Resto Echo of the Elements (How do you like it )

[Gigawatt 0]

I'd like to know everyones thoughts on this talent now . I feel like I'm casting less Healing Waves and just riptiding everyone it feels very clunky like the glyph of riptide which i'm not a fan of that play style , but I love the 2 Spirit Links. I'm mostly 80% of the time Ancestral Swiftness spec .

 

[chiznitz 4]

I think it's great.  

 

Not having any issues keeping it up and still using healing waves weaved in with the chain heal spam that 2/4piece promotes.  The double spirit link alone makes up for anything imo.

[Amygdalla 4]

I tried it for a while. But when it comes down to it,  I am experiencing that it is better having AS - that 5% haste and the ability to use every 1.5 min definitely has been way more efficient. Because, in reality, how many times do you use SLT in a fight whereas AS can be used so much more and coupled with Ascendance. Def worth it and more valuable than EoTE. Something to really consider. 

 

For a while I held to EoTE bc of that comfort zone to having the 2 charges of SLT available in case of emergencies. But I was missing out on healing opportunities and therefore, lacking efficiency. Also with the 4 set bonus, having glyph of riptide is way better. free riptides will allow procs of the 4 set via tidal waves, so the 2 stacks of rip tides are not as efficient with EoTE and also unleash life no longer buffs HR, so its prettu much useless...I mean, yes, its great that it buffs your heal...but in reality, how does that really work out? if you need to heal a tank super fast youre just going to cast healing surge. youre not going to cast Unleash Life, and THEN healing surge - he may be dead by the time you finish casting - its a split second difference that can determine survival or a wipe. In theory it works. In a practical emergency situation, unless you're so amazing at keeping that stuff up like a robot and stuff it doesn't most of the time.

Edited April 1, 2015 by Amygdalla

[Pandacho 286]

I wouldn't debate here EotE vs AS - they both are valuable talents.

But the value of EotE is not exactly in the abilities you are arguing about, Amygdalla.

With EotE we have two charges of Riptide, UL and SLT before their CD starts to work. 

So:

1. You can have 3-4 fully powered Riptide on raid which is enough for the High Tided CH - no need to cut Riptide healing with a Glyph and spend time and mana for Riptide blanketing (most of it will just expire overhealing).

2. SLT is a very powerful raid CD which provides both damage mitigation and health redistribution when casted in right time (for example with Tranq, Ascendance or any other raid healing CD). It's not an emergency button but a part of the planned raid CDs rotation when dealing with the certain mechanics.

3. UL (if you are not assigned to heal the tanks) should be normally casted before CH, not single target spell. I think that 30% increased effect from a CH is a nice enough buff.

 

This is the value of EotE in my opinion

[Amygdalla 4]

Good points, Pandacho.I love your points of views :)

About the SLT. because we run with a druid, monk, and another shaman , sometimes a pally is switched in, they hardly ever use my SLT cd  on the AA addon  :(

I use it at my own discretion, and it is a nice CD to have 2 charges of. Its just something I switch back and forth trying out depending on encounters. And, you're right about UL.

[Amygdalla 4]

Something that just caught my attention.

In regards to the riptide glyph - I was told by the officer shaman in our guild, to go with it because the more riptides you put up on people , along with tidal waves buff, the more use of 4pc set bonus will be procced on people and chain heal will heal more through those riptided...and now you're saying its the same and more mana efficient if you just use them on cd... not sure if i got that idea just right - im a little confused now.

[KajiAU 0]

If you are using your riptide on cd with EotE you will always have enough riptided to take benefit from high tide. While doing this and weaving in chain heals you will proc the 4pc more than enough. 

 

As Pandacho said cutting the initial heal of riptide and the massive overheal and additional mana cost of over blanketing the raid with riptides (then factor in extra globals and other actions you could be making) hardly makes it worth it. 

 

You mentioned you are running with a resto druid and monk, your glyphed riptides with no initial heal would be almost worthless as well with the amount of rejuv and renewing mists floating around.

 

Hope that helps.

Edited April 2, 2015 by KajiAU

[Pandacho 286]

Yes, KajiAU explained it precisely.

 

I'll even bring some numbers here (you can check them in Hamlet's HealerCalcs).

