Invoker Thorns Crusader

[Guest Naene]

Are there any viable alternatives for Convention of Elements for the cube? I have never been able to keep track of the buff rotation so it feels like I'm just wasting the cube slot.

[Valks 2,377]

7 hours ago, Guest Zettez said:

Great guide! I have a question about punish though: would Angel Hair Braid be a good item or an alternative item in some way? Because the build uses Punish, and I got this today, I thought maybe it would be good to use? Or is it discouraged for the build?

It's not discouraged, it can be OK, it's definitely not better than BotT though.

[Valks 2,377]

6 hours ago, Guest Naene said:

Are there any viable alternatives for Convention of Elements for the cube? I have never been able to keep track of the buff rotation so it feels like I'm just wasting the cube slot.

I mean, you don't really need to but you can put in a defensive elemental amulet, but nothing will compete with CoE's damage output for the build.

[Guest Zettez]

6 hours ago, Blainie said:

It's not discouraged, it can be OK, it's definitely not better than BotT though.

I am not sure I follow, is not BotK a gem and Angel Hair Braid a waist? 

Also, how about String of Ears and Sanguinary Vambraces? Maybe they are not as good either?

[Guest DragonAstaA]

I quite enjoyed this guide, I tried a few different variations as I got some gear, still working on getting all the Invoker`s  pieces as I only got the hands so far, so am using Akkhan hands and head for now

I did something different and is working awesome for me. well 3 main changes anyways swapping one weapon for another one armor for another and one skill for another

I cubed Hack(for the 100% bonus to thorns every attack) and am using Golden Scourge as weapon. 

In my Hack weapon case(got one third Bloodshard role  for weapon ^.^) it really was not a very good role, so I used it for awhile till I got the recipe for Golden Scourge which I rolled ~8 times so far to try get what I thought was best version of it, next  roll will be with Str instead of Vitality if I have a choice(and hopefully Ancient legendary)

I quite like smite as I can clear room for party far far better I find vs just keeping myself "tough"(which was not working well for me, could be my low level gear as well) 
(can still tank, it has helped my buddy who I generally play with (just us 2 9/10) was never much into Pub. games as I got hacked 2nd month into game launch(after joined a pub for all of 5mins when buddy that asked me to join him up and DC from game next thing you know, password changed and inventory, gold etc all gone, password was even reset forcefully I have zero idea how, course blizzard denied this ever could have happened unless I gave out my password LMFAO, yeh thousands of people up and give passwords out for no reason, suuurrrreeee)

GScourge with Smite Shatter is working amazing for me and is what I am deeming Invoker Assault Scourge, so weapon is changed to supplement this(with as much Holy damage I could get on it with the rolled 19% boost to same not best rolled but not worst so far)

Sanguinary Vambraces in wrist slot instead of the Invoker ones as when they proc, it very much levels the room, this means RoRG has to be in cube of course, so it probably will end up in not as much damage as using Convention of Elements in jewelry cube slot, but it might be more "consistent" damage vs possibly more "bust" or having to time things better sort or speak, probably would work well enough using as I plan on, or with the built by Deadset version just swapping out the bracers and using Punish as he did, dont have the parts yet or I would test both.

Anyways, Hack in cube using Golden Scourge(with Smite Shatter) Sanguinary Vambraces for wrist(Heart of Iron in armor slot, lucked out on first "orange" pickup, crappy roll nice crunch. 6th bloodshard for shield got me the Spiker) and RoRG Jewelry slot

Still need to complete the set once I manage to get all the other parts. Paragon 109 in Season 8 and am doing well with it so far(very far from best gear but have cleared GR 20 so far when was Para 62)

thanks Deadset for the build much appreciated.
(sorry for multi-submit, never seen this type of captcha before)

[Valks 2,377]

On 10/23/2016 at 0:33 PM, Guest Zettez said:

I am not sure I follow, is not BotK a gem and Angel Hair Braid a waist? 

Also, how about String of Ears and Sanguinary Vambraces? Maybe they are not as good either?

BotT is Belt of the Trove, the recommended belt in this build. The belt causes you to get a 50% damage reduction constantly due to the 4-set Invoker's. It's truly incredible for this build, I don't think much can replace it, if anything.

[Valks 2,377]

1 hour ago, Guest DragonAstaA said:

Still need to complete the set once I manage to get all the other parts. Paragon 109 in Season 8 and am doing well with it so far(very far from best gear but have cleared GR 20 so far when was Para 62)

I'm glad to see the changes you made are working for you. Let us know how they perform once you start hitting higher greater rift levels. Feedback is always useful :)

[Guest DragonWightA]

11 hours ago, Blainie said:

I'm glad to see the changes you made are working for you. Let us know how they perform once you start hitting higher greater rift levels. Feedback is always useful :)

I will do so :) still waiting on finding a Trapped Gem as well though am using thorns and power one(lvl 12/19 I think was)

[Deadset 108]

On 10/23/2016 at 1:35 AM, Guest Naene said:

Are there any viable alternatives for Convention of Elements for the cube? I have never been able to keep track of the buff rotation so it feels like I'm just wasting the cube slot.

