Sign in to follow this  
Followers 0
Damien

[Archived] Subtlety Rogue 5.4

61 posts in this topic

This thread is for comments about our Subtlety Rogue guide.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Have 1.4 dagger listed, only 1.8s now.

"you can boost your DPS by equipping a 2.6 Agility Axe or Mace as your Main-hand weapon. Since you are unable to use Posted ImageAmbush and Posted ImageBackstab, there is no reason to stick with a Main-hand dagger." is confusing...

Unable to use ambush with a 2.6 or..? Cause you can use Ambush with any weapon. Seems like the loss of Backstab (Only ability still requiring daggers) in the rotation would be a loss of dps wouldn't it?

Edited by Mikkael053

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Have 1.4 dagger listed, only 1.8s now.

"you can boost your DPS by equipping a 2.6 Agility Axe or Mace as your Main-hand weapon. Since you are unable to use Posted ImageAmbush and Posted ImageBackstab, there is no reason to stick with a Main-hand dagger." is confusing...

Unable to use ambush with a 2.6 or..? Cause you can use Ambush with any weapon. Seems like the loss of Backstab (Only ability still requiring daggers) in the rotation would be a loss of dps wouldn't it?

You are right on both counts and we fixed the guides accordingly.

When updating our guides to 5.0.4, we tried to keep as much of the old versions as possible, except of course when it longer applied. As you can imagine, a number of small mistakes still managed to find their way to the final versions of our guides :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

From Single Target Rotation:

"When you cannot attack your target from behind, then you cannot use Posted ImageBackstab and Posted ImageHemorrhage because your primary Combo Point builder."

I have problems understanding the above.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

From Single Target Rotation:

"When you cannot attack your target from behind, then you cannot use Posted ImageBackstab and Posted ImageHemorrhage because your primary Combo Point builder."

I have problems understanding the above.

It was a typo, thank you for spotting it :)

I meant to write becomes and not because.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

from the Subtlety Rogue DPS Statistics Priority and Reforging (WoW MoP 5.0.4)section...

Mastery Rating increases the damage of your Finishing Moves as well as the effect of Posted ImageSlice and Dice, through Posted ImageMastery: Executioner. This statistic.

starts to explain abt the statistic and stops there. does it increase the duration of slice and dice, or increase the melee attack speed?

and also, in the expertise section, the races aren't very consistent among quite a few class/spec guides. for example, combat rogue shows dwarves, gnomes, humans and orcs (with gnomes dual wielding swords), but for assassination and subtlety shows only gnomes dual wielding daggers. the prot warrior guide could also be updated to include gnomes wielding a one-hand sword.

guess it's just minor mistakes that comes with having to update so many guides when a world changing patch hits.

Edited by brodover

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

With the 5.0.4 changes, is it still necessary to keep the Hemo debuff up on your Target?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

from the Subtlety Rogue DPS Statistics Priority and Reforging (WoW MoP 5.0.4)section...

starts to explain abt the statistic and stops there. does it increase the duration of slice and dice, or increase the melee attack speed?

and also, in the expertise section, the races aren't very consistent among quite a few class/spec guides. for example, combat rogue shows dwarves, gnomes, humans and orcs (with gnomes dual wielding swords), but for assassination and subtlety shows only gnomes dual wielding daggers. the prot warrior guide could also be updated to include gnomes wielding a one-hand sword.

guess it's just minor mistakes that comes with having to update so many guides when a world changing patch hits.

Subtlety's mastery increases the amount of attack speed gained by Slice and Dice, it doesn't change the duration.

Assassination and Subtlety will always be using daggers, so mentioning expertise from other weapons wouldn't make much sense, I assume that's why they left it out.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks for the guide, helped me a lot. Just a tiny bit of nitpicking:

5.9. Bosses That Cannot Be Attacked From Behind

You state that you can't trigger expose weakness on bosses that can't be attacked from behind. I've found a way around this problem: You can use garrote to activate it. Garrote does NOT require you to be behind your victim anymore since patch 5.0.4. True story.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

5.9. Bosses That Cannot Be Attacked From Behind

Pro tip: You can activate expose weakness on a boss that can't be attacked from behind by using garrote. Garrote does NOT require you to be behind your victim anymore (patch 5.0.4).

Use garrote at the start of the battle and use Vanish or Shadow Dance to re-appy garrote (and therefore expose weakness).True story.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

With the 5.0.4 changes, is it still necessary to keep the Hemo debuff up on your Target?