 

The numbers are for the EotE talent taken:

 

                                    T17 2-piece                 T17 2-piece                 T17 4-piece                T17 4-piece 

                                    w/o G. of Riptide       w/ G. of Riptide       w/o G. of Riptide          w/ G. of Riptide

Rotation HPS                       64154                       63102                       64154                               63102 

Net MP5                             -2894                       -3572                        -2464                               -3033

Time to OOM (sec)                276                          224                            325                                  264

Gross HPM                           33.08                       30.41                         34.62                               32.08

 

 

The numbers are for the AS talent taken:

 

                                    T17 2-piece              T17 2-piece                 T17 4-piece                T17 4-piece 

                                    w/o G. of Riptide       w/ G. of Riptide       w/o G. of Riptide          w/ G. of Riptide

Rotation HPS                       66490                     65586                         66490                               65586 

Net MP5                             -3005                      -3683                         -2574                               -3143

Time to OOM (sec)                266                         217                            311                                  255

Gross HPM                           33.90                      31.28                         35.46                               32.97

 

“Rotation HPS” is the total raw HPS throughput of the selected rotation (we'll assume that it's the same rotation in all cases here).

“Net MP5″ is your average mana usage per time, net of all sources of regen.  It’s how fast your bar will actually decrease if you maintain this spell usage.

“Time to OOM” is how long it takes to deplete a full bar, at that net MP5.

“Gross HPM” is how much healing you’re doing on average per point of mana spent.

 

As you can see from the table, using Glyph of Riptide just make you OOM almost a whole minute faster and decrease your HPM no matter what talent you take in the Tier4.

Another thing that you can see here, that EoeE talent is more mana conserving, while AS gives slightly more HPM, so you can plan your talents differently for the different fight lengths.

[Gigawatt 0]

I personally can't stand the play style of "glyph of riptide" its way to clunky to me. I rarely only use EotE only on fights like Gruul and oregorger having that 5% haste is just so nice 

[Cheze 6]

I initially thought EotE was gonna be pretty meh unless you specifically needed double spirit link, but after getting used to it I like it a lot.  It improved my riptide usage a ton vs. AS/unglyphed, and glyphed riptide just felt too weak/inefficient for me to want to use it.

 

That said, there is some split among top rsham logs at the moment; many use EotE/unglyphed riptide, but glyph+AS is also effective.

[Gigawatt 0]

We have 3 Tree Druids in our raid so EotE just doesn't work for me. The extra Haste just feels so good healing with it from AS 

[Moozedude 47]

I think a couple key benefits that are kinda stealthy are that CH does proc Tidal Waves, so if you're raid healing you get the buff, and that if you are NOT blanketing the raid with Riptide, then you can control where the extra jumps from CH go for High Tide.  If half the raid have Riptide up, it'll heal willy-nilly.  If you have only three Riptides up, then that UL-CH is gonna heal the socks off those people you want to heal.  It may not always result in the highest HPS, but it puts the heals where you need them, saving the folks who need saved and taking the largest advantage of Mastery.

 

Also, EotE doesn't prevent CD from triggering til second cast.  CD starts immediately, but you have another charge available.  This means that even if you cast at the pull (which we all know you won't, but just go with it), you have a second charge available, AND it will come off CD at the 3 min mark, giving you a second charge again (or a first, if you did a second cast during the CD window).  It still only results in one additional cast over the length of the fight, which devalues it over longer fights, but having the flexibility to drop an extra one during a high-damage phase is groovy.  Also, being able to bust a pair of Riptides really quick for that CH shenanigan is pretty sweet.

 

Side note, Tranq heals everyone equally.  I would almost prefer to use SLT on a CD where only some people are getting the benefit, so as to distribute that benefit more evenly.  Like maybe a phase where there is no other CD available, and all the healers are just spamming out AoE (which is usually highly inefficient).  Obviously, the smaller the team, the more likely this is to happen.

[Gigawatt 0]

I like to get reminded cause I do forget , Can someone explain how all the jumps from Chain Heal work? Like if I riptide 3 ppl and CH that 1 target that has the riptide its only gonna bounce to the 2 other ppl that have RT on them? I don't know if I'v been doing it wrong but I always just CL just one target that has RT on them then I thought the extra 25% effected all the other ppl that get the bounce . Please correct me if I'm wrong i dont mind at all.