You can keep CoE there, not pay attention to it, and it will still sync up often enough and do its magic... Not that I would know... *cough cough*

On 10/23/2016 at 1:11 AM, Guest Zettez said:

Great guide! I have a question about punish though: would Angel Hair Braid be a good item or an alternative item in some way? Because the build uses Punish, and I got this today, I thought maybe it would be good to use? Or is it discouraged for the build?

Belt of the Trove is quite mandatory I'm afraid, since it is tied to your damage reduction with the 4 piece Invoker set (Bombardment will not come up again within those 20 seconds that you have damage reduction from your first Bombardment). Other belts can work temporarily but Trove should be considered a high priority for this build.

[Guest Weapon.]

Why Hack and not Pig Sticker?

[Guest Hack]

Hack does not stack with the Invokers set so I think Pig Sticker is the better option.

 

[Deadset 108]

Hello, Pig Sticker is indeed a viable alternative to Hack and has comparable performance, but as far as I know the bug you refer to (Hack not interacting with Invoker set bonuses) has been fixed a patch ago.

[Guest DragonWightA]

Hack does proc with the build it is fixed now, for the digging I have done to maximize my build, pigsticker is an awesome weapon to have and easier to get it quite useful early on vs hack really comes into its own when a solid roll.

What I discovered so far as follow for max damage output taking thorns spec into account
weapon should be hack(or pigsticker until you get a solid hack version)
wearing nemesis bracer for speed run/bounty OR saguinary vambrace and use/cube Ring of royal grandeur to ensure you maintain the 6 piece bonus
GR/speedrun-bounty
for weapon slot in cube, the furnace/akrats awakening
for armor saguinary vambrace/nemesis bracer
for jewelry convection of element/ring of royal grandeur

vambrace early on may be pretty decent to get until you get "tougher" then heart of iron and/or worn until you get a solid aquila cuirass heart of iron cubed wil IMHO never replace vambrace until you way maximize vitality as even though doesnt proc constantly 300% of vitality is not same as raw 1000% from base of thorn, so probably a math game(which I suck at) need very high vitality for heart of iron to outdo vambrace, probably much easier to maximize base thorns for quite awhile longer then maximize vitality little I read on this pretty much hints at the same.

Anyways, that is what I found so far, to "sac" one part for using RoRG i.e wearing vambrace or nemesis bracer for speed run/bounty
as the "tough build" takes much longer to perfect then the "speed" one.

I hope I wrote this so does not appear confusing, am trying not to do that :P 
I really wish the thorns damage boost would help smite for the 800% 6 piece bonus but it doesnt the damage difference is astounding and I am far from complete, still do not have a viable endless walk set nor justice lantern nor wrist of invoker

[Caskit 0]

How would a unity ring set up with your follower that has an immortality item compare to the justice lantern for solo play?

[GamingSimon 0]

What do I do if I got 30% on items already. Is it worth having the Hold Your Ground or Provoke Hit Me? If I take one of them the Block chance overstand the other.

[Guest Puzzled Guest]

On 19/11/2016 at 5:49 PM, Caskit said:

How would a unity ring set up with your follower that has an immortality item compare to the justice lantern for solo play?

A moderately rolled Justice Lantern would be better for damage reduction, cooldown reduction, and DPS due to Provoke( Hit Me ), Akarat's Awakening , and Invoker 2-set.

[Guest DougFromFinance]

I'm curious to know what should be applied to your ancient gear with Caldesann's recipe via the cube? Should we be applying strength to everything or is there any benefit to applying vitality to a few pieces?

[DragonWightA 0]

On 12/15/2016 at 10:12 AM, Guest DougFromFinance said:

I'm curious to know what should be applied to your ancient gear with Caldesann's recipe via the cube? Should we be applying strength to everything or is there any benefit to applying vitality to a few pieces?

I think vitality would be ok when using Heart of Iron, but, the damage/defence gained from Strength will likely matter far far more. I know myself I am using Strength as Despair stat bonus, full on Strength for Paragon(and move speed) but now using resist element in pants and chest, cause at high GR the elements especially Arcane hurt nasty bad, if I knew this earlier on I would have focused on the res all for "extra" as well as if had the choice of a specific element for sure would be arcane.

Devs do not seem to care about multiple enemies all using arcane(with pretty much no timer on cast) most of the time causing you to sit on them. they really should limit how many can be cast at same time and/or limit their damage dished out.