If you want max dps, yes.

Running simcraft with their BiS list, dropping Hemo is a roughly 638 dps loss. (out of 65,517 dps).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thank you for this guide very clear and precise.

In single-target, the difference between Eviscerate and Crimson-tempest is less than 50%. (For the same energy cost).

From 2 targets, now it seems more interesting to replace some Eviscerate by Crimson-tempest. Provided you do not overwrite the debuff bleeding. (As there is no 7 targets and we do not switch for AoE cycle)

Merci pour ce guide très clair et précis.

En mono-cible, la différence entre une Eviscération et une Tempête-écarlate est de moins de 50%.

A partir de 2 cibles, actuellement, il semble donc plus intéressant de remplacer certaines Eviscérations par Tempête-écarlate. A condition de ne pas écraser le debuff saignement. (Tant qu'il n'y a pas 7 cibles et que l'on ne passe pas en cycle AoE)

I am French and I see that Damien lives in Paris and as I do not trust 100% in my translation, I prefer to add my comment in two languages. Posted Image

Thanks.

Edited by Titi

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I dont do simcraft, but from personal experience, ive noticed that (assuming subterfuge is taken) opening with a garrote+premed--> ambush-->SnD works best. I have been able to squeeze in an extra ambush occasionaly if my energy allows it, which leads me to thinking that premed, SnD before the fight for an energetic recovery proc would sure up the chances of getting an extra ambush in before stealth breaks. To clarify, this opener would look something like... [premed, SnD] garrote-->ambush-->ambush. Also, (i just dinged 90 today and have been messing around with anticipation) but it seems this second opener works better as the extra combo point gets stored as an anticipation charge Posted Image again, I dont use any form of simulator, just my trusty dps meter!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It looks as if I've been neglecting this thread for far too long and I apologize, there's just been so much to do...

from the Subtlety Rogue DPS Statistics Priority and Reforging (WoW MoP 5.0.4)section...

starts to explain abt the statistic and stops there. does it increase the duration of slice and dice, or increase the melee attack speed?

and also, in the expertise section, the races aren't very consistent among quite a few class/spec guides. for example, combat rogue shows dwarves, gnomes, humans and orcs (with gnomes dual wielding swords), but for assassination and subtlety shows only gnomes dual wielding daggers. the prot warrior guide could also be updated to include gnomes wielding a one-hand sword.

guess it's just minor mistakes that comes with having to update so many guides when a world changing patch hits.

I've improved the explanation for Mastery Rating.

Regarding expertise, it is as Toga explained. Assassination and Subtlety Rogues will always dual wield daggers, so there is no reason to mention anything else than Gnomes. Combat Rogues will never dual wield Daggers, so I just added a mention for the Sword(MH)/Dagger(OH) combo. For Protection Warriors, this was a mistake and I fixed it by adding a mention of Gnomes.

With the 5.0.4 changes, is it still necessary to keep the Hemo debuff up on your Target?

As Toga replied (once again, thank you :P), it is a DPS loss not to use Hemorrhage. Not a big DPS loss (about 1%), but a DPS loss nonetheless.

5.9. Bosses That Cannot Be Attacked From Behind

Pro tip: You can activate expose weakness on a boss that can't be attacked from behind by using garrote. Garrote does NOT require you to be behind your victim anymore (patch 5.0.4).

Use garrote at the start of the battle and use Vanish or Shadow Dance to re-appy garrote (and therefore expose weakness).True story.

Thanks for the tip, I've included it in the guide.

Thank you for this guide very clear and precise.

In single-target, the difference between Eviscerate and Crimson-tempest is less than 50%. (For the same energy cost).

From 2 targets, now it seems more interesting to replace some Eviscerate by Crimson-tempest. Provided you do not overwrite the debuff bleeding. (As there is no 7 targets and we do not switch for AoE cycle)

Merci pour ce guide très clair et précis.

En mono-cible, la différence entre une Eviscération et une Tempête-écarlate est de moins de 50%.

A partir de 2 cibles, actuellement, il semble donc plus intéressant de remplacer certaines Eviscérations par Tempête-écarlate. A condition de ne pas écraser le debuff saignement. (Tant qu'il n'y a pas 7 cibles et que l'on ne passe pas en cycle AoE)

I am French and I see that Damien lives in Paris and as I do not trust 100% in my translation, I prefer to add my comment in two languages. Posted Image

Thanks.

The English was fine, don't worry. I'll reply in English as well, so that everyone understands.

