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Damien

[Archived] Subtlety Rogue 5.4

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Have 1.4 dagger listed, only 1.8s now.

"you can boost your DPS by equipping a 2.6 Agility Axe or Mace as your Main-hand weapon. Since you are unable to use Posted ImageAmbush and Posted ImageBackstab, there is no reason to stick with a Main-hand dagger." is confusing...

Unable to use ambush with a 2.6 or..? Cause you can use Ambush with any weapon. Seems like the loss of Backstab (Only ability still requiring daggers) in the rotation would be a loss of dps wouldn't it?

Edited by Mikkael053

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Have 1.4 dagger listed, only 1.8s now.

"you can boost your DPS by equipping a 2.6 Agility Axe or Mace as your Main-hand weapon. Since you are unable to use Posted ImageAmbush and Posted ImageBackstab, there is no reason to stick with a Main-hand dagger." is confusing...

Unable to use ambush with a 2.6 or..? Cause you can use Ambush with any weapon. Seems like the loss of Backstab (Only ability still requiring daggers) in the rotation would be a loss of dps wouldn't it?

You are right on both counts and we fixed the guides accordingly.

When updating our guides to 5.0.4, we tried to keep as much of the old versions as possible, except of course when it longer applied. As you can imagine, a number of small mistakes still managed to find their way to the final versions of our guides :)

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From Single Target Rotation:

"When you cannot attack your target from behind, then you cannot use Posted ImageBackstab and Posted ImageHemorrhage because your primary Combo Point builder."

I have problems understanding the above.

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From Single Target Rotation:

"When you cannot attack your target from behind, then you cannot use Posted ImageBackstab and Posted ImageHemorrhage because your primary Combo Point builder."

I have problems understanding the above.

It was a typo, thank you for spotting it :)

I meant to write becomes and not because.

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from the Subtlety Rogue DPS Statistics Priority and Reforging (WoW MoP 5.0.4)section...

Mastery Rating increases the damage of your Finishing Moves as well as the effect of Posted ImageSlice and Dice, through Posted ImageMastery: Executioner. This statistic.

starts to explain abt the statistic and stops there. does it increase the duration of slice and dice, or increase the melee attack speed?

and also, in the expertise section, the races aren't very consistent among quite a few class/spec guides. for example, combat rogue shows dwarves, gnomes, humans and orcs (with gnomes dual wielding swords), but for assassination and subtlety shows only gnomes dual wielding daggers. the prot warrior guide could also be updated to include gnomes wielding a one-hand sword.

guess it's just minor mistakes that comes with having to update so many guides when a world changing patch hits.

Edited by brodover

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With the 5.0.4 changes, is it still necessary to keep the Hemo debuff up on your Target?

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from the Subtlety Rogue DPS Statistics Priority and Reforging (WoW MoP 5.0.4)section...

starts to explain abt the statistic and stops there. does it increase the duration of slice and dice, or increase the melee attack speed?

and also, in the expertise section, the races aren't very consistent among quite a few class/spec guides. for example, combat rogue shows dwarves, gnomes, humans and orcs (with gnomes dual wielding swords), but for assassination and subtlety shows only gnomes dual wielding daggers. the prot warrior guide could also be updated to include gnomes wielding a one-hand sword.

guess it's just minor mistakes that comes with having to update so many guides when a world changing patch hits.

Subtlety's mastery increases the amount of attack speed gained by Slice and Dice, it doesn't change the duration.

Assassination and Subtlety will always be using daggers, so mentioning expertise from other weapons wouldn't make much sense, I assume that's why they left it out.

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Thanks for the guide, helped me a lot. Just a tiny bit of nitpicking:

5.9. Bosses That Cannot Be Attacked From Behind

You state that you can't trigger expose weakness on bosses that can't be attacked from behind. I've found a way around this problem: You can use garrote to activate it. Garrote does NOT require you to be behind your victim anymore since patch 5.0.4. True story.

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5.9. Bosses That Cannot Be Attacked From Behind

Pro tip: You can activate expose weakness on a boss that can't be attacked from behind by using garrote. Garrote does NOT require you to be behind your victim anymore (patch 5.0.4).

Use garrote at the start of the battle and use Vanish or Shadow Dance to re-appy garrote (and therefore expose weakness).True story.

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With the 5.0.4 changes, is it still necessary to keep the Hemo debuff up on your Target?

If you want max dps, yes.

Running simcraft with their BiS list, dropping Hemo is a roughly 638 dps loss. (out of 65,517 dps).

