Invoker Thorns Crusader

[Guest Guest]

Hello Deadset! First off, great guide and a big thank you. I followed it and it has helped me tremendously, especially since it was my first time to make a season character. I do have some questions though.

1. Is hack a good substitute while I do not yet have Blood Brother?

2. Was Simplicity's Strength ever considered in this build? I'm curious because Punish seems to be the main damage dealer.

[Deadset 108]

1. Is hack a good substitute while I do not yet have Blood Brother?

2. Was Simplicity's Strength ever considered in this build? I'm curious because Punish seems to be the main damage dealer.

 

Heya! Hack can temporarily substitute Blood Brother, yes. So can a Furnace. Simplicity isn't a consideration because while Punish seems to deliver the hits, it's actually only means to apply Thorns damage. :)

[Guest inso]

Hello Deadset, I hope you can give me your thoughts on the following.

I'm running this invoker set and have all the required gear/cube/skills/gems, and having a difficulty going beyond GR73 (if i substitute the ruby gems on my gear with diamonds i don't make it at all, with the ruby gems im about 50-60 seconds late on the rift guardian).

Another point, I was checking the crusader solo leader board, and although they are running a thorns build, but they do so without the invoker set, could you please give your insight about that specific build and the difference in play style? Is it a fact that the invoker set/build will get you to the 70-80 bracket only?

Here's a link to my bnet char: http://eu.battle.net/d3/en/profile/inso-2827/hero/75216388

I'd appreciate it if you could tell me if there's anything wrong (other than some gear stats), or maybe just my paragon level needs to be higher.

 

Thanks

[Guest XxDeaditesxX]

Hi i know it says this build can clear G-Rifts 85+ but has anyone seen it done and how high did they get can someone post there profile and maybe a video of them doing past 85+

[Nytemare 2]

So just got  The Traveler's Pledge finally came with 5% CRD but no socket. now I can reroll the crit damage, but do I try for a socket or try and go for Phy Skill %?

[Inso 2]

So just got  The Traveler's Pledge finally came with 5% CRD but no socket. now I can reroll the crit damage, but do I try for a socket or try and go for Phy Skill %?

 

Socket on all jewelry items is a must have. Get the socket until you get a better Traveler's Pledge, you can't miss the legendary gem, you need all 3.

[Inso 2]

Hello Deadset, I hope you can give me your thoughts on the following.

I'm running this invoker set and have all the required gear/cube/skills/gems, and having a difficulty going beyond GR73 (if i substitute the ruby gems on my gear with diamonds i don't make it at all, with the ruby gems im about 50-60 seconds late on the rift guardian).

Another point, I was checking the crusader solo leader board, and although they are running a thorns build, but they do so without the invoker set, could you please give your insight about that specific build and the difference in play style? Is it a fact that the invoker set/build will get you to the 70-80 bracket only?

Here's a link to my bnet char: http://eu.battle.net/d3/en/profile/inso-2827/hero/75216388

I'd appreciate it if you could tell me if there's anything wrong (other than some gear stats), or maybe just my paragon level needs to be higher.

 

Thanks

Hi again Deadset, 

So I have been considering several changes to try to push past GR74.

1. Using Diamonds instead of Rubies on the armor sockets is a no-go.
2. Losing the set bonus from the Endless Walk set (changing both ring and neck), in favor of:

• Using Hellfire Amulet to gain an additional passive (Lord Commander most probably)
• Equipping Unity on my char and the enchantress in order to remove Laws of Justice and use Bombardment instead
• Cubing Mortal Drama to boost Belt of the Trove and Bombardment (dunno if it would be more dmg than Blood Brother)

I was also thinking about equipping Illusory Boots and using RoRG in Kanai's Cube, but that I would lose the huge boost from Convention of Elements.

 

I'd appreciate it if you could share your thoughts.

 

Thanks

[Deadset 108]

...

I'd appreciate it if you could share your thoughts.