 

PS: Also is it bad that I UL + RT ? Cause I do that a lot 

Edited April 2, 2015 by Gigawatt

[Pandacho 286]

I like to get reminded cause I do forget , Can someone explain how all the jumps from Chain Heal work?

PS: Also is it bad that I UL + RT ? Cause I do that a lot 

 

I posted a kind of table with explanation how CH jumps in this post.

 

UL+RT is not bad, it's just not the best utilization of UL. Every other spell that could be affected by UL does more healing, so...

[Pandacho 286]

Side note, Tranq heals everyone equally.  I would almost prefer to use SLT on a CD where only some people are getting the benefit, so as to distribute that benefit more evenly.  Like maybe a phase where there is no other CD available, and all the healers are just spamming out AoE (which is usually highly inefficient).  Obviously, the smaller the team, the more likely this is to happen.

 

This is exactly the point of SLT. Tranq heals everyone equally - that's right. So if you have 1 person with 10%HP, another with 50%HP and the 3rd with 90%HP, the Tranq will add to every one of them 60%HP, bringing the 1st person to 70%, 2nd will get a slight overheal, while for the 3rd one it will be a complete waste.

Adding SLT to these people redistributes their current and gained HP equally, so the overheal will be minimal.

[Cakepies 2]

So the whole ancestral swiftness vs EotE w(/o) glyph of riptide is actually a pretty awesome argument for shamans because it's probably the one talent tier that actually has two choices that are both feasible and interesting. Arguably you could say the same for high tide vs cloudburst, but I really think high tide is the clear winner of those two.

 

Anyways, I really enjoy playing with EotE, I feel like the extra SL is worth it on a lot of encounters, although that's not something that's going to impact healing logs. The double riptide is a very good medium between having riptide as a response to raid pokes and light damage segments, while also allowing chain heal to get an increased benefit from high tide. Unleash life is pretty useless though, really. 9 times out of 10, casting a riptide is going to be more beneficial to your chain heal. The only time I ever use even use unleash life in a consistent fashion is for the meteors on FB Kagraz, where melee will already have two riptides running and I'll still have time to buff unleash life before it hits. As to comboing glyph o' 'tide, because the double riptide is the main benefit to taking this talent, using glyph of riptide in conjunction is really dumb.

 

I have a lot less experience with Ancestral Swiftness, but 5% haste is huge. Because secondary stats grow in potency in relation to spell power as the gear scales higher and higher, this buff is only going to get better. Also, while only every 90 seconds, an instant cast CH with a possible 2pc proc is pretty potent. If you are dead set on taking glyph of riptide, this is the default talent choice and still a very strong choice if you go unglyphed. In the end it's going to be more of a play style choice, although the raw numbers for ancestral swiftness should be better.

 

As to whether you should take glyph of riptide at all, I honestly don't think it's a great help in a realistic raid scenario. Yes, putting riptide on an entire group will boost your healing for the next spike of damage, but usually the only time you have 5 or 6 seconds where you don't need to cast EB, healing rain, or heal at all is at the very start of an encounter. The rest of the time, you are realistically only going to have time for 2 to 3 riptides before it's going to be more beneficial to cast something else. Also, if a damage spike has happened and it's game on for the healers, wasting a GCD on riptide when you could be casting CH already is either going to be a waste of your mastery or worst case scenario someone dies because you didn't do any actual healing for >3 seconds. To the benefits of the 4pc proc, it's not worth trying to get a proc for CH when you should actually be using chain heal, which can proc on its own. With EotE there are still 2 solid chances for a 4pc proc in a 12 second period, and then you can focus on other things like casting EB for a guaranteed spirit proc or prepping with healing rain.

[Moozedude 47]

Math bad.

 

disregard.

Edited April 4, 2015 by Moozedude

[Alltat 0]

3. UL (if you are not assigned to heal the tanks) should be normally casted before CH, not single target spell. I think that 30% increased effect from a CH is a nice enough buff.

Using UL before Chain Heal is a huge HPS loss compared to just spamming Chain Heal, unless you can time it so that you cast the UL while moving. It's a very slight HPM gain, but if you're willing to sacrifice that much HPS to gain a bit of mana efficiency, you shouldn't be spamming Chain Heal anyway (even with High Tide and 2T17, HW still wins in HPM). The situation is less complicated for single target healing: on a single target, Unleash Life is both a HPS loss and a HPM loss compared to simply spamming Healing Wave or Surge.