In single-target, the difference between Eviscerate and Crimson Tempest is a lot higher than 50%. For example, at 20k Attack Power, you get 26.3k damage with Eviscerate and only 6.8k damage with Crimson Tempest. At 40k Attack Power (which is what you get at heroic gear levels), you get 46k damage with Eviscerate and 10k damage with Crimson Tempest.

In any case, regardless of the damage of Crimson Tempest, your suggestion to keep the bleed effect from Crimson Tempest applied on enemies, even in the case of a single-target rotation, is valid. So I added a new paragraph to explain that when there are 4, 5, or 6 enemies, Eviscerate should sometimes be replaced with Crimson Tempest.

I dont do simcraft, but from personal experience, ive noticed that (assuming subterfuge is taken) opening with a garrote+premed--> ambush-->SnD works best. I have been able to squeeze in an extra ambush occasionaly if my energy allows it, which leads me to thinking that premed, SnD before the fight for an energetic recovery proc would sure up the chances of getting an extra ambush in before stealth breaks. To clarify, this opener would look something like... [premed, SnD] garrote-->ambush-->ambush. Also, (i just dinged 90 today and have been messing around with anticipation) but it seems this second opener works better as the extra combo point gets stored as an anticipation charge Posted Image again, I dont use any form of simulator, just my trusty dps meter!

I added the second rotation you gave as the #1 variation in the guide. I found it very well thought out ;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Slightly confused on the order of things. With the 2nd ambush in play, I'm assuming you are with a group? Otherwise, how are you able to put in 2 ambush as you have to stay behind the target to use ambush. I have been using the premed/SnD ->Ambush -> garrote exclusively as since I gave up the gear giving me the extra 10 energy it has been hard to get much more than that. Am I missing something?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Almost all material presented in these guides are assuming that you are part of a 5+ man group. With that in mind, rear / flank positioning is always possible and the descriptions are written thus. Solo questing and/or pvp game play is quite different in that the use of cc and mobility is of greater importance and has a less predictable rotation for maximizing damage.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Slightly confused on the order of things. With the 2nd ambush in play, I'm assuming you are with a group? Otherwise, how are you able to put in 2 ambush as you have to stay behind the target to use ambush. I have been using the premed/SnD ->Ambush -> garrote exclusively as since I gave up the gear giving me the extra 10 energy it has been hard to get much more than that. Am I missing something?

Almost all material presented in these guides are assuming that you are part of a 5+ man group. With that in mind, rear / flank positioning is always possible and the descriptions are written thus. Solo questing and/or pvp game play is quite different in that the use of cc and mobility is of greater importance and has a less predictable rotation for maximizing damage.

All our class guides are written with Raiding in mind. Most of what we present also applies to dungeons, but it was never our aim to deliver class guides for doing solo content.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Is there a reference for DPS with different ilvl gear? Something to the effect of 450 = ?, 463 = ?, and upgrades?

I have been able to reference my DPS but I have no idea if it is in the range I need it to be.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Is there a reference for DPS with different ilvl gear? Something to the effect of 450 = ?, 463 = ?, and upgrades?

I have been able to reference my DPS but I have no idea if it is in the range I need it to be.

Did you try downloading simulationcraft and importing your character in it?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have not, but I will now. I used Shadowcraft, but there isn't a reference - meaning nothing stating you should be at "this" vs. current.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

5.2. Poisons

"This chance is fixed, which means that slower weapons will have a smaller chance of applying your Poison effects than faster weapons."

You mean slower weapons have a a bigger chance of applying your poison.

5.7. Opening Sequence

Variation 3:

Between step 3 and 4 you can use Posted ImageHemorrhage get 5 combo point and always use Posted ImageRupture with 5 combo points, and get max damage from energy spend beacuse reaplying a buff or dibuff cost energy and with 4 combo points you have 20% to NOT get 25 energy.

You're welcome Posted Image

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I was looking at the major glyphs for both subtlety and assassination spec and I noticed there was no mention of Glyph of Deadly Momentum which reapplies your Slice and Dice to it's original duration upon killing an enemy thatt gives honor or experience. Is that not as useful as it seems to me ?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I was looking at the major glyphs for both subtlety and assassination spec and I noticed there was no mention of Glyph of Deadly Momentum which reapplies your Slice and Dice to it's original duration upon killing an enemy thatt gives honor or experience. Is that not as useful as it seems to me ?