 

Thanks

 

Hey! What you have seen on the leaderboard is the Thorns Bombardment build using the Legacy of Nightmares ring set. We have it outlined here: https://www.icy-veins.com/d3/crusader-endgame-bombardment-build-with-the-legacy-of-nightmares-set-patch-2-4

 

In Patch 2.4, it outperforms the Invoker set Thorns Crusader, thus taking over the Leaderboard. As a future tip however, it doesn't seem to be the case in the upcoming 2.4.1 patch, where Invoker dominates as the Thorns build.

 

Onto actual suggestions:

- Some of your pieces are missing Thorns: Chest, Belt, Amulet. That's some damage lost.

- Some of your pieces are missing Cooldown Reduction: Amulet, Shield, Ring. That's significant damage and toughness lost.

- Some of your pieces have redundant stats: Crit Damage on the Amulet, Movespeed on the Ring, Bombardment % on the Shoulders, Life Regen on the Chest and Pants. They are best replaced by other stats.

 

I would not shift the spec into Bombardment, the payoff would not be the same as the LoN Bombardment spec which is better suited to the skill. I'd keep the Cube setup as it is. Once you start perfecting the stats across the board and gain some more Paragons (to max out the tabs and start putting into mainstat at least - 800+), I think you'll be surprised! Cheers :)

[Inso 2]

 

...

I'd appreciate it if you could share your thoughts.

 

Thanks

 

Hey! What you have seen on the leaderboard is the Thorns Bombardment build using the Legacy of Nightmares ring set. We have it outlined here: https://www.icy-veins.com/d3/crusader-endgame-bombardment-build-with-the-legacy-of-nightmares-set-patch-2-4

 

In Patch 2.4, it outperforms the Invoker set Thorns Crusader, thus taking over the Leaderboard. As a future tip however, it doesn't seem to be the case in the upcoming 2.4.1 patch, where Invoker dominates as the Thorns build.

 

Onto actual suggestions:

- Some of your pieces are missing Thorns: Chest, Belt, Amulet. That's some damage lost.

- Some of your pieces are missing Cooldown Reduction: Amulet, Shield, Ring. That's significant damage and toughness lost.

- Some of your pieces have redundant stats: Crit Damage on the Amulet, Movespeed on the Ring, Bombardment % on the Shoulders, Life Regen on the Chest and Pants. They are best replaced by other stats.

 

I would not shift the spec into Bombardment, the payoff would not be the same as the LoN Bombardment spec which is better suited to the skill. I'd keep the Cube setup as it is. Once you start perfecting the stats across the board and gain some more Paragons (to max out the tabs and start putting into mainstat at least - 800+), I think you'll be surprised! Cheers

 

Hey, much appreciated mate.

And yes I know about the bad stats on some pieces, haven't gotten better yet, farming till your eyes bleed is the name of the game :)

I'm sticking to the invoker set and working on paragon points as you have suggested.

 

Thanks again.

[XxDeaditesxX 0]

Hi Deadset i know you said this build could do 85+ Grifts but i wanted to find out what is the highest you have seen some do cause it seems more people are using the LON Build over Invoker build The LON is able to do up to 95 Grift. and with the new patch coming how much do you think the stats will change with the invoker build + items.... or will they be the same.... right now i'm able to do GRift 85 but i play on xbox one.... i use to play on PC not much anymore

Edited March 24, 2016 by XxDeaditesxX

[Nytemare 2]

Dreadset you mention Legacy of Nightmares and linked it, but it says Ancient, Does every legendary really have to all say Ancient in the name or is that a typo?

 

Also for Inso feedback you said he had bombardment on his shoulders, I figure increase bomb damage was a good thing.  I know still starting out but here what I got going on so far.