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Thank you for this guide very clear and precise.

In single-target, the difference between Eviscerate and Crimson-tempest is less than 50%. (For the same energy cost).

From 2 targets, now it seems more interesting to replace some Eviscerate by Crimson-tempest. Provided you do not overwrite the debuff bleeding. (As there is no 7 targets and we do not switch for AoE cycle)

Merci pour ce guide très clair et précis.

En mono-cible, la différence entre une Eviscération et une Tempête-écarlate est de moins de 50%.

A partir de 2 cibles, actuellement, il semble donc plus intéressant de remplacer certaines Eviscérations par Tempête-écarlate. A condition de ne pas écraser le debuff saignement. (Tant qu'il n'y a pas 7 cibles et que l'on ne passe pas en cycle AoE)

I am French and I see that Damien lives in Paris and as I do not trust 100% in my translation, I prefer to add my comment in two languages. Posted Image

Thanks.

Edited by Titi

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I dont do simcraft, but from personal experience, ive noticed that (assuming subterfuge is taken) opening with a garrote+premed--> ambush-->SnD works best. I have been able to squeeze in an extra ambush occasionaly if my energy allows it, which leads me to thinking that premed, SnD before the fight for an energetic recovery proc would sure up the chances of getting an extra ambush in before stealth breaks. To clarify, this opener would look something like... [premed, SnD] garrote-->ambush-->ambush. Also, (i just dinged 90 today and have been messing around with anticipation) but it seems this second opener works better as the extra combo point gets stored as an anticipation charge Posted Image again, I dont use any form of simulator, just my trusty dps meter!

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It looks as if I've been neglecting this thread for far too long and I apologize, there's just been so much to do...

from the Subtlety Rogue DPS Statistics Priority and Reforging (WoW MoP 5.0.4)section...

starts to explain abt the statistic and stops there. does it increase the duration of slice and dice, or increase the melee attack speed?

and also, in the expertise section, the races aren't very consistent among quite a few class/spec guides. for example, combat rogue shows dwarves, gnomes, humans and orcs (with gnomes dual wielding swords), but for assassination and subtlety shows only gnomes dual wielding daggers. the prot warrior guide could also be updated to include gnomes wielding a one-hand sword.

guess it's just minor mistakes that comes with having to update so many guides when a world changing patch hits.

I've improved the explanation for Mastery Rating.

Regarding expertise, it is as Toga explained. Assassination and Subtlety Rogues will always dual wield daggers, so there is no reason to mention anything else than Gnomes. Combat Rogues will never dual wield Daggers, so I just added a mention for the Sword(MH)/Dagger(OH) combo. For Protection Warriors, this was a mistake and I fixed it by adding a mention of Gnomes.

With the 5.0.4 changes, is it still necessary to keep the Hemo debuff up on your Target?

As Toga replied (once again, thank you :P), it is a DPS loss not to use Hemorrhage. Not a big DPS loss (about 1%), but a DPS loss nonetheless.

5.9. Bosses That Cannot Be Attacked From Behind

Pro tip: You can activate expose weakness on a boss that can't be attacked from behind by using garrote. Garrote does NOT require you to be behind your victim anymore (patch 5.0.4).

Use garrote at the start of the battle and use Vanish or Shadow Dance to re-appy garrote (and therefore expose weakness).True story.

Thanks for the tip, I've included it in the guide.

Thank you for this guide very clear and precise.

In single-target, the difference between Eviscerate and Crimson-tempest is less than 50%. (For the same energy cost).

From 2 targets, now it seems more interesting to replace some Eviscerate by Crimson-tempest. Provided you do not overwrite the debuff bleeding. (As there is no 7 targets and we do not switch for AoE cycle)

Merci pour ce guide très clair et précis.

En mono-cible, la différence entre une Eviscération et une Tempête-écarlate est de moins de 50%.

A partir de 2 cibles, actuellement, il semble donc plus intéressant de remplacer certaines Eviscérations par Tempête-écarlate. A condition de ne pas écraser le debuff saignement. (Tant qu'il n'y a pas 7 cibles et que l'on ne passe pas en cycle AoE)

I am French and I see that Damien lives in Paris and as I do not trust 100% in my translation, I prefer to add my comment in two languages. Posted Image

Thanks.

The English was fine, don't worry. I'll reply in English as well, so that everyone understands.

