agi weapon. might want to fix that.

 

8 hours ago, Guest Tyger Dave said:

Survival Hunter - Weakauras

3.0 - Frenzy and Barbed Shot tracker not relevant.

Submitted fixes for both, thanks!

[Guest Piratus]

In section 3 ("Summary of the Best Covenants, Soulbinds, and Conduits") Dreamweaver's soulbind calculator is incomplete

[Azortharion 56]

On 8/15/2021 at 5:23 AM, Guest Piratus said:

In section 3 ("Summary of the Best Covenants, Soulbinds, and Conduits") Dreamweaver's soulbind calculator is incomplete

Thank you! Will fix.

[Rok 0]

I tried all covenants on my Survival Hunter, just for the cosmetic gear sets, and as a result, got to test all covenants in very similar situations and with the same gear iLvls. My findings were shocking in that the Necrolord covenant gave me up to 50% extra DPS in Mythic+ dungeons sometimes! And fortunately, a Survival Hunter guildie of mine had a similar experience, where we played the same Mythic+ with him as Kyrian because "that's what Wowhead and Icy Veins told him to use in Mythic+," and he asked about my Explosive Shot after the run because it was doing my highest damage percentage, so I explained its relationship to the Necrolord Hunter covenant ability. A while later, he also switched from Kyrian to Necrolord, and I saw with my own eyes on the Details! addon his DPS increasing by about 30% with nothing changing for him other than switching from Kyrian to Necrolord. 

Necrolord is described as the weakest covenant in this guide, and yet it outdamaged both Kyrian and Night Fae by shocking margins in my and my guildie's experience. Of course, we are not Mythic raiders or geared for Mythic raids, but then again, is Icy Veins writing these guides for Mythic raiders? Of course not, Mythic raiders can probably write their own guides and receive more than enough solid advice and coaching from their own guildies. It is people like us, who don't have access to information about optimal class setups from anywhere else, who need these guides the most.

And I can't say that I'm happy with these findings, because I'm not a theorycrafter or a guide writer, and I like to think that the guide writers of Icy Veins, Wowhead, and other sources know much more about the game its various mechanics than me, so I like to feel that I can trust what I read on those guides. However, this discovery is making me question this. And the most annoying point for me is that I don't have time to do this testing with every class I'd want to try in the future just to make sure that what I read on the guides is accurate.

And I understand that some of the expected responses to this comment are going to be along the lines of, "Maybe you were not playing the Kyrian and Night Fae covenant abilities correctly? Maybe your setup or parties weren't working well with those abilities?" Yes, maybe, and yes, the tank had to drag the mobs outside the Kyrian and Night Fae circles sometimes, wasting the cooldown for me. Sometimes tanks don't even seem to care about trying to keep mobs inside those circles, at least in PuGs. However, all of this shouldn't mean that my DPS goes down by up to 33% sometimes in an M+! In other words, it shouldn't mean that I can raise my DPS by up to 50% if I switch from Kyrian or Night Fae to Necrolord as a Survival Hunter running M+. It also sure as hell shouldn't mean that our community experts make a blanket statement like that about Necrolord being the weakest covenant and that it shouldn't be used in any setting! Something is seriously wrong here, and I have a strong feeling that it is wrong with the community experts' view, not the skills, gear levels, or use of end-users like myself and my guildie, for example.

Edited June 4 by Rok
Typos.

[Azortharion 56]

39 minutes ago, Rok said:

I tried all covenants on my Survival Hunter, just for the cosmetic gear sets, and as a result, got to test all covenants in very similar situations and with the same gear iLvls. My findings were shocking in that the Necrolord covenant gave me up to 50% extra DPS in Mythic+ dungeons sometimes! And fortunately, a Survival Hunter guildie of mine had a similar experience, where we played the same Mythic+ with him as Kyrian because "that's what Wowhead and Icy Veins told him to use in Mythic+," and he asked about my Explosive Shot after the run because it was doing my highest damage percentage, so I explained its relationship to the Necrolord Hunter covenant ability. A while later, he also switched from Kyrian to Necrolord, and I saw with my own eyes on the Details! addon his DPS increasing by about 30% with nothing changing for him other than switching from Kyrian to Necrolord. 

Necrolord is described as the weakest covenant in this guide, and yet it outdamaged both Kyrian and Night Fae by shocking margins in my and my guildie's experience. Of course, we are not Mythic raiders or geared for Mythic raids, but then again, is Icy Veins writing these guides for Mythic raiders? Of course not, Mythic raiders can probably write their own guides and receive more than enough solid advice and coaching from their own guildies. It is people like us, who don't have access to information about optimal class setups from anywhere else, who need these guides the most.

And I can't say that I'm happy with these findings, because I'm not a theorycrafter or a guide writer, and I like to think that the guide writers of Icy Veins, Wowhead, and other sources know much more about the game its various mechanics than me, so I like to feel that I can trust what I read on those guides. However, this discovery is making me question this. And the most annoying point for me is that I don't have time to do this testing with every class I'd want to try in the future just to make sure that what I read on the guides is accurate.

And I understand that some of the expected responses to this comment are going to be along the lines of, "Maybe you were not playing the Kyrian and Night Fae covenant abilities correctly? Maybe your setup or parties weren't working well with those abilities?" Yes, maybe, and yes, the tank had to drag the mobs outside the Kyrian and Night Fae circles sometimes, wasting the cooldown for me. Sometimes tanks don't even seem to care about trying to keep mobs inside those circles, at least in PuGs. However, all of this shouldn't mean that my DPS goes down by up to 33% sometimes in an M+! In other words, it shouldn't mean that I can raise my DPS by up to 50% if I switch from Kyrian or Night Fae to Necrolord as a Survival Hunter running M+. It also sure as hell shouldn't mean that our community experts make a blanket statement like that about Necrolord being the weakest covenant and that it shouldn't be used in any setting! Something is seriously wrong here, and I have a strong feeling that it is wrong with the community experts' view, not the skills, gear levels, or use of end-users like myself and my guildie, for example.

Hey. Necrolord is clearly worse than Kyrian and Night Fae for Mythic+. Simulations and real-world data prove this. I am glad you are having success with Necrolord, however, and if you enjoy playing it and it works for you, then I suggest you keep doing it!

But from a purely objective perspective, Necrolord does not hold a candle to the two other options. You mention getting 50% more DPS, but that is impossible, since the Covenant + Soulbind combined do not account for that much by themselves. You wouldn't even lose 50% if you could somehow run with no Covenant and Soulbind. So I think that's an exaggeration.

The guide is written and targeted at anyone who wants to master Hunter. The optimal Covenant/Soulbind is the same for Heroic raiding as it is for Mythic raiding. And Mythic+20 as well as Mythic+30.

It's entirely possible that you are not playing Kyrian/Night Fae correctly, or that your tank is griefing those effects. This will naturally change the math and data, but in any competitive environment, mobs leaving your circle is exceptionally rare.

There is simply no relevant situation where Necrolord is worth using, in a purely objective sense. Of course, it is a game and you can play it any way you like.

If you do not find simulations and such arguments convincing, I invite you to look at the Covenants used by the top Survival Hunters in Mythic+ on this page. Survival Hunter World Mythic+ Spec Rankings (raider.io)