This is not very useful in raids, as you need to be the one dealing the killing blow to the add. Also, in most AoE situations, you don't need to maintain Slice and Dice.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Sign in to follow this  
Followers 0

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

  • Similar Content

    • By Vlad
      This thread is for comments about our Destruction Warlock PvP guide for Legion.
    • By Ohba
      Hey everyone!
      I'm a long time rogue, looking for a new place to hang out. I'm former cutting edge raider, but for the last year I've been playing more casually due to IRL commitments. What I'm looking for atm is a guild that raids somewere between 21:00-22:00 until 00:00, 2-3 day per week. I look for a guild that is doing mythic raiding.
      I'm atm alliance but I'm willing to transfer server and faction for the right guild, so everything is of interest!
      Thanks, Ohba
      For more info or a chat u can reach me at Ohba#2534
    • By Ithok
      If you are swedish, looking to raid 2-3 days a week, looking for a very social, fun but still competitive mythic guild, then look no further, we are the guild for you. Thank you for taking the time to learn more about us.
      About us:
      Geek Squad is a swedish guild that has been around for many years. We are currently focusing on mythic raiding and our goal is to always clear the current content before the release of the next tier. The guild is composed mainly of former hardcore raiders who can't play as much as in our younger days but who still want to play, have fun and have a good progression. Since we raid only 2 days a week we expect our raiders to have a high attendance and to be well prepared for current content. 
      Raid schedule:
      Wednesday Optional Hc clear: 19-When we are done
      Thursday: 19–22
      Sunday: 18-22
      We never extend beyond these raiding hours.
      What do we expect from you:
      - Swedish speaker; as the guild solely consists of swedish players we expect you to have a good understanding of the swedish language and be able to communicate on both voicecom and chat.
      - Attendance; as we only raid 2 days a week and keep a tight roster of raiders (not more then few on the bench at time) so being there and available even if not selected for certain boss is very important
      - Maturity; as the average age in Geek Squad is a bit above most guilds we would prefer if you are as well. We are a bunch of guys with families, jobs and real lives outside of the game and we understand all that comes with it. However if you are to commit to raiding with us we want you to be in it for the long haul. We focus on having fun with the game while also maintaining a competitive attitude, we hope you want to be a part of and contribute to that.
      - Social skills; be communicative, enjoy the game, let us know in advance if something is going to interfere with your raiding schedule so that we can plan accordingly. In our own modest opinions we have one of the best guild environments you can be a part of and we want to bring in more people who can positively contribute to that.
      - Know your class inside out and how to perform it to its maximum. Be able to take constructive criticism
      What can we offer you:
      - Stable guild; the guild has been around for a long time and we have no plans to slow down now.
      -We always try to bring the players that will give us the most chance of killing a boss on progression fights, this means you will have the same chance as everyone else of competing for a spot.
      - Experienced and motivated players; most of our raiders have played the game for a long time (vanilla/tbc) and are still highly motivated to get the most of the raiding time that we have together. If you are to join us we expect you to do everything you can to further those goals.
      - Occasional alt raids, not mandatory. Totally optional for people who want a little bit more raiding on side with their alts
      PROGRESS:
      Emerald Nightmare: 7/7
      Trial of Valor: 2/3
      Nighthold: 8/10 (10/10 HC farming on off days)
      RECRUITMENT:
      We are currently looking to extend our roster with 2-3 players and are looking for the following classes:
      Rogue
      Elemental Shaman
      Warlock
      Frost DK
      Balance Druid
      We don't have an application form as we feel that is an old and inefficient way of doing recruitment. Instead we focus on interviews as well as going through a bit of logs. We don't expect you to consistently parse in the 90% but at least showing that you know your class well.
      As for which classes we are looking for we are quite flexible at the moment as we currently have a good class balance already so we are mainly interested in you as a player rather than your class/specc. With that said we do specifically want a resto shaman and a rogue a bit more than anything else.
      If you are interested feel free to contact us.
      How to apply:
      To apply contact Ithok#2898, Krebb#2944, kebban#21852 or whisper an officer ingame.
      Thanks for reading and hope to hear from you soon!
    • By Damien
      This thread is for comments about our Inarius Skeletons Necromancer build guide.
    • By HiddenInShadowz
      Hey guys I have been having some dps issues on my outlaw rogue. I have 906 ilvl but I am usually one of the lowest dps. I have only been focusing on the ilvl of the gear and not really the stats so I am thinking that that is the problem. Any tips would be greatly appreciated thanks!