 

Diablo S5 Hero: http://us.battle.net/d3/en/profile/Nytemare-1476/hero/74204376

Edited March 24, 2016 by Nytemare

[Nytemare 2]

Iso I looked at your link, I know I still young compared to you, but one thing that might help you with your struggle is your enchantress. She has three items with no Int, plus she all arcane, so anything that gives + Arcane damage is a straight boost to her damage as well. Her skills might say weapon damage but just like how we benefit from str she benefit from Int, just she does so at a 2.5 times the rate. So might want to replace those 3 items for Int items. Weapon part easy you can crap a Legendary Staff, or upgrade a yellow on with Int on it. Same for Neck and Ring. and of course you can get lucky and roll Int ring and necks, and if all else fails for the neck just make her the hellfire one

Edited March 24, 2016 by Nytemare

[Inso 2]

Iso I looked at your link, I know I still young compared to you, but one thing that might help you with your struggle is your enchantress. She has three items with no Int, plus she all arcane, so anything that gives + Arcane damage is a straight boost to her damage as well. Her skills might say weapon damage but just like how we benefit from str she benefit from Int, just she does so at a 2.5 times the rate. So might want to replace those 3 items for Int items. Weapon part easy you can crap a Legendary Staff, or upgrade a yellow on with Int on it. Same for Neck and Ring. and of course you can get lucky and roll Int ring and necks, and if all else fails for the neck just make her the hellfire one

 

 

Dreadset you mention Legacy of Nightmares and linked it, but it says Ancient, Does every legendary really have to all say Ancient in the name or is that a typo?

 

Also for Inso feedback you said he had bombardment on his shoulders, I figure increase bomb damage was a good thing.  I know still starting out but here what I got going on so far.

 

Diablo S5 Hero: http://us.battle.net/d3/en/profile/Nytemare-1476/hero/74204376

Hi Nytemare, 

 

Here's my reply for both your posts:

1- For the Legacy of Nightmares set, it will only shine when all your equipped items are "ancient" because of its set bonus (each ancient item increases your dmg by 100% and reduces dmg taken by 4%) - it is a must eventually if you wanna push higher Grifts

2- The bombardment dmg on shoulders is indeed useless for the Invoker thorns build; you only need bombardment from your belt not for the damage it does (which is very minimal), but to trigger the 4 set bonus of Invokers, which reduces your dmg taken by 50% for 20 seconds every time bombardment is cast, and the belt casts it every 6-8 seconds

3- As for the followers and my enchantress, all followers damage is absolutely useless, you never take them for their damage; hence the gear they have equipped is irrelevant except for the "Focus", which in my case doesn't let the enchantress die. The reason I am taking the enchantress is because of the Toughness boost and the damage buff that she provides to my Crusader:

• Missile Ward: reduces damage taken from ranged attacks (missile) by 6% for both the enchantress and the crusader
• Erosion: basically this spell will increase your damage by 3% for 5 seconds whenever it is cast
• Focused Mind: 3% attach speed increase

I tried all 3 followers, the best combo that worked for me was the enchantress for the 3 buffs that she provides. I hated the knock-back from the Templar because you want enemies to keep hitting you, and the crit buff from the Scoundrel is utterly useless.

My Bnet tag is on my profile, you can add me and we can chat some more if you like.

[Nytemare 2]

Slot Paragon Points Core

1. Movement Speed up to 25% cap
2. Strength
3. Vitality
4. Maximum Wrath

 

So there a cap of 50 pts for movement speed, and of course a cap on Wrath at 50 but since we don't use it, no point go into it. Yet no cap on Str and Vit/ Since we use Heart of Iron do we spent any pts into Vit at all? if so what is the ratio we should go with.

[Inso 2]

Slot Paragon Points Core

1. Movement Speed up to 25% cap
2. Strength
3. Vitality
4. Maximum Wrath

 

So there a cap of 50 pts for movement speed, and of course a cap on Wrath at 50 but since we don't use it, no point go into it. Yet no cap on Str and Vit/ Since we use Heart of Iron do we spent any pts into Vit at all? if so what is the ratio we should go with.

 

After 50 points in Movement Speed you go full strength, nothing else.