Even when played Wizard last season, Arcane with triple my Zader defence against them still hurts crazy bad, most especially when one group knocks you into another, next thing you know is a room full of Arcane laser beams and all kinds of other nasty ouch (then of course there is the often room full of things bringing each other back to life, another thing they need a timer on)

Anyways IMO, I would not waste the despair on Vitality or anything other then strength, the "gain" likely is not at all worth it, and more then likely is far more detrimental then maxing strength.

Str is the raw damage thorns gives would take a massive amount of thorns added via vitality with lower strength to equal the same damage given, I tried a few times via high Vitality and lower Strength, bigger HP pool means nada when still get torn up, granted if you are always in a party, then maybe it might matter, but often for myself pushing GR73+ I am using neme bracer so HoI is not in "play" so the vitality boost is probably even moreso detrimental va the damage/defence gained via Strength.

Put another way IMO, at lower levels you can just use paragon give you the vitality, at high levels, the HP gain(possible thorns) does not "aid" progression and "toughness" compared to the actual gain in raw damage/defence that Str for sure gives you, again, IMO this season gave me a good chance to try different concepts :P 

[DragonWightA 0]

what I use
akrat awakening-saguin vambrace-convection of elements--progression or swap for nemesis for speed run type
(I have a few times went with the crit hit law of valor one for party need speed kill high level quest type deal, or swapped the steed weapon in cube so horse is more or less non stop for bounties paired with wing of angel long arm)
boyarsk chip-stricken-trapped Lgems I dont bother changing any but boon of hoarder which usually swap stricken if need gold
the recommended gear for invoker thorns with hack as weapon and spiker as shield
for passive the only thing I adjust is
wing of angel-long arm of law speed run
decaying strength-hold your ground for progression
I know recommends Heart of Iron but I use Aquilla as armor. I found damage output via saguinary WAY higher, I tried this many times over even jacking Vitality as high as possible, still saguinary much better IMO, especially with big mobs hitting you and decaying active
(more block, more chance it triggers at ~20% chance, I think was broken in one patch, but for sure works as of current 2.4.2)
my build is more or less pure strength at 270 paragon, adding vitality para with 26 move speed, gear wise I use thorns in weapon, diamond in helm and diamond in chest and legs for the res all and CDR. 

[Sableflame 5]

Hello again... my theorycrafting and brainstorming continues.

OK, so I saw the "Can I cube something else besides CoE" question, but I didn't see where an alternative was offered, so here goes.

Cube RoRG, and replace the set bracers with Sangiunary.  Has this been looked at at all?

As Crusader's have a 1 in 4 cycle for CoE procs (Phys/Fire/Holy/Ltng - better than some single element classes, but still only a 25% up time), isn't the proc from Sanguinary a more realistic occurrence when surrounded by foes, as this build loves to be?

It would appear to be a flatter, more predictable damage curve than timing IS cooldowns with CoE procs.  Thoughts?

[Neogeo 0]

12 hours ago, Sableflame said:

Hello again... my theorycrafting and brainstorming continues.

OK, so I saw the "Can I cube something else besides CoE" question, but I didn't see where an alternative was offered, so here goes.

Cube RoRG, and replace the set bracers with Sangiunary.  Has this been looked at at all?

As Crusader's have a 1 in 4 cycle for CoE procs (Phys/Fire/Holy/Ltng - better than some single element classes, but still only a 25% up time), isn't the proc from Sanguinary a more realistic occurrence when surrounded by foes, as this build loves to be?

It would appear to be a flatter, more predictable damage curve than timing IS cooldowns with CoE procs.  Thoughts?

You usually cube Sanguinary instead of sacrifice the damage from COE. HOI is not that much of DPS increase compare to COE. Try to do a simulation to see the different. 

[Guest xtapa]

Is Sanguinary fixed btw? Does it apply to the all buffed thorns damage?

Also i wonder if using lidless with phys damage is an alternative to vo'toyias and doombringer to hack. Any thouhts on that?

[ngrosskurth 1]

How does The Mortal Drama and Ring of the Zodiac in the cube compare to Akarat's Awakening and Conversion Of Elements?  

[Guest Rispir]

Not sure if anyone has mentioned this, but on the stat priority rolls for the Invoker Helm you have all resist listed, but the Invoker Helm doesn't have all resist as a possible stat, or at least mine doesn't, if that's possible?

[Guest xtapa]

7 hours ago, ngrosskurth said:

How does The Mortal Drama and Ring of the Zodiac in the cube compare to Akarat's Awakening and Conversion Of Elements?  

I can imagine a playstyle of the Invoker with Bombardement as Skill , but then, I'd use it as weapon instead of Hack. since you want to have as much cdr as you can get. And since Zodiac only triggers on use of skills that consume primary ressource it will have no use in this build because there arent any consuming skills in it. So from there it follows that Akarats is quite mandatory to play a Bombardement-Version that is a viable alternative.