In single-target, the difference between Eviscerate and Crimson Tempest is a lot higher than 50%. For example, at 20k Attack Power, you get 26.3k damage with Eviscerate and only 6.8k damage with Crimson Tempest. At 40k Attack Power (which is what you get at heroic gear levels), you get 46k damage with Eviscerate and 10k damage with Crimson Tempest.

In any case, regardless of the damage of Crimson Tempest, your suggestion to keep the bleed effect from Crimson Tempest applied on enemies, even in the case of a single-target rotation, is valid. So I added a new paragraph to explain that when there are 4, 5, or 6 enemies, Eviscerate should sometimes be replaced with Crimson Tempest.

I dont do simcraft, but from personal experience, ive noticed that (assuming subterfuge is taken) opening with a garrote+premed--> ambush-->SnD works best. I have been able to squeeze in an extra ambush occasionaly if my energy allows it, which leads me to thinking that premed, SnD before the fight for an energetic recovery proc would sure up the chances of getting an extra ambush in before stealth breaks. To clarify, this opener would look something like... [premed, SnD] garrote-->ambush-->ambush. Also, (i just dinged 90 today and have been messing around with anticipation) but it seems this second opener works better as the extra combo point gets stored as an anticipation charge Posted Image again, I dont use any form of simulator, just my trusty dps meter!

I added the second rotation you gave as the #1 variation in the guide. I found it very well thought out ;)

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Slightly confused on the order of things. With the 2nd ambush in play, I'm assuming you are with a group? Otherwise, how are you able to put in 2 ambush as you have to stay behind the target to use ambush. I have been using the premed/SnD ->Ambush -> garrote exclusively as since I gave up the gear giving me the extra 10 energy it has been hard to get much more than that. Am I missing something?

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Almost all material presented in these guides are assuming that you are part of a 5+ man group. With that in mind, rear / flank positioning is always possible and the descriptions are written thus. Solo questing and/or pvp game play is quite different in that the use of cc and mobility is of greater importance and has a less predictable rotation for maximizing damage.

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Slightly confused on the order of things. With the 2nd ambush in play, I'm assuming you are with a group? Otherwise, how are you able to put in 2 ambush as you have to stay behind the target to use ambush. I have been using the premed/SnD ->Ambush -> garrote exclusively as since I gave up the gear giving me the extra 10 energy it has been hard to get much more than that. Am I missing something?

Almost all material presented in these guides are assuming that you are part of a 5+ man group. With that in mind, rear / flank positioning is always possible and the descriptions are written thus. Solo questing and/or pvp game play is quite different in that the use of cc and mobility is of greater importance and has a less predictable rotation for maximizing damage.

All our class guides are written with Raiding in mind. Most of what we present also applies to dungeons, but it was never our aim to deliver class guides for doing solo content.

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Is there a reference for DPS with different ilvl gear? Something to the effect of 450 = ?, 463 = ?, and upgrades?

I have been able to reference my DPS but I have no idea if it is in the range I need it to be.

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Is there a reference for DPS with different ilvl gear? Something to the effect of 450 = ?, 463 = ?, and upgrades?

I have been able to reference my DPS but I have no idea if it is in the range I need it to be.

Did you try downloading simulationcraft and importing your character in it?

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I have not, but I will now. I used Shadowcraft, but there isn't a reference - meaning nothing stating you should be at "this" vs. current.

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5.2. Poisons

"This chance is fixed, which means that slower weapons will have a smaller chance of applying your Poison effects than faster weapons."

You mean slower weapons have a a bigger chance of applying your poison.

5.7. Opening Sequence

Variation 3:

Between step 3 and 4 you can use Posted ImageHemorrhage get 5 combo point and always use Posted ImageRupture with 5 combo points, and get max damage from energy spend beacuse reaplying a buff or dibuff cost energy and with 4 combo points you have 20% to NOT get 25 energy.

You're welcome Posted Image

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I was looking at the major glyphs for both subtlety and assassination spec and I noticed there was no mention of Glyph of Deadly Momentum which reapplies your Slice and Dice to it's original duration upon killing an enemy thatt gives honor or experience. Is that not as useful as it seems to me ?

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I was looking at the major glyphs for both subtlety and assassination spec and I noticed there was no mention of Glyph of Deadly Momentum which reapplies your Slice and Dice to it's original duration upon killing an enemy thatt gives honor or experience. Is that not as useful as it seems to me ?

This is not very useful in raids, as you need to be the one dealing the killing blow to the add. Also, in most AoE situations, you don't need to maintain Slice and Dice.

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