There are hundreds of posts explaining why Strength is better than Vitality for Thorns Crusaders, but simply put, strength will increase your damage multiplier, which is much better than just increasing thorns.

[Nytemare 2]

Yeah that what I been doing just str after.

 

What is your opinion on the Furnace? 50% increase elite damage is pretty good for a cube slot. Don't know if applies to rift guard or just elite packs.

 

Despite reading it, I still don't get why  Bane of the Stricken beats out Bane of the Powerful. Power 25 effect is a flat damage bonus to elites which is prime things you fighting to pop the rift guard quickly. Also upon killing elite pack, its a flat 20% damage boost for X seconds. at 35 lasts 35 seconds. That only 5% less damage then Stricken Rift Guard/Boss only 25 effect. Since you have just killed an elite most likely to pop that Rift you go into him with the buff fully up. 

 

Only up to Rift 50, but so far 65 second is enough time to drop a Rift Guard, of course only have it to 35 those pushing higher I seen their gems are 100+ so that even longer.  I just don't get it, must be missing something about the other gem. even at 100+ only little over 1% increase damage per hit.

 

Only thing I could think of why it so good is stacks rise due to thorn damage as well. 

Edited March 25, 2016 by Nytemare

[Inso 2]

Yeah that what I been doing just str after.

 

What is your opinion on the Furnace? 50% increase elite damage is pretty good for a cube slot. Don't know if applies to rift guard or just elite packs.

 

Despite reading it, I still don't get why  Bane of the Stricken beats out Bane of the Powerful. Power 25 effect is a flat damage bonus to elites which is prime things you fighting to pop the rift guard quickly. Also upon killing elite pack, its a flat 20% damage boost for X seconds. at 35 lasts 35 seconds. That only 5% less damage then Stricken Rift Guard/Boss only 25 effect. Since you have just killed an elite most likely to pop that Rift you go into him with the buff fully up. 

 

Only up to Rift 50, but so far 65 second is enough time to drop a Rift Guard, of course only have it to 35 those pushing higher I seen their gems are 100+ so that even longer.  I just don't get it, must be missing something about the other gem. even at 100+ only little over 1% increase damage per hit.

 

Only thing I could think of why it so good is stacks rise due to thorn damage as well. 

Here's why:

3 things you need to keep in mind, this spec is a block-based spec, not just thorns, and second thing is synergy between all your items/spells/legendary powers/gems, and lastly comes attack speed.

Yes Furnace applies to rift guardians, and it is a good replacement option to consider if you don't have Blood Brother. Blood Brother is by far superior to Furnace, but why?

• Blood Brother increases your block%
• You may say you are already block-capped (75%), which is true, but, look at your second ring: Justice Lantern, it is based on a % of your block, so the higher your block% is, the more dmg reduction the ring will provide
• When your Block% is capped, you're basically blocking 3 out of every 4 attacks, and here's where Blood Brother shines, reducing your dmg taken from blocked attacks, and increasing your dmg done by 30%. Trust me, the higher you go in Grifts the more sense it will make, Furnace fails compared to Blood Brother

Now concerning the comparison between Bane of the Stricken and Bane of the Powerful:

• Stricken is 25% against bosses and rift guardians, powerful is 15% against elites: Stricken wins
• Powerful will fall short when you kill a pack that has no elites in it, Stricken is up all the time. Stricken wins
• Stricken provides the additive % of dmg from your attacks, and with the very high attack speed of this spec, the damage boost from this gem becomes really high. Stricken also wins

 

I hope I answered your questions, but please note that all the info in my posts and replies are out of my personal experience with this set/build. I tried several variations, changed many items/skills/gems, they all fell short compared to what is posted in Deadset's original post for the Invoker set, take it as is.

Edited March 25, 2016 by Inso

[Guest Azemeazed]

Hi, I am using some of your guides on other classes and made this one few days ago and it is very fun. I found one shield called vo'toyias spiker which gives unique stat "enemies affected by provoke take double damage from thorns". So i was pretty amazed with that stat so i tried to use it with your build. So i changed 1. blood brothers power with shields one, 2. Use %chance for block on justice lantern, 3. Changed laws of justice with provoke - hit me.