You should really only be casting Unleash Life for the movement speed boost and before predictable single target damage (like Blackhand smashes). For predictable AoE damage your time is better spent getting Riptides up, refreshing Earth Shield, dropping a Healing Rain and a Healing Stream Totem, and finally precasting a Chain Heal so that it finishes right after the damage hits. And if you have time for all that AND Unleash Life, you clearly have so little to do and the content is so trivial anyway that you could be away dancing in a corner instead and it wouldn't matter.

That said, there is some split among top rsham logs at the moment; many use EotE/unglyphed riptide, but glyph+AS is also effective.

Looking at logs, it definitely seems like all three options (EotE, AS, AS+glyph) perform pretty much identically in practice, at least in the hands of a skilled player. You'll find plenty of all three among the top logs on every boss. I think the most notable thing about this is that it means that the only thing you're actually giving up to get those double Spirit Links and double Unleash sprints is the instant heal from AS. The extra charge on Riptide seems to add roughly the same amount of throughput as the 5% haste. Simulations may not show it quite that high, but in a real healing scenario where you frequently have to throw off your "rotation" to spot heal or whatever, the extra charge on Riptide results in a lot more casts.

[Grautods 1]

my 2 cents about Heroic and Mythic Raid healing and EoE vs AS

 

Its all about the boss and your raid team composition. 

 

If you have a ton shields coming from Palies and Disc priest and the damage is such that you spread the raid out then EoE is not as effective as AS

 

If you have few shields (lots of druid, monk, resto shaman in your team) and the damage pattern is such that the raid stacks up .. then EoE is awesome for the extra spirit link totem.

 

It is horses for courses.!!!

 

Also if you take AS the 5% buff is across all your heals effectively giving you a 5% buff.  Add in Glyph of Riptide and you can get more HPS without restricting you ability to keep riptide up on 2-3 targets.
 Based on tis IMHO there is little justification in taking EoE based on Riptide (just take a look at some logs and see how much actual healing Riptide does of the total heals and this becomes apparent)

Edited April 9, 2015 by Grautods

[Alltat 0]

Based on tis IMHO there is little justification in taking EoE based on Riptide (just take a look at some logs and see how much actual healing Riptide does of the total heals and this becomes apparent)

With EotE, my Riptides tend to contribute about 8-10k HPS, not counting High Tide synergies. You won't see anything close to that with the glyph, as the instant heal tends to make up about half of the total healing done by the spell. Being an instant cast direct heal means it scales really well with mastery, which is especially noticeable on progression.

[Moozedude 47]

I switched to EotE the other day, and dude, wow.

So, first off, removing the glyph from riptide makes it actually a heal! Like, healthbars move when I cast it! That is very impactful for me, as I tend, even when precasting in anticipation of CH spam, to put it on people who are damaged.

I find with EotE, I can pop a pair of riptides out, and then alternate riptides and CH to keep the chain buffs out while accounting for CD. When the damage phase ends, I go back to conserve/regen, and bank one of the charges for the next burst. This also enables me to change the exact targets a guarantee the heals bounce to. I am seriously considering the glyph of chaining, just because of this playstyle not suffering from the cd to CH.

In a pinch, I find myself popping UL to buff a single-target heal on a tank. With the extra global, it's not really an "emergency" heal, but if they're sub-25%, the buff plus mastery can take them right out of danger. UL does have that small heal component, so hopefully that can buy time.

This is purely anecdotal. But it feels so much smoother, and like I have so much more control.

[Pandacho 286]

Nice to hear that EotE worked for you :)

 

 I am seriously considering the glyph of chaining

Just as a side note, remember that you will be not able to fully utilize your 4-p T17 buff with this glyph. You will force a 3 sec. CD on CH and wouldn't be able to spam it in this 10 sec window of opportunity.

[Moozedude 47]

Nice to hear that EotE worked for you :)

 

Just as a side note, remember that you will be not able to fully utilize your 4-p T17 buff with this glyph. You will force a 3 sec. CD on CH and wouldn't be able to spam it in this 10 sec window of opportunity.

I happen to be nowhere near T17 4pc. If/when I do get there, I can revert the glyph to... Something else. :)