I dont feel some difference in damage when i wach monsters health before provoke and after. Although i can finish grift 70 now and couldnt before, but my thorns legendary gem was weaker before...

[Guest Duder]

Hi, I am using some of your guides on other classes and made this one few days ago and it is very fun. I found one shield called vo'toyias spiker which gives unique stat "enemies affected by provoke take double damage from thorns". So i was pretty amazed with that stat so i tried to use it with your build. So i changed 1. blood brothers power with shields one, 2. Use %chance for block on justice lantern, 3. Changed laws of justice with provoke - hit me.

I dont feel some difference in damage when i wach monsters health before provoke and after. Although i can finish grift 70 now and couldnt before, but my thorns legendary gem was weaker before...

people definitely use provoke-hit me and spiker sometimes. You do you man!

[Guest Guest]

I was stuck on grift 74 and i noticed that i am missing some power and have too much toughness. So i use everything from this guide but i noticed that if i use bombardment vs laws of justice and wait till physical on conviction of elements is on to cast bombardment is giving that missing seconds to finish grift. Yes some elite groups are tougher without laws toughness but you can escape them and get to another one and kill it. All in all with laws you can tank almost anything but missing damage. With bombardment you can finish higher grift.

Also i tested it with mortal drama but you miss too much tougness and with provoke shield + provoke hit me you do less damage than with bombardment. Furnace is also trickier than bombardment couse you loose too much tougness, blood brother is in my opinion tougher than laws of justice so it should be kept.

Thats it from me, now im trying to get that LoN bombardment gear and push even higher grifts. And i think ill use all from that build but will go for mesmerize amy + strongarm.

[Guest Guest]

hi

 

already have all the items u recomend but yesterday i got a weapon drop  thats  make me doubt if the pig stiker is the must be in the wep slot.....DOOMBRINGER what do u think guys 20% more physical dmg.

 

thx in advance

[Inso 2]

hi

 

already have all the items u recomend but yesterday i got a weapon drop  thats  make me doubt if the pig stiker is the must be in the wep slot.....DOOMBRINGER what do u think guys 20% more physical dmg.

 

thx in advance

Hi there, 

 

A lot of people asked this question previously, on several forums. The result is the same however, Pig Sticker is your weapon of choice for Invoker's Thorns build. 

It is slightly faster than the Doombringer, and has its own unique + %beast and %human, and can roll all other required stats, whereas the %physical on Doombringer takes up 1 of those stats slot on the weapon. 

In the Invoker's build your weapon is only a stat stick, nothing more.

[Deadset 108]

Adding to Inso's comment, you guys might want to start saving your Hack axes - the weapon will be fixed in Patch 2.4.1 to properly apply buffed Thorns damage, making it the (future) BiS for the build.

[Guest AngryPaladin]

I love the Crusader Thorns build, but I question some of the options listed in the guide associated with Deadset. First, isn't the build more powerful with Bombardment Barrels of Spikes than Akarat's Champion Prophet? If not, I assume Belt of the Trove provides 6 or 7 seconds of enough damage from Bombardment to ensure that Bombardment should not be added to the build and the extra thorns from Barrels is unnecessary according to Deadset. Also, I do not understand how the Paragon Utility resource cost reduction could be prioritized over any other option in the Utility section, specifically gold find, when every active skill is a cooldown that does not use the Crusader's resource.  After playing every build for every character I could find gear for, the Invoker's, Belt of the Trove, Pig Sticker build is the only build that does not use a resource. In my opinion, this is an advantage which makes searching and finding gear for this build easier since recovery is irrelevant.

[Malpeg 0]

I have thoroughly enjoyed this build. I completed GR72 last night. I started playing Season 5 in February and have relied heavily on your guides. Thanks